confused with Audyssey

Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
The truth is this Audyssey thing IS confusing. When the test begins, it asks you to place the mic
at the MAIN listening position and at ear level. My main position is not centrally located on the couch
as the onscreen demographic illustrates. The centre of my couch neither reclines as most
nor is it centered between the mains (the L end is),
the demo points to the #1 position as the centre of the couch and asks you to place mic at main position,
then L end #2, then R end #3 and really, that's the sum of my seats and enough for Audyssey to save
settings from. I only have 5 possible seats, 2 of which, won't be used over 99% of the time.
Really only my wife and I will be experiencing the most of this setup, so if I could only test 2 locations
I would do just that, but can see where Audyssey would benefit from a 3rd test.
Any more than that, to my thinking, would skew accuracy for the 2 seats that will experience over 99%
of any form of audio/video that will take place. We do not entertain, rather enjoy being entertained.

I just cannot see adjusting for room deficiencies for seats unused, and applying that overall result
to 2 seats when those seats do not experience the same room characteristics.

Also, Audyssey will not allow rears without side surrounds, so the rears must be selected as
and output from, surrounds, not rear surrounds.

If I configure my AVR to not have surrounds then I cannot select that I have rears.

If I configure my AVR to have surrounds, then I may select 1 or 2 rear channels,
Audyssey then, will not complete the test, telling me to check my connections to the surrounds as they failed to test.

So I now have rears, configured as surrounds, without rears. Is this best?

Note: there are pics in my thread Auditioned Martin Logan Motion Series
showing the setup.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
You're coming at this from the wrong angle, and I think it's based on a misconception about how audyssey works. Where ever your main listening position(s) is/are, you cluster as many readings as your version of audyssey will allow around those positions. Audyssey will than make the correction curve that creates the best listening experience around that area.

As for the rears vs surrounds, you're surrounds are much closer to the actual "surround" position than they are to a true "rear surround" position. I would just set them as surrounds, maybe even move them so that they are a little more perpendicular to the couch and go from there.
 
G

GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
Hi Acoustat. This sort of confusion is quite common with Audyssey.
The truth is this Audyssey thing IS confusing. When the test begins, it asks you to place the mic
at the MAIN listening position and at ear level. My main position is not centrally located on the couch
as the onscreen demographic illustrates. The centre of my couch neither reclines as most
nor is it centered between the mains (the L end is),
the demo points to the #1 position as the centre of the couch and asks you to place mic at main position,
then L end #2, then R end #3 and really, that's the sum of my seats and enough for Audyssey to save
settings from.
Which cushion of the couch your bum is on is irrelevent; the diagrams you see are a generic representation only. If your main listening position is on the left end of the couch, so be it, that's your first measuring position. Pure and simple; done and dusted. Being careful and getting the correct position and height is important on the first position because it's from this position that Audyssey determines distances/delays and channel level trims. Unless you just want to do a "quick 'n' nasty" run, always use all 8 of XT32's measurement positions. The more good data that Audyssey has to calculate it's filters the better the overall result will be.
I only have 5 possible seats, 2 of which, won't be used over 99% of the time.
Really only my wife and I will be experiencing the most of this setup, so if I could only test 2 locations
I would do just that, but can see where Audyssey would benefit from a 3rd test.
Any more than that, to my thinking, would skew accuracy for the 2 seats that will experience over 99%
of any form of audio/video that will take place. We do not entertain, rather enjoy being entertained.
I just cannot see adjusting for room deficiencies for seats unused, and applying that overall result
to 2 seats when those seats do not experience the same room characteristics.
Your thinking seems correct here. Don't measure at unused (or rarely used) seats at all. Concentrate your measurements on where you and the bride sit if it's usually just the two of you. I'd suggest a pattern something like this:
#1 (MLP) @ your seat;
#2 @ her seat;
#3 & #4 @ 18" to the left of #1 and 18" to the right of #2;
#5 & #6 @ 18" forward of the midpoints between #3 & #1 and #1 & #2;
#7 & #8 @ 12" behind the midpoints between #3 & #1 and #1 & #2.​
All measurements should be at the same height, except keep the mic tip for #7 & #8 a few inches above the seat back, if necessary. The idea is to create a "bubble" of measurements around you both. In this case with the measurement positions slightly skewed towards the critical listener (you).
Also, Audyssey will not allow rears without side surrounds, so the rears must be selected as
and output from, surrounds, not rear surrounds.

