Class A/B vs Class D amp comparisons

M

Mkegreg

Enthusiast
Based on what you just said, the point I tried to make went whizzing by you. ;)
Nothing went whizzing by me, I know what you are saying, an accurate speaker is accurate, blah,blah blah. I'm talking about listener bias and that no matter how accurate the speaker, myself and the trumpet player may have our own opinions on what is, and what is not accurate.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Nothing went whizzing by me, I know what you are saying, an accurate speaker is accurate, blah,blah blah. I'm talking about listener bias and that no matter how accurate the speaker, myself and the trumpet player may have our own opinions on what is, and what is not accurate.
I'm talking about something being objectively accurate, and you're talking about a subjective analysis of the objectively accurate. The difference is, I seem to know which is which. :p
 
M

Mkegreg

Enthusiast
I'm talking about something being objectively accurate, and you're talking about a subjective analysis of the objectively accurate. The difference is, I seem to know which is which. :p
You are an insufferable douchebag!!!!! I am sure that many here agree! Please ban me from this horrifically pretentious "audio" forum immediately moderator, I can suffer not another minute!
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
You are an insufferable douchebag!!!!! I am sure that many here agree! Please ban me from this horrifically pretentious "audio" forum immediately moderator, I can suffer not another minute!
in·suf·fer·a·ble
inˈsəf(ə)rəbəl/<input src="data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAAf8/9hAAAAcUlEQVQ4y2P4//8/AyUYQhAH3gNxA7IAIQPmo/H3g/QA8XkgFiBkwHyoYnRQABVfj88AmGZcTuuHyjlgMwBZM7IE3NlQGhQe65EN+I8Dw8MLGgYoFpFqADK/YUAMwOsFigORatFIlYRElaRMWmaiBAMAp0n+3U0kqkAAAAAASUVORK5CYII=" type="image" height="16" width="16" style="height: 16px; width: 16px;">
adjective
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pre·ten·tious
priˈtenCHəs/<input src="data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAAf8/9hAAAAcUlEQVQ4y2P4//8/AyUYQhAH3gNxA7IAIQPmo/H3g/QA8XkgFiBkwHyoYnRQABVfj88AmGZcTuuHyjlgMwBZM7IE3NlQGhQe65EN+I8Dw8MLGgYoFpFqADK/YUAMwOsFigORatFIlYRElaRMWmaiBAMAp0n+3U0kqkAAAAAASUVORK5CYII=" type="image" height="16" width="16" style="height: 16px; width: 16px;">
adjective
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  • 1.
    attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]
    "a pretentious literary device"
    synonyms:affected, ostentatious, showy; More

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    </tbody>





1. douchebag
Someone who has surpassed the levels of jerk and *******, however not yet reached ****er or mother****er. Not to be confused with douche.

Mr. DoucheBag - (Your Favorite Martian music video) - YouTube


Can't we all get along, lets just agree to disagree, I play the guitar and have yet to hear the speaker that "really" sounds like what I hear when I play my guitar, but I have only listened to one speaker and that was a pair of double acoustimas cubes, but they were placed in a large kitchen pan to make them sound better...
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
He's talking about one thing, I'm talking about another, but he's trying to tell me he's talking about what I'm talking about. Ergo, there's no disagreement, per se, merely a lack of communication/understanding between two strangers about the topic they attempting to discuss. :D
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
He's talking about one thing, I'm talking about another, but he's trying to tell me he's talking about what I'm talking about. Ergo, there's no disagreement, per se, merely a lack of communication/understanding between two strangers about the topic they attempting to discuss. :D

ohhhhhh now I get it, for a second there, I thought he joined a forum to talk about audio, then found himself over his head in a conversation with someone that knows about the topic, and reverted to negative comments and name calling... I see, he is talking about hot dogs and you are talking about frankfurters, while trying to compare how long they are, or were we going for girth, or maybe an average of the two? Who wins is what I am getting at?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
ohhhhhh now I get it, for a second there, I thought he joined a forum to talk about audio, then found himself over his head in a conversation with someone that knows about the topic, and reverted to negative comments and name calling... I see, he is talking about hot dogs and you are talking about frankfurters, while trying to compare how long they are, or were we going for girth, or maybe an average of the two? Who wins is what I am getting at?
Santa wins. Duh :p
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think Class A/B versus Class-D amps is an interesting topic.
Can someone suggest a good thread for that? :p

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If there are little perceived differences in sound quality, why would one purchase a more expensive amp than any of the Crown XLS series of amps( besides needing multiples for a 5way or 7way system)?
A Crown amp engineer wearing a Mark Levinson shirt will tell you that the Crown amp sounds as good as a Mark Levinson amp. ;)

But the biggest reason is the aesthetics of the pro amps - they are just ugly. :D

You put those Crown XLS amps inside the shells of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, or even ATI, and sell them for the same price as the XLS amps, and they will sell like wildfire. :)

