Changed crossover, huge improvement!

[timmay8612]

I changed my crossover yesterday from 80hz down to 60hz after noticing some really boomy, uneven sounding bass on the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack. I couldn't be happier with the improvement. Everything is cleaned up down there and the sub kicks in silently when needed instead of being on most of the time.

The towers keep up well with the 60-80 range and the transition between towers and sub is far less noticeable.

Is this a good move or does this mean my room has huge problems and I just applied a bandaid fix? Unfortunately I can't move the sub from where it is plus or minus about six inches (although even a 6 inch move to the right helped some, darned corner).

 

[Alex2507]

I think so long as you're happy with the results of your tweaks you're good. That transition from mains to sub is affected by the placement of the mains and the listening position so you get to be the judge. It's probably easier to evaluate with music, namely with Brothers in Arms.

 

[timmay8612]

Brothers in Arms? I'm not familiar with that one, is that another popular test sample like War of the Worlds or Master and Commander around here?

 

[Alex2507]

Brothers in Arms? I'm not familiar with that one, is that another popular test sample like War of the Worlds or Master and Commander around here?

It's a Dire Straits album that I've been using all over the place to audition speakers/systems with for a year or two. It's kind of an inside joke as just about anybody I have met up with has heard the CD until they were sick of it. But music requires more from a sub in a bass integration sense than movies IMO. Movies require more in the way of going low with lots of output ... IMO.

 

[XEagleDriver]

+1

I changed my crossover yesterday from 80hz down to 60hz after noticing some really boomy, uneven sounding bass on the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack. I couldn't be happier with the improvement. Everything is cleaned up down there and the sub kicks in silently when needed instead of being on most of the time.

The towers keep up well with the 60-80 range and the transition between towers and sub is far less noticeable.

Is this a good move or does this mean my room has huge problems and I just applied a bandaid fix? Unfortunately I can't move the sub from where it is plus or minus about six inches (although even a 6 inch move to the right helped some, darned corner).

Timmay,

I had a similar result after using Audessy's recommended x-over of 60Hz for my PSB Images as opposed to the manual adjustment to 80Hz I had done previously.

FWIW: My own theory on this result is the 80 Hz recommendation is derived from THX, and only truely valid when applied to a THX system (THX amp, THX speakers and sub). In many HT cases 80Hz is mis-applied as a more general "trueism". Although, I do agree 80Hz is a decent starting point in the absence of better data.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[timmay8612]

I also find it a bit amusing how much I've turned this thing down since I got it. At first it was like, yay my first real sub, crushing bass! Then it was like, lets back off a bit, but I still want to hear/feel the bass easily. Now, its back to reality, and I couldn't be more pleased. Nothing like improvements that don't cost anything.

I did have another question though. My old-ish receiver (see sig) has distance settings for each speaker, but the minimum setting for the sub is 4 ft., but my sub is actually ~2 feet from the primary listening position. Anything to stress about?

 

[Alex2507]

Anything to stress about?

Not as far as the distance is concerned. You could add a couple of feet to the rest of your speakers to keep the discrepancy consistent but finding a location that isn't corner loaded and near field might be a further improvement. Still, real world is usually filled with compromises. That's a nice sub and rest assured that you'll move that thing and mess with crossover settings and gains some more before you're done.

 

[jostenmeat]

I also find it a bit amusing how much I've turned this thing down since I got it. At first it was like, yay my first real sub, crushing bass! Then it was like, lets back off a bit, but I still want to hear/feel the bass easily. Now, its back to reality, and I couldn't be more pleased. Nothing like improvements that don't cost anything.

If it sounds better, and more accurate, then this is great.

However, LFE channel goes up to 120hz, potentially. So, a lot of people do have 80hz xover, but making sure they leave the LFE all the way up at 120hz, if they have that setting (I do).

Like you, I have my mains crossed at 60hz, as I also think it sounds better. Everything else is at least as high as 80hz, including center.

I did have another question though. My old-ish receiver (see sig) has distance settings for each speaker, but the minimum setting for the sub is 4 ft., but my sub is actually ~2 feet from the primary listening position. Anything to stress about?

Distance is both physical and electrical. Filters/DSP can make your actual distance farther than your physical distance.

Otherwise, adjust your phase. If relying on ears, get a friend to play with knob while you are seated, listening to bass heavy music. The better setting will sound fuller. Switch places with friend, and compare notes.

 

[sholling]

It's a Dire Straits album that I've been using all over the place to audition speakers/systems with for a year or two. It's kind of an inside joke as just about anybody I have met up with has heard the CD until they were sick of it. But music requires more from a sub in a bass integration sense than movies IMO. Movies require more in the way of going low with lots of output ... IMO.

Slightly off-topic but I've been using the first song (I Love Being Here With You) from the Diana Krull Live From Rio Blu-Ray for speaker/sub fine tuning. There is a stand-up bass part that shines a spotlight on any balance mismatch. I imagine that any stand-up bass solo would have the same effect.