If I configure my AVR to not have surrounds then I cannot select that I have rears.
You don't have rears; you have surrounds. Surrounds are an audio channel with the speaker positioned accordingly. It's not refering to the configuration of speaker itself.
If I configure my AVR to have surrounds, then I may select 1 or 2 rear channels,
Audyssey then, will not complete the test, telling me to check my connections to the surrounds as they failed to test.
Denon/Audyssey is just following the rules of SMPTE/Dolby/DTS/THX surround sound. This is channel based audio; you cannot have channels 6 & 7 (backs or rears) without channels 4 & 5 (surrounds), either in production or reproduction. Native 5.1 channel content contains L, C, R fronts and L, R surround channel information. Native 6.1 and 7.1 content adds one (centre) or two (L, R) back channels, respectively.
So I now have rears, configured as surrounds, without rears. Is this best?
You actually have surround channel information going to speakers that are less than ideally postioned for surround channel speakers. Ideally, they should be positioned at 90deg to your veiwing axis, but slightly further back is acceptable. Take a look at this link for 7.1 configuration: http://www.axiomaudio.com/home_theater_layout. The light green wedges denote the acceptable range of positions, with the speaker symbol denoting the ideal position. (Lots of other worthwhile reading that article too.) In your situation there, you've got the speakers set up like Texas Headphones. I would swing them around closer to 90deg and, if possible, move them well back. The right to over near the fireplace and the left looks like it needs to be beyond the doorway. Your aim is to facilitate a diffuse surround soundfield.
Note: there are pics in my thread Auditioned Martin Logan Motion Series
showing the setup.
Thanks, I saw them. I might chime in over there too. :)
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
You can have a viable multi-channel AV system with side surrounds and no rear surrounds but not with rear surrounds and no side surrounds.

Don't get too involved with semantics here. That's just the way it is.

Connect your surrounds top your side surround terminals and a lot of your problems will go away.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
Looks like you were onto it fuzz, thanks.

Geigar, once again, thank you for the precision guidence.
LOL @ Texas headphones :D

Not sure how much of the path to that very frequently used door can be blocked
(by fireplace)
but I'll try to get into the furthest acceptable range behind, this evening.
If the L speaker were moved beyond the interior doorway behnd the L end of couch
(L end as listening position) the opposite side would block the doorway by the fireplace.
The couch cannot move to accomodate either, laterally, but will get back with you
and nail it down when I can correct as best I can.

Is there a minimum range, n how close to a seat a surround should be?
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
You can have a viable multi-channel AV system with side surrounds and no rear surrounds but not with rear surrounds and no side surrounds.

Don't get too involved with semantics here. That's just the way it is.

Connect your surrounds top your side surround terminals and a lot of your problems will go away.
That's actually the only way it can work.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hello Acoustat, you have already received some good suggestions here but I would add a few more points.

1) Read the FAQ section on the Audyssey website. Or if you have more time, I posted many links here http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/room-eq-systems-for-avp-avr-users-thread.91544/ that could save you time searching.

2) Follow their (Audyssey's) instructions to the letter, I ran Audyssey numerous times before I was able to see the room response graphs that I wanted to see and I can assure you following their instructions is indeed the best starting point.

3) After you have done the best you can following instructions, you may have the flattest possible room response in your particular setup, but you may not actually like the way your system sounds to you. I like mine mainly because I convinced myself I wanted it closest to what I experienced in live unamplified concert.

