Building Absorption Panels- Idea's

M

Martycool007

Audiophyte
Hey guys I am looking to build a set of absorption panels for the first reflection points in my music listening room. I will add bass traps later and for now I want to focus on the absorption panels. I have some general questions that I was hoping you guys could answer for me.

1. Is this roxul material good, 47 inch high x 23 inch wide x 5 & 1/2 deep? Or what dimensions should I get?

2. Is an air gap needed between the roxul and the back of the panel?

3. As far as the frame goes, would it be ok to build a frame using 2 x 4's as the top, bottom, and sides, and then use some light plywood on the back? Is regular mdf or plywood ok to use for the backing? Or does the backing need to be some sort of other materal?

4. How thick do I need to get the roxul? Is 3 inch thickness ok or should I shoot for 5 & 1/2 inch thickness?

5. I what to use Seersucker fabric to cover these with, is that ok? Does the fabric need to be any certain kind or does it not matter? I wasn't sure if some sort of acoustical fabric is needed?
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I used the 4" thick Roxul for mine and framed them with 2x3s you can check out the pics I just posted earlier today. They came out great and were easy to do. I had a total of 8 sheets of the size you mentioned 47 x 23 x 4. I also used a peg board to put on the back of the frames also. It was a pretty easy process and it really improved SQ in my room.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Hey guys I am looking to build a set of absorption panels for the first reflection points in my music listening room. I will add bass traps later and for now I want to focus on the absorption panels. I have some general questions that I was hoping you guys could answer for me.

1. Is this roxul material good, 47 inch high x 23 inch wide x 5 & 1/2 deep? Or what dimensions should I get?

2. Is an air gap needed between the roxul and the back of the panel?

3. As far as the frame goes, would it be ok to build a frame using 2 x 4's as the top, bottom, and sides, and then use some light plywood on the back? Is regular mdf or plywood ok to use for the backing? Or does the backing need to be some sort of other materal?

4. How thick do I need to get the roxul? Is 3 inch thickness ok or should I shoot for 5 & 1/2 inch thickness?

5. I what to use Seersucker fabric to cover these with, is that ok? Does the fabric need to be any certain kind or does it not matter? I wasn't sure if some sort of acoustical fabric is needed?
From the dimensions you've given, I assume you're talking about the Roxul "ComfortBatt". I don't know if there is any STC (Sound Transmission class) ratings for that insulation. I just finished making some absorbers using Roxul "Safe n' Sound". That stuff does have STC ratings and it can be quite cost effective when compared to the price of the rigid compressed panels, assuming you can even find that in your area - I couldn't.

From the research I did - and I encourage you to do some yourself - the low-density batts, like Safe n' Sound, can be really useful with low frequency problems. You just have to use a lot of it - like a double layer of 3" insulation, as a minimum. That said, I don't know if I'd use it for first reflection points, because of the bulk. In fact, I only found it used for bass traps, which is what I'm using it for. I have mine behind an acoustically transparent false wall and projector screen, so the bulk can't be seen. I used a lot to make "superchunk" bass traps in the front corners and a pair of 6" think panels behind my main speakers.

Another thing is, with low-density material, don't use an air gap behind it. Air gaps are used with the compressed, higher density material. For a mounting frame, I used pegboard, like Jeff R. did, but I didn't use a perimeter frame. I just wrapped the insulation with fabric and stapled it to the pegboard. Because the insulation is soft, the edges and corners compress a little bit, giving it a bit of a pillow appearance, but I didn't care about that, as it's hidden behind my false wall. If you want to make a perimeter frame, you certainly don't need to use 2" lumber! If you are going to wrap the whole thing in fabric, I would just use 1/4" plywood for the whole thing - back, sides, top and bottom. Don't make it heavier than necessary! Just paint the perimeter a colour similar to the fabric, to make it less visible. If you want to just cover the insulation and leave the frame exposed, I'd use 1/4" MDF and paint it whatever colour strikes your fancy - it all depends on what you want. just remember that it doesn't have to be heavy lumber!

As for the fabric, I don't know what seersucker is. But, for first reflections, we're talking higher frequencies, so the fabric should breath easily. Hold a piece up to your face and if you can breath through it easily, it should be good.

I got some good info at Studio building / acoustics - Gearslutz.com

Good luck with your project!
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Agree with GO-NAS, when I used the 2x3 is was overkill, however pricing on a 2x3 is very cheap, I doubt I spent much more than $25 dollars on wood. Then it also made it easy to hang the panel by having a sturdy top frame to work with.

From a fabric stand point a lot of what you read will indicate using things simlar to burlap, however if you need to satisfy any type of WAF then using the "blow" test as mentioned is what I did and it worked as far as I can tell with my app.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Here's the ones I built.

Searching out nibhaz's latter posts will yield a ton of info on sound panels.

STC are not the thing to pay attention to regarding sound absorption panels. NRC however is. The Roxul product will have a lbs/cubic foot number that is important. The 4 lb stuff isn't what you're after but rather the 6 lb or 8 lb density.
 
T

Tubamark

Enthusiast
1. Is this roxul material good, 47 inch high x 23 inch wide x 5 & 1/2 deep? Or what dimensions should I get?

