comparing Klipsch RP vs Ultras

[2channel lover]

Nice that they recognized that you had invested the effort to do it right, and it makes a lot of sense to leave a good HT in place once setup properly.
On your projection issues, what are we talking? 15 years ago?
I believe the projector market has seen some changes over the last decade!

We sold that house in '08 just before the crash and the HT room was finished maybe 2 yrs prior about a decade is right. I say we got full boat, and we did get our full list price but she made out well too.

I was kind of intent on taking that projector/screen and the 4 theater chairs so that was about $7k not factored into the list price...she wanted it AS IS, but I demanded my B&Ws and the bar fridge and she got everything else in the HT.

I'm sure they're better now as with most AV equipment, but I had the perfect space for it. All the wiring was pre-drywall so it looked clean and professional. I think Pogre would have a difficult install with his vaulted ceilings.

 

[TheWarrior]

This all makes total sense to me as what would is ideal.


So, if the room was not the fundamental problem, why did the Phil3's (which are great speakers in most rooms) sound so poor in my living room? I thought it was the reflections coming from the alcove to the 1/2 bath and MBR off of my LR causing inconsistent reflections between L & R side resulting in jumbled arrivals.
How can you rule out the possibility of the room being the biggest problem?

At frequencies around 200 hz and below, the room is the 'problem'(which I'll show you how to deal with when I drop off your 2x4, I'll program it) Above, for the stereo listening we do, setup must be optimized in each room, which I'm not sure yours were ever more than forcibly placed due to that couch and the deep Phil cabinet not fitting between it and the wall. Add to that, removing the stuffing and receiver only vs external amps, and no 'room correction' run on mine, those setups are considerably different.

 

[Mitchibo]

Hmmmm...lovin' my Heresy III's.

 

[yepimonfire]

At frequencies around 200 hz and below, the room is the 'problem'(which I'll show you how to deal with when I drop off your 2x4, I'll program it) Above, for the stereo listening we do, setup must be optimized in each room, which I'm not sure yours were ever more than forcibly placed due to that couch and the deep Phil cabinet not fitting between it and the wall. Add to that, removing the stuffing and receiver only vs external amps, and no 'room correction' run on mine, those setups are considerably different.

I would add that below 200hz the problem is correctable via EQ, above requires room treatment.

Placing the speakers or subs a bit from the wall, and moving the seating position to 38% off the back wall or front wall can greatly reduce the problem.

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[TheWarrior]

I would add that below 200hz the problem is correctable via EQ, above requires room treatment.

At frequencies around 200 hz and below, the room is the 'problem'(which I'll show you how to deal with when I drop off your 2x4, I'll program it)

Placing the speakers or subs a bit from the wall, and moving the seating position to 38% off the back wall or front wall can greatly reduce the problem.

What problem? And what problem with 'the room' can be solved with a one size fits all solution?

It seems some people think you can run an omni mic at the LP and automatically correct any spike or null without understanding what caused it. You have to measure every parallel surface within earshot and calculate the modal frequency of that dimension. (1130 fps / dimension in feet = resonance frequency easy!) How the Length Width and Height modes correspond to your predicted acoustic measurements and subwoofer placement can also help indicate if a sub needs to be moved or even added to achieve even bass at all seats.

 

[yepimonfire]

Wow, I have a fan!!!

I am glad you love your speakers, I am glad everyone loves the sound reproduction equipment they own. It seems comments I have made to you about correcting your marketing based 'knowledge' with actual understanding of the science of sound reproduction has really resonated with you.

Unfortunately you're still trying the same thing, expecting different results.

Horns are waveguides. I believe I've made a mistake in trying to compare them myself, before, but there it is.

'Controlled dispersion' is a marketing term. Klipsch horns are not constant directivity which is obvious from the amount of toe in required to satisfy people on the same couch with the same sound. Neither you or anyone else has taken measurements that can prove otherwise. Their horns only serve to limit propagation loss over distance, like in a commercial theater setting.

JBL's latest waveguides found on the 3/7/M2 series are true constant directivity horns offering a very broad listening window(coverage). You can prove this to yourself by having someone pivot a single speaker in different directions and hear how little the sound changes. But even that has it's limits as no horn offers a flat-measured directivity index up to 20khz.



When crossing to a tweeter, especially if the design requires a low crossover, there will be a sharp DI increase at the crossover. A proper waveguide can limit this effect. A waveguide can also limit the propagation loss which would be seen in measurements as to how high in frequency the response gets before amplitude reduces. A good dome will sound almost the same at 30deg off axis, maybe a little more, but 180deg?



