Center Channel position

[Bun-Bun]

Found an awesome boxing day deal, paradigm monitor 11's with monitor center 3 with taxes being cheaper than the monitor 11's are retail ie. <$1700CAD.

But the center channel sits high on my stand that it blocks the TV.

So do I:

1. Raise the TV a few inches by building a small stand for it

2. Build a stand to go over the TV and put the center channel above the TV

I am a little hesitant to raise the TV as I don't like TV's very high but I also don't like the idea of putting the center channel above the TV unless I can build a nice enough of a shelf to permanently put in that brickwork. That is 100 yo brick.

For reference the tweeters on the monitors 11's are at ear level to my seating position. Center on the stand as it is seems to be the best for keeping closest to ear level.

Thoughts? Idea?

HT pron:

 

[TLS Guy]

I would raise the TV. You don't have to raise it much and you won't even notice it.

If you put it above, you will be drilling into that brick work, which could spell trouble.

 

[ImcLoud]

It looks real close did you try moving the pikachu?

I would just go to Home depot and buy some wood blocks and black spray paint... Lift the TV 2-4"s and call it a day...

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Good looking set up Why is there a microwave behind the RF speaker?

 

[DJ.IceRock]

WHEW, Beautiful setup Ya got there.
I would just slide the center channel speaker back with a nice piece of Black Protector foam on it.
(cut to fit)
And just carefully sit the TV right on top.

 

[fuzz092888]

I have to agree with Imcloud on this one. I think this may be the first time I've said that

Anyways, we think that you're overthinking this. Get something that you can live with aesthetically, or even get a simple 2 X 4, sand it down and put a nice black finish on it, or build nice small box and finish it, or have someone else do it, to just get the TV high enough. You can make the task as complex or as simple as you'd like to depending on your aesthetic needs, but really all we think you need to do is throw some crap under the TV until it is high enough

 

[Bun-Bun]

Good looking set up Why is there a microwave behind the RF speaker?

That's a media center.

Here's my setup before the Monitor 11's. I moved the media center onto a stand in the corner as I want to put another cabinet where it was.

Thanks for the comments guys!

I know I am over thinking this, my initial thought was too just to raise the TV 2-4" but thought I would come get some outside input. Thanks!

 

[jostenmeat]

Long answer: If it was my setup, this is what I would probably do.

Lift TV enough to not only clear speaker, but a bit more so as to allow space for something like Mopads that would do double duty by decoupling as well as angling speaker.

I'd apply a dark fabric, ideally velvet to the top of the speaker. You can perhaps run searches for velvet with the username strube for a possible choice that I think is adhesive backed? If you haven't tried this, you have no idea how much better the video is, at least if you're one to watch in the dark; the reflection off a center speaker directly below a TV is something fierce. Everything will look better, including your video games.

Then I'd pull the towers forward, probably swapping the sub with the position of the left main. This will reduce SBIR which could possibly be muddying your response, a bit close to untreated corners. It will incidentally increase the stereo width/angle as a result (I don't know distance to TV, nor distance between speakers, but I bet it could do with more as an intuitive guess, and I'd adjust toe-in accordingly). A tiny side benefit is that all speakers are closer to equidistant, but that is a tiny concern within the scope of things here.

Short answer: I agree with members above.

 

[agarwalro]

I would recommend that you put the sub behind the LF speaker. The room gain will be very palpable and visually it will not detract from the clear lines of the speaker.

Also, bring the center out to where the front edge lines up with the glass edge. This will prevent sound cancellations due to sound reflected off the glass. This will noticeably improve midrange clarity.

And, don't forget to rerun auto setup or adjust the speaker distance settings accordingly .

 

[Bun-Bun]

Long answer: If it was my setup, this is what I would probably do.

Lift TV enough to not only clear speaker, but a bit more so as to allow space for something like Mopads that would do double duty by decoupling as well as angling speaker.

I'd apply a dark fabric, ideally velvet to the top of the speaker. You can perhaps run searches for velvet with the username strube for a possible choice that I think is adhesive backed? If you haven't tried this, you have no idea how much better the video is, at least if you're one to watch in the dark; the reflection off a center speaker directly below a TV is something fierce. Everything will look better, including your video games.

Then I'd pull the towers forward, probably swapping the sub with the position of the left main. This will reduce SBIR which could possibly be muddying your response, a bit close to untreated corners. It will incidentally increase the stereo width/angle as a result (I don't know distance to TV, nor distance between speakers, but I bet it could do with more as an intuitive guess, and I'd adjust toe-in accordingly). A tiny side benefit is that all speakers are closer to equidistant, but that is a tiny concern within the scope of things here.