2. Is an air gap needed between the roxul and the back of the panel?

3. As far as the frame goes, would it be ok to build a frame using 2 x 4's as the top, bottom, and sides, and then use some light plywood on the back? Is regular mdf or plywood ok to use for the backing? Or does the backing need to be some sort of other materal?

4. How thick do I need to get the roxul? Is 3 inch thickness ok or should I shoot for 5 & 1/2 inch thickness?

5. I what to use Seersucker fabric to cover these with, is that ok? Does the fabric need to be any certain kind or does it not matter? I wasn't sure if some sort of acoustical fabric is needed?
1) Yes. L x W dimensions not critical; placement and total coverage is what matters.
2) Gap 'needed'? No. Highly recommended? YES.
3) If mounting against wall, backing is moot. If airspace, I'd suggest fabric, chicken wire, or nothing. Let sound get into the wool. This approach increases the effective absorption-per panel. A gap (1-2") also helps offset the diffraction effects that reflective framing can cause by allowing energy to flow around (the backside) of the panel. A deep frame set against the wall creates a pressure zone, and some will diffract around the front - not good.
4) Depends. I would recommend no less than 3". Deeper is always better - Don't let the hucksters of 1" panels or foam tell you any different.
5) Most mid-to-lightweight fabrics are okay. If it passes the blow-thru and kinda-see-thru Tests you will be fine. Seersucker is very light, no problem.

-- Mark
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Here's the ones I built.

Searching out nibhaz's latter posts will yield a ton of info on sound panels.

STC are not the thing to pay attention to regarding sound absorption panels. NRC however is.
Yes, you're right.:p The point I was making is that I'm not aware of any acoustic testing of the thermal insulation, as the dimensions stated by the OP implied to me that was what he planned to use.

The Roxul product will have a lbs/cubic foot number that is important. The 4 lb stuff isn't what you're after but rather the 6 lb or 8 lb density.
For treating first reflection points, yes. Using Safe n' Sound might not be very suitable for that application.

I have to ask the OP: what is it you're trying to fix? In his book "Sound Reproduction - Loudspeaker and rooms", Floyd Toole favours leaving first reflection points reflective, but adding absorption to the front wall.
 
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T

Tubamark

Enthusiast
I'm not aware of any acoustic testing of the thermal insulation, as the dimensions stated by the OP implied to me that was what he planned to use . . . . Safe n' Sound might not be very suitable for that application.
Thermal insulation is GREAT. The only reasons to not use it is if 1) You need a rigid, frameless panel, or 2) you have to have a panel only 1-2 inches thick.

Contrary to another poster said about Roxul densities, when using thicker panels a lower density works better. The density "rule" that keeps being cited over and over only applies to thin absorbers.
An oncoming soundwave interacts with the total net impedance of the panel. A 4" 8# density panel has double the resistance (half the permeability) of a 4" 4# panel

Think of it this way: if you crush a fiberglass batt enough you'll get a rock-hard reflective surface. The more densely packed together fibers are, the more difficult it is for sound to enter the panel (it has to be porous).

http://http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12645

http://http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Thermal insulation is GREAT. The only reasons to not use it is if 1) You need a rigid, frameless panel, or 2) you have to have a panel only 1-2 inches thick.
Again, I have not seen any acoustic properties - STC or NRC - listed for the thermal insulation. Safe N' Sound (which is not a thermal insulation)does have such measurements. If you are using the thermal insulation, it is complete guesswork as to what effect it might have on a room's acoustics.

Contrary to another poster said about Roxul densities, when using thicker panels a lower density works better. The density "rule" that keeps being cited over and over only applies to thin absorbers.
It might be just splitting hairs, but I would phrase that the other way round: If using panels of lower density, thicker is better. I questioned the suitability of using such insulation for first reflection points because of the need for thickness. Of course, it all depends on what is tolerable to the OP.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Contrary to another poster said about Roxul densities, when using thicker panels a lower density works better. The density "rule" that keeps being cited over and over only applies to thin absorbers.
Here's where I got my info:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/706671-post40.html

You'll notice that as the density of the OC 700 Series fiberglass increases so does it's NRC with the 2" thickness. I'm assuming that mineral wool will act the same way.

Regarding the lower density having a better NRC at low frequency the following post is where it's said to be true when used as a corner trap where the thickness is at 9".

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/706428-post29.html

If I was currently interested in building panels I would be reading that whole thread over.

I understand that density isn't a factor in STC, only that the wall cavity is filled but even there the mineral wool (the low density 4ld/ft^3) does that better than the fluffy pink stuff. Here in this thread the OP is not trying to reduce transmission but reflection of sound.

That link didn't work for me.

I think this is what you were trying to show:

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

Lots of info all around. I think GN's quest for mineral wool coefficients are in that. Now I gotta run. Is some of the info I dragged up conflicting with Savant's stuff? Gotta run. :)
 
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J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I used the 4" Roxul R-15 version which was categoried a very good for sound absorbancy. Based on my reading, if you use the 4" no need to put gaps in or keep off the wall a certain distance or anything. I think the total package of 8 was only like $40 from Lowe's. You will likely need to order it though, it not normally stocked at the stores.
 
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