Denon AVR-4520ci has arrived and is installed.

[PENG]

Based on my experience with the AV7005 and the Integra I tend to believe that the hum was more related to my anthem amps as it was a huge issue with my Integra and what drove me to buy the Parasounds.

Now I understand your comparison, I appreciate the clarification. I finally set up my Audyssey on my Integra and did notice improvement, or at least perceived improvement, with my HT. I was seriously considering the AV8801, but got such a good deal on the Integra I couldn't say no.

One of the 3 power amps connected to the 8801 is an Anthem, the MCA20, for the L/R. So I was and still am puzzled by your humming issue, but I am happy for you that switching amps solved that mystery for you. Regarding the perceived improvement with XT32 over direct and pure direct, I must admit in even a SBT I am not confident I could get it right more than 70% of the time. Like you said, it is just"perceived", not the day and night kind of difference that some people claimed. However small the perceived difference is, I have the feeling that I won't be listening to direct and pure direct as often in the foreseeable future. Ironically this is something I did not foresee.

 

[PENG]

Cos, did XT32 asked you to lower your sub's volume? The 8801/XT32 did to mine. I guess more likely it has nothing to do with Audyssey but the prepro.

 

[surveyor]

I don't intend to nor can I return it now as the 7005 has been promised to someone already. Whether it sounds better or the same, I do like the additional features especially the 11.2 thing; and as you said the better build quality such as the gold plated connectors that I missed since I gave the 4308 away. All but the HDMI I/Os are gold plated. Can you check the HDMIs on the 4520 to see if they are gold plated? It is just an obsession, as gold plated or not makes no difference to sound quality, and 99.999% of the time I cannot see them anyway.

The HDMI inputs on the 4520 are not gold plated.

 

[ichigo]

Gold would not improve sound quality, it would reduce it in fact since it has 24% more electrical resistance than copper. It's chosen because it's "cheap" for the role; there are of course compounds that could be used that have better electrical conductivity and similar oxidation resistance as gold for the money-no-object DIY audiofool

 

[surveyor]

Peng check this out!
Marantz-AV8801-Pre-Amp-Review

 

[Cos]

Cos, did XT32 asked you to lower your sub's volume? The 8801/XT32 did to mine. I guess more likely it has nothing to do with Audyssey but the prepro.

Yes it did ask me to lower the volume on my sub to perform testing,
(this may be due to the fact it was turned up a bit when I received my replacement sub amp from Anthem and I was testing it. I opted for the $75.00 repair vs buying a new sub)

I think this has to do with Audyssey at least according to my Integra Manual.

 

[PENG]

Peng check this out!
Marantz-AV8801-Pre-Amp-Review

Thanks, I did read it. The guy took some nice photos, and I don't believe I could tell a difference between its upscale quality and those of my TV, Sony and Oppo players. It probably could be true that Integra/Onkyo has an edge on paper though, just that I know my eyes/brains are not sharp enough to benefit from those subtle differences. I definitely can see (easily) that it is much better than the flag ship Anchor Bay chip equipped 7005. As for sound quality, I laughed at the reviewer's notion that the prepro sound slightly better. You can tell by his tone he really have no chance of saying that in or after a blind comparison session with the Integra. This is what he said " I will state that for 2-Channel listening I did like the Marantz slightly better than the 80.3 Still very close but still I favored the AV8801." and "The pre-pros just seem to have that slightly better separation than the Receivers. Let's face it though, if they weren't better (even by slight margins in some areas) then they wouldn't make them." When someone says it this way, you can tell Placebo is working on him in full force, so I really respect his apparent honesty, seriously I do. By now I can almost say the same about the difference I think I perceive, between the 7005, 4308, 8801 and even my separate 2 channel system that costs 2X as much. The fact is, if the difference is subtle/slight, it could well be just Placebo at work. My audio memory is just too weak... As I mentioned before, if it wasn't that I have 12 channels on my rack already, I would have saved at least $700 by going with the 4520.

By the way, I hope/know you don't mind me posting on this thread because we all know the two models for sure share a lot components. I also have no intention/need to use the balanced outputs. Even the Audyssey EQ graphs looks exactly the same as my Denon 4308 now, though I like the different look of the 7005. In fact, that's the only thing that I felt they have gone backward on.

 

[surveyor]

Post anytime!