And people will swear up and down that the amps will sound better too. :D
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I am surprised no one has marketed 2, 3, 5, 7 channel class d home theater amplifiers at a cut rate price. I am sure someone can do a 5x200 that weighs 25lbs 4 ohm stable with some quiet fans and less obtrusive control lighting and pleasing aesthetics for $500 or less... That would put companies like emo and outlaw on the street for sure, unless one of them is first to the party of course... I honestly have no problem with my a/b's and like them a lot, I own some pro amps and they are what they are, much smaller and much more power, BUT are they safe for my tweeters, will they catch my house on fire when ran for 2 weeks without getting shut off, will they last a long time, will they reproduce all of my content 20-20K, will they sound terrible at low levels, ect, ect, ect? There has to be a reason these companies aren't jumping on it, Pioneer is supposedly shying away from their class d stuff in home audio products too, and I didn't mind the d3 stuff, my father in law has a 1222k and I like hat avr a lot.. I know most amps have the same sound if they don't add or take away anything obviously, BUT I tend to like how the class t stuff sounds, my tp60 is an amazing sounding amplifier, I compare it to others and at lower volumes where a ton of power isn't needed that amp makes anything i plug into it sing... I like the tripath stuff, why not some more powerfull trpath stuff, looks even cheaper than class d...
here's a nip from an article I found...
A:Digital Switching Amplifiers (commonly known as Class-D) have been around for years. Nevertheless, it is nearly impossible to engineer a conventional Class-D amplifier that handles the full requirement, 20-20,000Hz, for full-bandwidth music reproduction. A Class-D amplifier works by utilizing a high-frequency sawtooth waveform to modulate the music signal (to learn more about how Class-D amplifier works, click here).

The constant presence of the sawtooth waveform, which is very high in frequency spectrum and its inevitable frequency jittering, can mask or corrupt low-level music signal. The output filter designed to filter out noise and overtones caused by the sawtooth waveform adds a 180 degree phase shift to Class-D output stage, causing possible instability and adding distortion due to its own inherent non-linearities.

Additionally, the output filter presents frequency-variant output impedance that can interact with a speaker's complex impedance. Variants of Class-D amplifiers with the addition of Digital Signal Processor claim to improve music reproductions. However, because of their lack of close-loop design, especially from the speaker's terminals, spurious interaction between the speaker's complex impedance and back-EMF with the amplifier's resonant output filter can result in harsh sound reproduction. The fundamental flaws of conventional Class-D amplifiers remain unresolved
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
From what I know of Class D amps the problems listed above had been mostly solved (IIRC). The crown class D is a module from TI that is supposed to be quite a bit better than say the ICE power modules from B&O. Crown has started using them in their higher end pro amps as well. I don't think someone that has built amps that long would risk their high end segment on a product they don't fully trust. I think that if we can get a high quality class d unit like ImcLoud was talking about from a reputable company in the consumer space I think they would gain popularity.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Carvin makes a 4 channel Class D amp for less than $600. And they are made in the USA. Carvin also makes a $600 50WPC all tube amp and you can roll your own tubes.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Ok. Carvin just got even better: Ultimate multi-sub amp. 4 channels at 500WPC/4 Ohm and DSP/PEQ across all channels for $700.
Those carvin amps seem like a great value. The version without DSP is only $519. I'd love to see them measured to see how they compare to a typical class A/B. They look perfect for the NaO Note II RS since two of them would provide the 8 channels needed, plenty of power, and for only $1100 delivered.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have not seen many full measurement reviews of Class-D amps:

Here is the Mark Levinson No. 53 review at HomeTheaterHifi:

Mark Levinson No 53 Monoblock Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

It weighs in at 135 pounds and outputs 500 WPC in 8 ohms and 1000 WPC into 4 ohms.
Price: $25,000
Not what I call a little iron amp. :)

Here we have the Emotiva XPR-1 also on HomeTheaterHifi:

Emotiva XPR-1 Monoblock Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

It weighs 99 pounds and outputs 1000 Watts into 8 Ohms and 1,750 Watts into 4 Ohms.
Price: $$1,349 (on Sale).

The Emotiva measures a bit better as well.

The review on Audioholics is also excellent and clearly better than the Axiom class-D reviewed here.

Emotiva XPR-1 Mono Amplifier Power and Distortion Measurements | Audioholics

Axiom has updated their amps but the 1500 series is $3,130 for a five channel amp.

- Rich
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
It would be great if somebody would send in some class D amps to AH for measurement (and if AH would do it), even if the measurements couldn't be published. Being able to say whether or not they compare favorably would, IMHO, give them a big boost and help dispel some of the negative misconceptions surrounding them.

Based on my own subjective listening, the Crown XLS series amps don't give up much, if anything to some of the class A/B amps I have. Plus my little T-amp sounds great.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
As much as you guys talk about those classs-T amps I think I'm going to have to get one. Not that any of my speakers are revealing enough for me to tell a difference...
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
As much as you guys talk about those classs-T amps I think I'm going to have to get one. Not that any of my speakers are revealing enough for me to tell a difference...
I would highly recommend an SMSL. Even though you're buying direct from the Asians and therefore support will take a little longer and be a bit less convenient, I would argue that you're getting a lot more amp for your money compared to others sold by PE and the like.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I have not seen many full measurement reviews of Class-D amps:

Here is the Mark Levinson No. 53 review at HomeTheaterHifi:

Mark Levinson No 53 Monoblock Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

It weighs in at 135 pounds and outputs 500 WPC in 8 ohms and 1000 WPC into 4 ohms.
Price: $25,000
Not what I call a little iron amp. :)
The Stereophile review of the No53 was interesting. I can't stand Michael Fremer, but JA's measurements and listening tests were an enigma, to use his word.

Mark Levinson No.53 Reference monoblock power amplifier | Stereophile.com
 
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