In the end you may have to go back and do some tweaking to your own liking but that is a totally different story. Getting the flattest room response should still be a good starting/reference point regardless but that's just my opinion.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
Hello Acoustat, you have already received some good suggestions here but I would add a few more points.

1) Read the FAQ section on the Audyssey website. Or if you have more time, I posted many links here http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/room-eq-systems-for-avp-avr-users-thread.91544/ that could save you time searching.

2) Follow their (Audyssey's) instructions to the letter, I ran Audyssey numerous times before I was able to see the room response graphs that I wanted to see and I can assure you following their instructions is indeed the best starting point.

3) After you have done the best you can following instructions, you may have the flattest possible room response in your particular setup, but you may not actually like the way your system sounds to you. I like mine mainly because I convinced myself I wanted it closest to what I experienced in live unamplified concert.

In the end you may have to go back and do some tweaking to your own liking but that is a totally different story. Getting the flattest room response should still be a good starting/reference point regardless but that's just my opinion.
Hey thanks for the response PENG. I actually was just checking out the 1st page before I stopped by here.
You started a great thread there.

I think my main problem is going to be placement issues, as I am not prepared to suspend my speakers from the ceiling.
Other than true rears, my placement is exceedingly limited for these to be surrounds.

My previous question has been overlooked on 2 different threads or occasions which was a placement question
and is directly pertinent to the rear/surround error in placement. Allow me to ask again, probably worded very similar,
wouldn't rears be more advantageous than side surrounds?
What I've tried to accomplish with this "Texas Headphone" combo of rear and side placement with one channel
is to broaden the rear stage without side surrounds. Side surrounds do not fit my rooms layout.
Either side will create a blocked doorway unless the speaker is right in the ear of the main 2 seats.
Both doorways are used quite frequently. The doorway near the fireplace creates a 3 sided box too.
That's the R channel. The L channel is freestanding in an 15 x 28 room both close to a back wall with rear firing ports.

So before I get fully involved in following all the great advice provided, I really need to nail position down
to a tighter ball park location. Would it be decent, to move these poorly placed side surrounds to the rear,
elevate them, and run them from the AVR as side surrounds? Unfortunately, this is not a dedicated theatre
rather a living room/great room that is also a passageway from kitchen to bedroom/bathroom.
It gets a LOT of traffic, all of the traffic, and getting ahead of myself, I'm going to have a subwoofer
placement issue too. I really shot for the sky as far as my budget would allow, either for "rears" or a sub.
So a sub will have to wait for now. Really trying to build a great uncluttered HT. I know I know, I need 4 walls.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Allow me to ask again, probably worded very similar,
wouldn't rears be more advantageous than side surrounds?
]Apparently the point of my last post was lost on you.

Would it be decent, to move these poorly placed side surrounds to the rear,
elevate them, and run them from the AVR as side surrounds?
Well, maybe not. That's exactly what I said there.

Again, you cannot have rear surrounds without side surrounds.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
]Apparently the point of my last post was lost on you.

Well, maybe not. That's exactly what I said there.

Again, you cannot have rear surrounds without side surrounds.
Sorry Mark, we're not on the same page entirely.
Actually I thought that was in refference to Audyssey testing per my 1st post post here,
at least what I was refering to yesterday was getting the test to complete
in Audyssey without sides.

Today, I'd like to be able to open the door to our sunroom, swings in,
and walk into the bedroom without having to move a speaker everytime.
If the side signal were placed on the rears (not what I was getting at yesterday
as far as configuration is concerned with the AVR) would that be decent, and I take it, not.
High gloss 50# speakers aren't so mobile.

My wife just got in. I'm going to move the couch back to the back wall again
and see what I can setup. Right now at 24" and 110º to both seats, the door by the fireplace
hits the R spepaker and blocks 50% of the doorway.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
see Mark, what I was trying to do
was run rears…as rears, with the rear channel yesterday.
Cannot configure that way, I fully understand and have experienced.