Thanks, I did read it. The guy took some nice photos, and I don't believe I could tell a difference between its upscale quality and those of my TV, Sony and Oppo players. It probably could be true that Integra/Onkyo has an edge on paper though, just that I know my eyes/brains are not sharp enough to benefit from those subtle differences. I definitely can see (easily) that it is much better than the flag ship Anchor Bay chip equipped 7005. As for sound quality, I laughed at the reviewer's notion that the prepro sound slightly better. You can tell by his tone he really have no chance of saying that in or after a blind comparison session with the Integra. This is what he said " I will state that for 2-Channel listening I did like the Marantz slightly better than the 80.3 Still very close but still I favored the AV8801." and "The pre-pros just seem to have that slightly better separation than the Receivers. Let's face it though, if they weren't better (even by slight margins in some areas) then they wouldn't make them." When someone says it this way, you can tell Placebo is working on him in full force, so I really respect his apparent honesty, seriously I do. By now I can almost say the same about the difference I think I perceive, between the 7005, 4308, 8801 and even my separate 2 channel system that costs 2X as much. The fact is, if the difference is subtle/slight, it could well be just Placebo at work. My audio memory is just too weak... As I mentioned before, if it wasn't that I have 12 channels on my rack already, I would have saved at least $700 by going with the 4520.

By the way, I hope/know you don't mind me posting on this thread because we all know the two models for sure share a lot components. I also have no intention/need to use the balanced outputs. Even the Audyssey EQ graphs looks exactly the same as my Denon 4308 now, though I like the different look of the 7005. In fact, that's the only thing that I felt they have gone backward on.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Mr. Owner of the AVP, are you bragging or complaining? If I had one of those you think I would bother with the 8801, 4520 or 4000? Not a chance.

Okay, let me say right now, this is it, no more prepro upgrade, but if I changed my mind I would go back to AVR. By the way, the AV7005 and AVR-4308 sounds the same with or without Audyssey engaged except for the bass, but the 8801 seems to sound more transparent with Audyssey flat on. I need more time before I can say for sure because the difference is still subtle.

Surveyor, you have the 4520 for a while now, are you ready to conclude the effects/benefits of XT32 yet?

AVP-A1HD $7500
AVR5308 $5500

Vs

AV8801 $3600
AV7005 $1600
AVR4308 $2400
Total = $7600

So, if you had just bought the AVP-A1HD in the first place, you would have saved $100.
Or the 5308 in the first place and saved $2100!

And AFAIK NONE of them will sound any differently in Pure Direct 2.0 mode. But w/ Audyssey and bass management, it is open season and fair game.

 

[RichB]

Thanks, I did read it. The guy took some nice photos, and I don't believe I could tell a difference between its upscale quality and those of my TV, Sony and Oppo players. It probably could be true that Integra/Onkyo has an edge on paper though, just that I know my eyes/brains are not sharp enough to benefit from those subtle differences. I definitely can see (easily) that it is much better than the flag ship Anchor Bay chip equipped 7005. As for sound quality, I laughed at the reviewer's notion that the prepro sound slightly better. You can tell by his tone he really have no chance of saying that in or after a blind comparison session with the Integra. This is what he said " I will state that for 2-Channel listening I did like the Marantz slightly better than the 80.3 Still very close but still I favored the AV8801." and "The pre-pros just seem to have that slightly better separation than the Receivers. Let's face it though, if they weren't better (even by slight margins in some areas) then they wouldn't make them." When someone says it this way, you can tell Placebo is working on him in full force, so I really respect his apparent honesty, seriously I do. By now I can almost say the same about the difference I think I perceive, between the 7005, 4308, 8801 and even my separate 2 channel system that costs 2X as much. The fact is, if the difference is subtle/slight, it could well be just Placebo at work. My audio memory is just too weak... As I mentioned before, if it wasn't that I have 12 channels on my rack already, I would have saved at least $700 by going with the 4520.

By the way, I hope/know you don't mind me posting on this thread because we all know the two models for sure share a lot components. I also have no intention/need to use the balanced outputs. Even the Audyssey EQ graphs looks exactly the same as my Denon 4308 now, though I like the different look of the 7005. In fact, that's the only thing that I felt they have gone backward on.

I read the review this way. Placebo effect + I love the latest greatest thing.
The new stuff is always better because I get a deal on it, but the old stuff, which I also got a deal on, is also excellent

I know, I am just cynical sometimes

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I read the review this way. Placebo effect + I love the latest greatest thing.
The new stuff is always better because I get a deal on it, but the old stuff, which I also got a deal on, it also excellent

I know, I am just cynical sometimes

- Rich

I don't call it "cynical". I call it "realistic".

It's the Romanticism vs Realism in the audio world.

And then something in between the two.

The Romantic thinks amps, preamps, and wires, all sound significantly different and the latest is the greatest.

The Realistic thinks amps, preamps, and wires all sound about the same and the latest is about the same as the previous.

 

[RichB]

I don't call it "cynical". I call it "realistic".

It's the Romanticism vs Realism in the audio world.

And then something in between the two.

The Romantic thinks amps, preamps, and wires, all sound significantly different and the latest is the greatest.