 

[bandphan]

FWIW the 63hz frequency has issues in a lot of rooms. Some large peaks some large drops which can call for heavier eq. The peaks combined with phase issues can cause the "boomy" sound. As much as I like auto EQ it doesn't always address the issue correctly. Placement and room treatments may be a better answer.

 

[timmay8612]

If it sounds better, and more accurate, then this is great.

However, LFE channel goes up to 120hz, potentially. So, a lot of people do have 80hz xover, but making sure they leave the LFE all the way up at 120hz, if they have that setting (I do).

Like you, I have my mains crossed at 60hz, as I also think it sounds better. Everything else is at least as high as 80hz, including center.



Distance is both physical and electrical. Filters/DSP can make your actual distance farther than your physical distance.

Otherwise, adjust your phase. If relying on ears, get a friend to play with knob while you are seated, listening to bass heavy music. The better setting will sound fuller. Switch places with friend, and compare notes.

So here is my "I'm still a noob" post of the day... Can you link me somewhere that explains what phase is and what I'm supposed to do with it?

Also, my receiver is kinda ghetto and doesn't have any auto EQ or calibration on it, therefore, I haven't done any kind of EQ on my system. Safe to say I need to?

Should I add two feet to the distance settings for all my other speakers since the sub distance is not correct as mentioned above? What will that change?

 

[bandphan]

So here is my "I'm still a noob" post of the day... Can you link me somewhere that explains what phase is and what I'm supposed to do with it?

Also, my receiver is kinda ghetto and doesn't have any auto EQ or calibration on it, therefore, I haven't done any kind of EQ on my system. Safe to say I need to?

Should I add two feet to the distance settings for all my other speakers since the sub distance is not correct as mentioned above? What will that change?

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/the-marriage-between-the-subwoofer-and-tower-speakers

Changing the relative phase of the subwoofer with respect to the woofers in other speakers may or may not help to minimize unwanted destructive acoustic interference in the frequency region covered by both subwoofer and main speakers. It may not help at all frequencies, and may create further problems with frequency response, but is even so generally provided as an adjustment for subwoofer amplifiers.[21] Phase control circuits may be a simple polarity reversal switch or a more complex continuously variable circuits.

Continuously variable phase control circuits are common in subwoofer amplifiers, and may be found in crossovers and as do-it-yourself electronics projects.[22][23][24][25][26] Phase controls allow the listener to change the arrival time of the subwoofer sound waves relative to the same frequencies from the main speakers (i.e., at and around the crossover point to the subwoofer). A similar effect can be achieved with the delay control on many home theater receivers. The subwoofer phase control found on many subwoofer amplifiers is actually a polarity inversion switch.[27] It allows users to reverse the polarity of the subwoofer relative to the audio signal it is being given. This type of control allows the subwoofer to either be in phase with the source signal, or 180 degrees out of phase.

 

[timmay8612]

So I read over the article, very helpful by the way. It sounds like I may not be crazy thinking that occasionally it seems like I'm hearing the LFE's from my sub slightly ahead or behind the rest of the soundtrack, but only VERY slightly. Is this a phase issue? Or is this more of a DSP issue?

Better yet, apart from the rare experience above, is this a case of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" ? I mean, I'm pretty happy with how it sounds, I'm just curious if I'm missing something that more trained ears would hear? (Apart from the horrible slap echo in my room that I'm waiting on $$$ to fix).

 

[jostenmeat]

So I read over the article, very helpful by the way. It sounds like I may not be crazy thinking that occasionally it seems like I'm hearing the LFE's from my sub slightly ahead or behind the rest of the soundtrack, but only VERY slightly. Is this a phase issue? Or is this more of a DSP issue?

Hard to say. It could be overhang, or some other acoustical in-room phenomenon.

Better yet, apart from the rare experience above, is this a case of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" ? I mean, I'm pretty happy with how it sounds, I'm just curious if I'm missing something that more trained ears would hear? (Apart from the horrible slap echo in my room that I'm waiting on $$$ to fix).

A deeply philosophical question that every AHer must ask themselves on a daily basis.

j/k, well since tweaking is absolutely free, go nuts with it. You'll only learn something in the process. Well hopefully. And IMO, I think tweaking and placement can often have better benefits than blowing a ton of money. Not always, but often. I'd rather an entry level plasma that is well calibrated than a top o line display on scorch. I'd rather an entry projector in a visibly treated room, than a $20K PJ in a room with windows. I'd rather mid level speakers that are properly placed and EQd than top o line speakers that aren't. Etc.

 

[caper26]

the timing issue translates to distance of your speakers. Probably because your sub is closer than what is set (which should mean you hear it before the mains).
Phase would mean the bass is stronger or quieter...basically you don't want the bass from the mains and that from the sub to be cancelling each other out at the listening position. It may or may not make a difference by changing the phase switch. Have someone flip the swtich while listening and see if it makes any difference...

 

[vikebrian84]

Once i get everything set up when I get a new pair of speakers I always go through a bunch of crossovers just to see what sounds right.. I know a lot of people who just set it at 80 and call it a day.