Now I'm shifting the backfield before the ball is snapped
and contemplating running the sides…as rears, from the sides channel.
Sorry that was confusing, was not my intent to do so :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My previous question has been overlooked on 2 different threads or occasions which was a placement question
and is directly pertinent to the rear/surround error in placement. Allow me to ask again, probably worded very similar,
wouldn't rears be more advantageous than side surrounds?
Not really, 5.1 contents are for L/R/C/SL/SR/Sub but not SBL and SBR.

Would it be decent, to move these poorly placed side surrounds to the rear,
elevate them, and run them from the AVR as side surrounds?
Yes, as long as you maintain a small angle such that they are still positioned as surrounds not surround backs and they have to be connected to the surround channels as you already know.

Unfortunately, this is not a dedicated theatre
rather a living room/great room that is also a passageway from kitchen to bedroom/bathroom.
It does not look that bad, let XT32 does its thing, relax and enjoy.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
Would it be decent, to move these poorly placed side surrounds to the rear,
elevate them, and run them from the AVR as side surrounds?
Yes, as long as you maintain a small angle such that they are still positioned as surrounds not surround backs and they have to be connected to the surround channels as you already know.
Behind the couch would not be positioned as surrounds (90-110º)

I know the speakers will test and Audyssey will do its' corrections wherever they are placed
and they will emit sound...
I just was curious if they were positioned as REARS, if I'd be missing a huge audio picture.
Also, the reason I asked the question Mark replied to, about wouldn't rears more advantageous or not,
was just as much placement, as it was a signal decoding question. Again, losing a big audio picture.
I mean hard mixing rears separate from sides and so on. So with your reply PENG
I gather I should forfeit the idea of SL and SR hijacking the position of SBL and SBR
in order to accommodate walking pathways and doorways in the room.

So attempting to stay true to surrounds as surrounds, and moving the couch back to the back wall again
to place SL and SR within tolerances of 90-110º...
I cannot maintain a minimum distance
from side of couch to front of speaker, of 24" (SL) as suggested by Dolby in one of those links you provided.
The surrounds are firing at the opposite mains ATM, sure to change as we tweak them.
I mean I still haven't got placement, so as to follow the link for precise Audyssey setup.
I really appreciate that. Should help immensely.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Behind the couch would not be positioned as surrounds (90-110º)



120 degrees should be fine. You can also place the couch closer to the wall and aim the speakers toward your center seat. Again the angle should be fine for surround channels, it does not need to be exactly within 90-110 degree. You don't have a perfect room so you just to have to make the best out of it.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic

120 degrees should be fine. You can also place the couch closer to the wall and aim the speakers toward your center seat. Again the angle should be fine for surround channels, it does not need to be exactly within 90-110 degree. You don't have a perfect room so you just to have to make the best out of it.
Arighty then, will do. I'm pretty sure the Texas Headphone setup GIEGAR called it, was actually closer
to 135º but I plan on reducing that somewhat, but the 24" rule may be broken or close at best.
Thanks for all the helps, links and all you guys. I'm tempted to open the free centre channel speaker
that came with these towers, but really want to do better with this setup.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
see Mark, what I was trying to do
was run rears…as rears, with the rear channel yesterday.
Cannot configure that way, I fully understand and have experienced.
As I said, but in fewer words in my first post.

Now I'm shifting the backfield before the ball is snapped
and contemplating running the sides…as rears, from the sides channel.
Sorry that was confusing, was not my intent to do so :)
I believe that's also what I said in my first post.

I honestly think you hear what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear.

In as simple language as humanly possible: Connect the towers as side surrounds, but physically locate them where they are. Do not worry about running rear surrounds. Any true "rear channel" information (what little, if any, there is) will be folded into the side surround channels so you'll get all the sound you paid for. This assumes you've set up the receiver correctly to begin with.