Short answer: I agree with members above.

SBIR? What do you mean? (I am still a noob lol)

Some measurements:

TV is ~90" from seating position
LF and RF are ~92" from seating position and 102" between each other aimed just behind seating position (I find them just a tad harsh directly on axis).

Are LF and LR supposed to make and equal triangle? Should I move the towers closer to the stand?

Now as far as sub positioning I have had some major challenges in this room. Standing up in front of the TV it has always sounded amazing. Sit down on my futon and sub output drastically decreases and has a major spike around 80Hz (noticed while listening to music with a spectrum analyzer running). I bought the Paradigm mic kit which helped but never fixed the issues completely. I have tried it beside the concrete base, on top of it, either side of the TV, behind the futon, ever where seems to have issues. upgrading to these towers and lowering the crossover to 60hz as really helped and right now I am extremely happy with how it is setup but I am always open to improving things.

That said looking at the following pictures would you still recommend moving the sub back?

I thought keeping it away from that tight corner would be best. The sub is a paradigm SE 10. I thought part of my problem was the fact all that ductwork runs in the middle of the room above where I sit.

Watching movies last night I didn't notice any reflection on the center channel. Though can't say I was looking. I do always game or watch movies in the dark in this room.

Placement

I would recommend that you put the sub behind the LF speaker. The room gain will be very palpable and visually it will not detract from the clear lines of the speaker.

Also, bring the center out to where the front edge lines up with the glass edge. This will prevent sound cancellations due to sound reflected off the glass. This will noticeably improve midrange clarity.

And, don't forget to rerun auto setup or adjust the speaker distance settings accordingly .

I agree it would look better with the sub back there but given my pictures above (and my measurements) would you still recommend I put the sub back there? When I placed it beside the concrete before it had weird spikes though that was before I had the PBK mic kit. Should I move the speakers closer together as well to make and equal triangle?

Moving center channel to front of stand would put it 65" from seating position. Isn't that too close? Could I instead cover the stand in front of the center with velvet or something to prevent reflections?

 

[jonnythan]

The setup is kind of a wreck, to be honest. The CC is positioned way too far back on the stand, for a start. Reflections off that glass surface are terrible for the sound.

I'd get rid of that stand entirely for a start. What exactly is the TV sitting on? I think I'd leave the TV where it is and put the CC on a standalone shelf about 2" shorter than the stand it's currently on. I'd mvoe the media components to two separate small towers on either side of the CC, I think. Or back in a corner or something.

 

[Bun-Bun]

Previous poster mentioned glass relfection as well. Moving it to the front of the stand puts it at 65" from seating position. Does that matter? Could I place a material like velvet in front of the speaker on the glass to prevent reflections?

Replacing the stand at this point is not an option. Cabinets in the corners reduces accessibility more than I would like and this is all the room I have to deal with (plus beyond broke now lol). Eventually I want an A/V closet but thats a future house.

 

[jonnythan]

The problem with moving it that far forward is it'll look weird, and it'll put it a great deal closer than the FL/FR speakers. Velvet will not do much to absorb any reflections. I dunno what the answer is.

 

[agarwalro]

TV is ~90" from seating position
LF and RF are ~92" from seating position and 102" between each other aimed just behind seating position (I find them just a tad harsh directly on axis).

Are LF and LR supposed to make and equal triangle? Should I move the towers closer to the stand?

An equilateral is considered ideal. That said, it is a guide and not a hard and fast rule. Why not to try moving the towers closer and playing with the toe angle. If you don't like it, put it back to original .

Now as far as sub positioning I have had some major challenges in this room. Standing up in front of the TV it has always sounded amazing. Sit down on my futon and sub output drastically decreases and has a major spike around 80Hz (noticed while listening to music with a spectrum analyzer running). I bought the Paradigm mic kit which helped but never fixed the issues completely. I have tried it beside the concrete base, on top of it, either side of the TV, behind the futon, ever where seems to have issues. upgrading to these towers and lowering the crossover to 60hz as really helped and right now I am extremely happy with how it is setup but I am always open to improving things.

That said looking at the following pictures would you still recommend moving the sub back?

I thought keeping it away from that tight corner would be best. The sub is a paradigm SE 10. I thought part of my problem was the fact all that ductwork runs in the middle of the room above where I sit.