Hearing direct sound (on axis) plus reflected sounds is natural, not a problem. Harman has performed plenty of tests that found listeners prefer first reflections to be intact from side walls as it contributes to Listener Envelopment and Apparent Source Width. Other tests confirm people can listen through rooms, above the transition frequency using the same speaker in different rooms. So the room is not the fundamental problem.

Budget plays in to everyone's choices. One advantage the JBL 3/7 series offers is to limit your need for amplification as they are all active. Please note that I don't own any Harman products, but I have endless respect for their research division, and have thoroughly enjoyed hearing the above mentioned products. But I would encourage you to go out and listen to anything and everything you can to broaden your perspective. I also encourage you to pick up the latest edition of 'Sound Reproduction - The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms' when it comes out in a couple weeks. You have an obvious passion for audio, why not make the best of it with knowledge derived from decades of research?

I took multiple measurements and posted them on this forum. If controlled directivity and constant directivity are marketing terms, why does Toole constantly reference them. I have read his book cover to cover.

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[TheWarrior]

I took multiple measurements and posted them on this forum. If controlled directivity and constant directivity are marketing terms, why does Toole constantly reference them. I have read his book cover to cover.

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Very good! Then you should know the difference between controlled dispersion and controlled directivity!

 

[KEW]

At frequencies around 200 hz and below, the room is the 'problem'(which I'll show you how to deal with when I drop off your 2x4, I'll program it) Above, for the stereo listening we do, setup must be optimized in each room, which I'm not sure yours were ever more than forcibly placed due to that couch and the deep Phil cabinet not fitting between it and the wall.

I definitely agree that my room setup is less than optimal.

Add to that, removing the stuffing and receiver only vs external amps, and no 'room correction' run on mine, those setups are considerably different.

I'm afraid you don't know the full background.

I did try adding and removing stuffing.

I have powered them with dual Outlaw mono M200's, XPA-2, Yamaha P7000S, and Arragon 4004.

For listening to them with stereo music, I set Audyssey to Bypass L/R (which applies Audyssey to the subs, but lets the speakers play without roomEQ) - this is why I hooked up the Oppo both via HDMI and TOSlink. The AVR changes the parameters based on which input I select.

None of these changes made enough difference to get excited about.

So you can see why I consider the room the root of my problems. I won't argue that my placement of speakers within the room is less than optimal in a fundamentally problematic room.
With four doorways (three of them open to other spaces and one exterior door), I feel pretty constrained in layout given the need to keep walkways open.
I will be delighted if you prove to me otherwise, but right now, I am convinced the the less room interaction, the better!

 

[yepimonfire]

Very good! Then you should know the difference between controlled dispersion and controlled directivity!

Controlled dispersion is controlling the pattern of sound, not necessarily across all frequencies, ie a 90x60 horn may not have a 90° dispersion at 20khz, it could be 30°. Constant directivity involves having a constant pattern across the entire frequency band, if a 90x60 horn is a constant directivity horn, it should have a 90° dispersion pattern from the xover frequency up to the point where the horn or waveguide loses control of the pattern, for example, 1.8khz-14khz for the Klipsch rp-150m. Generally a waveguide or horn rolls off in a shelf like pattern, for example, 1.8khz-14khz may be -6dB compared to 50hz-1khz, but the response should follow the same curve.
I'm sure you have also read that the xover must be at a frequency low enough to equal a ka of 2 in order to maintain constant directivity for example, a 5" woofer must have an xover point of 1.7khz in order to avoid beaming.

I have taken measurements and will be posting them with a review, but the premier series is design for constant directivity and displays constant directivity when measured.

the RP-150m off axis response, IR windowed, is
1.8khz-14khz +-45° laterally, -3dB at 30°, -6dB at 45°, at 45°, 14khz-20khz rolls off at -12dB, indicating that the horn loses control past 14khz. Klipsch follows the ka2 rule. Their 5.25" driver has an cover of 1.8khz, the 6" 160m has an xover point of 1.5khz. the rp-280f uses an 8' driver and has an xover point of 1100hz. The r-14m uses a 4" driver and has an cover of 2200hz etc etc.

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[everettT]

I guess gatorgene, the OP, got turned off by the time page two was started. Somehow we seemed to have went all adhd and ocd on him

 

[DubPlate]

Ha ha! I started talking tv's and my wife pointed out that our stove and fridge are both almost 20 years old and I've been spending thousands on audio...

We bought a new fridge and stove on Tuesday. We take delivery in a couple weeks. Come tv time the gloves are off now!

Haha, I have had that conversation myself.