The Realistic thinks amps, preamps, and wires all sound about the same and the latest is about the same as the previous.

Yes, but, if there is a difference it likely the Preamp, then the Amp, and then the cable only if it is broken or pure crap

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but, if there is a difference it likely the Preamp, then the Amp, and then the cable only if it is broken or pure crap

- Rich

Pure Direct vs Pure Crap?

Oh, yeah, the processors can potentially sound different for sure.

 

[PENG]

Yes, but, if there is a difference it likely the Preamp, then the Amp, and then the cable only if it is broken or pure crap

- Rich

I can guardedly agree to that, but like ADTG said, in pure direct they (well made prepros/preamps) still sound no difference, not to me anyway. As soon as processing is engaged, differences can be heard. Having said that, may be it is just my room, with and without Audyssey on the difference is still very subtle, but audible. As an example, difference between Dolby PLIIx movie and PLIIx music is huge, relatively speaking.

 

[cpp]

I don't call it "cynical". I call it "realistic".

It's the Romanticism vs Realism in the audio world.

And then something in between the two.

The Romantic thinks amps, preamps, and wires, all sound significantly different and the latest is the greatest.

The Realistic thinks amps, preamps, and wires all sound about the same and the latest is about the same as the previous.

Very well said KemoSabe , But I do know for fact that my tube amp sound different than my ATI....

 

[PENG]

Hello all, can we share some information on how hot your units operate? My 8801 register 41 deg C after watching a Netflix DD+ movie for a couple of hour with video scaling off conversion on. That's with a little PC fan blowing from the top of the enclosure. Acutally sucking, not blowing..

This morning I adjusted the shelf up one notch and so far listening to USB for some time it stays at around 31 deg C at the hottest spot on top right behind the volume knob. The 7005 ran much cooler, to the point I could have done it without the fan. I will take more measurements after watching another movie tonight and will try different speed of the fan as well.

I like to keep it under 37 deg C at all times if at all possible for longevity reason obviously.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Very well said KemoSabe , But I do know for fact that my tube amp sound different than my ATI....View attachment 11914

Well, tube amps are kind of special.

 

[RichB]

Hello all, can we share some information on how hot your units operate? My 8801 register 41 deg C after watching a Netflix DD+ movie for a couple of hour with video scaling off conversion on. That's with a little PC fan blowing from the top of the enclosure. Acutally sucking, not blowing..

This morning I adjusted the shelf up one notch and so far listening to USB for some time it stays at around 31 deg C at the hottest spot on top right behind the volume knob. The 7005 ran much cooler, to the point I could have done it without the fan. I will take more measurements after watching another movie tonight and will try different speed of the fan as well.

I like to keep it under 37 deg C at all times if at all possible for longevity reason obviously.

My 8801 is out or repair due to following:

- Trigger 1 was delivering only 9 volts, Trigger 2 was fine
- Plug issues where wiggling it caused static in the speakers
- Overheating where the center back measured 126F (52C). This was true for the ATI3305 and the Parasound A51 in an open cabinet with six inches between components.

I also disable video processing, disable HDMI control, disable image processing, disable lip-sync, set video mode to Game, and use Pure Direct.
All of the above is designed to minimize video and audio processing.

From everything I have read on AVS, 106F (41C) is reasonable.

My 8801 should be back next week.
I took an old Noctua 120MM fan and wired it up to a USB cable
The fan fine at 5 volts. I'll see if that helps the heat issue.

The 8801 provides me with video switching and a volume knob.
If the volume control is better with the 8801, I will keep it.
If it is the same or worse, I may connect the 105 directly to the amp.
I have been working with Oppo to see if they can incorporate more preamp friendly features.

I would love a great performing, reliable, reasonably priced minimalist preamp. Parasound will not touch HDMI so they are out.
Emotiva is too buggy at this point and too many shiny bits.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow. What's going on with all these heat issues? I've touched my 5308, AVP, and ATI after hours of use, but they are never more than warm to touch.

Now my 3312 is hot as hell.

I guess another difference between high-end vs other-end.

 

[PENG]

Wow, sorry about your trouble with the 8801. I have had the 7005 for 2.5 years without any issues so I am hopeful this also made in Japan 8801 will be trouble free for a very long time too. I am going to do my part by at least keeping it cool, and the rest of it will be just luck I guess. I also don't use any of the fancy features including the video stuff, except Audyssey for bass management and surprisingly I do like the sound with it on now, but not the case with the 7005. I have not tried connecting the Oppo 105 direct to the power amp yet, but through the Cambridge Audio 2 channel preamp I find the 8801 sounds just as good. Thanks for working with Oppo on making it more friendly to use. Please let me know how that goes.