I agree it would look better with the sub back there but given my pictures above (and my measurements) would you still recommend I put the sub back there? When I placed it beside the concrete before it had weird spikes though that was before I had the PBK mic kit. Should I move the speakers closer together as well to make and equal triangle?

What you are experiencing is the room's effect on bass frequencies. In come locations they overlap constructively and you get powerful bass. In other locations, they overlap destructively and you get a perceived collapse in the bass. I think you should do the crawling for bass technique to find the optimal location for your sub. Once you have identified a couple or three locations, use the mic kit to fine tune the placement.

Moving center channel to front of stand would put it 65" from seating position. Isn't that too close? Could I instead cover the stand in front of the center with velvet or something to prevent reflections?

No, that will not be too close. All you need to do is adjust the distance setting in the receiver. (The towers can be left where they are too.) The velvet cloth on the glass will not sufficiently absorb sound to have any impact on the reflections.

 

[Bun-Bun]

Ok moved things around and played with different things and here is the result. Moved the towers forward and in a bit. Still uncertain about it I may move them back a bit but leaving the sub behind the towers as it looks much better.

Moving the center forward didn't look as weird as I thought and it changed the angle it was covering the TV so now it no longer blocks the tv if I am sitting up (laying down it still blocks the TV a touch so I may still lift it 2.5").

With the towers and being able to lower the crossover point to 60hz I put the sub back in the corner and it sounds alright now.

Now to figure out why my receiver says the LF/C/RF are wired wrong. I checked all the wiring (including battery trick to test internal wiring) and everything is wired correctly. Swapping terminal's causes the towers to cancel out the sub so its obviously in proper phase so I don't get it.

Oh and to the previous question, the TV is sitting on concrete that I covered in black vinyl. It is the support base for the chimney as the basement was dug out an additional 2ft by a previous owner but that footing needed to be left for the chimney.

 

[agarwalro]

You could get a stand like this. It will allow you to bring the TV closer to your couch and you will also be able to get rid of those unsightly wires.

 

[jostenmeat]

SBIR? What do you mean? (I am still a noob lol)

Some measurements:

TV is ~90" from seating position
LF and RF are ~92" from seating position and 102" between each other aimed just behind seating position (I find them just a tad harsh directly on axis).

Are LF and LR supposed to make and equal triangle? Should I move the towers closer to the stand?

Now as far as sub positioning I have had some major challenges in this room. Standing up in front of the TV it has always sounded amazing. Sit down on my futon and sub output drastically decreases and has a major spike around 80Hz (noticed while listening to music with a spectrum analyzer running). I bought the Paradigm mic kit which helped but never fixed the issues completely. I have tried it beside the concrete base, on top of it, either side of the TV, behind the futon, ever where seems to have issues. upgrading to these towers and lowering the crossover to 60hz as really helped and right now I am extremely happy with how it is setup but I am always open to improving things.

That said looking at the following pictures would you still recommend moving the sub back?

I thought keeping it away from that tight corner would be best. The sub is a paradigm SE 10. I thought part of my problem was the fact all that ductwork runs in the middle of the room above where I sit.

Watching movies last night I didn't notice any reflection on the center channel. Though can't say I was looking. I do always game or watch movies in the dark in this room.

1. Speaker Boundary Interference Response SBIR GIK Acoustics

2. Not necessarily, but I think equilateral is a good starting point; at the very least it gets people to open up their mind to greatly increasing the spread; lots of folks have the speakers way, way too close.

3. Only if it sounds better. Try this for fun: Just run stereo only. Personally I might experiment with pulling them out forward even further. It very well might sound better with speakers closer together, I didn't realize how close you were; this also depends on what speakers you're using. See where you get the best imaging; it sounds like the singer/music is plop right between the speakers, and perhaps sounds like it's coming from behind the speakers. At least you will know where the best stereo positions are. IMO you can pull the speakers further out though, because it seems like you probably run a center speaker 99% of the time; it can fill the hole left by speakers that are too* far apart.

4. It sounds like you're already doing due diligence with sub placements. I would definitely trust your experiments over my own armchair diagnosing.

As for ductwork, I have had excellent success reducing high* frequency resonances by placing treatments at the upper part of my screen wall. I had more success than I was even hoping for. I am very doubtful you could easily reduce bass energy transmission to the duct work though.