But, I honestly believe that, with your high expectations, you're gonna be sadly disappointed after going through all this. Your fine mains will be woefully underutilized, even with that fine amp.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
You don't have a perfect room so you just to have to make the best out of it.
Bingo! Don't worry so much about it. Here's a comment I doubt you'll ever hear, "What the Heck?!?! I just heard that car door slam from behind me and it's supposed to sound like it's coming from beside me!!! What a lousy home theater!!!"

If you're building a room specifically for music/HT, there are lots of very detailed placement instructions. But, if you're putting a HT in your living room, there are constraints over which you have little control. That's what Audyssey is for. Set it up, run Audyssey, check/adjust with an SPL meter, check/adjust again to suit your preference, forget about it and enjoy!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would emphasize the importance of having a decent sub. I don't doubt your big Acoustat 33 can produce some bass but you will be surprised how much more enjoyable movies become when you add a sub, or 2.
 
G

GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
^ Good comment. I believe Acoustat is set on a Rythmik F15 for his next purchase.

Acoustat, the language in my earlier post was fairly strident to get the point across, but I was talking about ideal positioning. I also agree with other posters that you just need to do what you reasonably can with speaker positioning, in your specific situation. You don't want to make the room difficult to move around in and/or jeopardise marital bliss.

There'll probably be a period of settling in where you'll be antsy and want to shove speakers around a few inches, but that will pass. Once you get stuck into enjoying a few good movies with the bride and chilling with some multichannel music, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. :)

Then the sub will arrive... ;) :D
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
Bingo! Don't worry so much about it. Here's a comment I doubt you'll ever hear, "What the Heck?!?! I just heard that car door slam from behind me and it's supposed to sound like it's coming from beside me!!! What a lousy home theater!!!"
I believe I've already experienced that scenario, except the deeming it lousy part :)
As far as an SPL/decibel meter is concerned, I could use some pointers there.

I would emphasize the importance of having a decent sub. I don't doubt your big Acoustat 33 can produce some bass but you will be surprised how much more enjoyable movies become when you add a sub, or 2.
Agreed, and yes the mains supply excellent bass, just not at the SPL it takes to hear the low parts (speech) sometimes
(which would be improved upon with a good centre channel speaker) when the bass parts come back into the mix.
So I'm looking into adding 1.1 ASAP for a true 5.1 system.
^ Good comment. I believe Acoustat is set on a Rythmik F15 for his next purchase.

Acoustat, the language in my earlier post was fairly strident to get the point across, but I was talking about ideal positioning. I also agree with other posters that you just need to do what you reasonably can with speaker positioning, in your specific situation. You don't want to make the room difficult to move around in and/or jeopardise marital bliss.

There'll probably be a period of settling in where you'll be antsy and want to shove speakers around a few inches, but that will pass. Once you get stuck into enjoying a few good movies with the bride and chilling with some multichannel music, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. :)

Then the sub will arrive... ;) :D
LOL yes, I spent quite the evening last night tearing down an $8K reef tank, (pardon the slow reply)
so I'm in the process of shifting hobbies, and am much more knowledgeable on reefing, what and how to test for.

Once I sell my reef setup and get some Christmas funds/bonus together, I should be set to order the sub.
Your language was fully understandable and input appreciated. The "fuss" is all about trying to perfect
and get the best out of what I have. I think most of us have that trait, and I'm just at entry level in the "hobby"
as far as trying to understand placement vs results and many other unexplored points you guys have been down
the road on and are well versed in. Thanks for your patience.

I have the sides at ~90-110º to the seat, with the couch as far back as possible now. Not sure on toe inº.
This setup provides the best unobstructed sound, and without any elevation or tilting for a channel, for a listener.
This does however, impede some with doorways but not as bad as when the couch was more forward away from the back wall.
Here is how we are ATM…
The RS allows the door to open with passage, but the door hits the speaker and some sort
of buffering of the contact point is necessary.
The LS 5 way binding post and wires could be an issue if care is not taken in the middle of the night or whatever (see pic 2).
 

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