For the center speaker's light reflections, I guess YMMV. I have applied dark fabric to the top of a center before, and I would call the difference dramatic. However, I'm also someone who liberally uses windown tint on most of my electronics. If you do that as well, put all electronics to lowest dimmer setting, you'd be quite surprised at how much more immersive you can get it to look. You could start dialing down those brightness settings in your video game menus too, or whatever it takes to see all the shadow detail your display is capable of in the most ideal settings.

65" is indeed pretty close, but I have no reason to believe it is *too* close. Adjust level. How does it sound? Good luck!

 

[Bun-Bun]

You could get a stand like this. It will allow you to bring the TV closer to your couch and you will also be able to get rid of those unsightly wires.

I am building a stand to raise the TV a bit and with that I will have a place to route the wires.

1. Speaker Boundary Interference Response SBIR GIK Acoustics

2. Not necessarily, but I think equilateral is a good starting point; at the very least it gets people to open up their mind to greatly increasing the spread; lots of folks have the speakers way, way too close.

3. Only if it sounds better. Try this for fun: Just run stereo only. Personally I might experiment with pulling them out forward even further. It very well might sound better with speakers closer together, I didn't realize how close you were; this also depends on what speakers you're using. See where you get the best imaging; it sounds like the singer/music is plop right between the speakers, and perhaps sounds like it's coming from behind the speakers. At least you will know where the best stereo positions are. IMO you can pull the speakers further out though, because it seems like you probably run a center speaker 99% of the time; it can fill the hole left by speakers that are too* far apart.

4. It sounds like you're already doing due diligence with sub placements. I would definitely trust your experiments over my own armchair diagnosing.

As for ductwork, I have had excellent success reducing high* frequency resonances by placing treatments at the upper part of my screen wall. I had more success than I was even hoping for. I am very doubtful you could easily reduce bass energy transmission to the duct work though.

For the center speaker's light reflections, I guess YMMV. I have applied dark fabric to the top of a center before, and I would call the difference dramatic. However, I'm also someone who liberally uses windown tint on most of my electronics. If you do that as well, put all electronics to lowest dimmer setting, you'd be quite surprised at how much more immersive you can get it to look. You could start dialing down those brightness settings in your video game menus too, or whatever it takes to see all the shadow detail your display is capable of in the most ideal settings.

65" is indeed pretty close, but I have no reason to believe it is *too* close. Adjust level. How does it sound? Good luck!

1. Ok I think maybe I was experience abit of SBIR negatively that got resolved by moving the speaker away from the wall/concrete. little less bottom end response but overall better imaging I beleive.

2. yes I quickly learned how much it can help moving the speakers further apart and toeing them in. Huge effect on imaging and overall response.

3. I actually spent most of the day yesterday listening to it in stereo. Auto setup on my receiver only uses the SUB from a source with LFE channel in it. Tempted to leave it that way. There were only a few tracks I missed it. I listen to music entirely 2 channel. I was going to stick with a 2.1 setup until I found this boxing day sale. Now movies sound good too! lol

4. Yes I have spent a significant amount of time trying to place the sub though I more or less "settled" with how it is now. I would be interested in hearing more about your screen wall treatments sounds like that could help my situation as well as I have/had high frequency resonance as well. Helps now that it is crossovered at 60hz though.

Finally the Center sounds good moved to the front of the stand, did not realize how much the reflections were effecting it until I moved it, never have had a good center channel before so anything it does is huge improvement over what I know lol. After moving everything the RF and LF are closer as well so level only need to be turned down a little bit. And after the AUTO program ran my sound stage is more centered then I ever hoped for in this weird room. Next I need to build some shelves along the sides of the room for storage and the place the surrounds better.

 

[jostenmeat]

4. Yes I have spent a significant amount of time trying to place the sub though I more or less "settled" with how it is now. I would be interested in hearing more about your screen wall treatments sounds like that could help my situation as well as I have/had high frequency resonance as well. Helps now that it is crossovered at 60hz though.

I should have been a bit more specific, perhaps. I particularly aimed for the upper part of the screen wall because I KNEW there were resonances emanating from there. How? I test all my rooms by yelping all sorts of sounds with my voice while walking around, sometimes directly at walls, corners, ceilings, and also clap to listen for any kind of "slap echo". You can also bang pots and pans! I could easily get a bad slap echo at the area in question, and when I put a few treatments up there, it was pretty much solved.

IOW, doing this in your place might not have anywhere close to the impact it did for me. If you do try some treatments, at least you could experiment with a variety of places. I would contact the pros with more experienced and specific placements for your particular situation.

 

[giliakareo]

And just carefully sit the TV right on top.