Best Sub-compact Subwoofer out there

inmypjs

inmypjs

Junior Audioholic
My checklist include:

Definitive Technology Supercube II
Velodyne SPL-800 Series II
Rel Acoustics Quake (Q-108E)
MJ Acoustics Reference 100, 150 or 200

Anyone has experience with the abovementioned subs with regards to playing music and watching movies. Thanks.
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
I've heard the Velodyne SPL-800 and it sounds very, very good; but it seems a little bit expensive (almost 1000 here in México). Why don't you try the Rocket UFW-10 that Audioholics recently reviewed? It seems very nice.
(Apparently, the direct marketing enterprises like SVS, Axiom, etc. are making pure "bang for the buck" products).
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Sunfire True Subs are fantastic in my opinion.

-Chad
 
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drunkonjack

Audiophyte
I would second the Rocket UFW-10 it is a great little sub and the WAF is another plus
 
howie85

howie85

Full Audioholic
I think the Velodyne was reviewed on this site, im sure you will see it if do a search for it. I have seen one they are pretty small as subs go. Can't speak on the others.
 
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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Having the Velodyne HGS-10, which is basically a 12" cube, I can say the SPL-800 is most likely a very good woofer. Check for reviews though.
 
inmypjs

inmypjs

Junior Audioholic
Thx for the replies, but I need more opinions on the others. a 12" driver sub doesn't cut it. The sub will be located next to the 32" Sony VVega behind the left speaker and anything bigger than a 12" width/or depth just will not fit. Location of the sub is extremely limited (nowhere else I can place it having a small living room space and other constraints). The Rocket sub may be a little big plus it clashes with the decor (i'm not a big fan of rosewood) especially that my speakers, furniture, and trims all have natural cherry finishes. Black would be ok. The Sunfire, i read, is very boomy and it's not something one would like to use for listening to music. I use my setup 60/40 in favor of HT.




 
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soundjunkie

soundjunkie

Audioholic Intern
How about the new sub from Outlaw? I personally haven't heard it, but I know I've read a lot of good things about it. Not sure of the size though...

Anybody had much experience with them? :confused:
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I have a Velodyne HGS-10. It is easily in the best sub class of any that I have heard. The Sunfire True being right up there as well. I have the arm of my couch about 6 inches off the wall and it fits nicely between the wall and the couch. Not the best placement for sure, but completely invisible in the room since it is tucked away as it is.

The DD-10 should be even better, but the HGS-10 is available on eBay now for a reasonable price. Less than 12" to a side.
 
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mwheelerk

Junior Audioholic
Don't Forget The M&K

inmypjs said:
Thx for the replies, but I need more opinions on the others. a 12" driver sub doesn't cut it. The sub will be located next to the 32" Sony VVega behind the left speaker and anything bigger than a 12" width/or depth just will not fit. Location of the sub is extremely limited (nowhere else I can place it having a small living room space and other constraints). The Rocket sub may be a little big plus it clashes with the decor (i'm not a big fan of rosewood) especially that my speakers, furniture, and trims all have natural cherry finishes. Black would be ok. The Sunfire, i read, is very boomy and it's not something one would like to use for listening to music. I use my setup 60/40 in favor of HT.





Don't forget the M&K 700. Very compact, powerful and clean looking and it is shielded so placement near a tv is not a problem.
 

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inmypjs

inmypjs

Junior Audioholic
James EMB-1000, Martn Logan Grotto, Paradigm Seismic 10...these would have been in my shortlist but I can't afford them. Budget is below $750. The HGS-10 though a great sub, I know, is not magnetically shielded so this would create video interference considering that the sub will be placed close to my TV (although I'm not sure yet which ones on my list are not magnetically shielded, maybe someone can help so I can narrow down my list). The M&K MX-700, also a great sub, is a little big (14.5x17.5x12). In fact, the VX-100 model is a better fit but it has been discontinued and was actually outperformed by the Pinnacle Baby Boomer:

http://www.avalonav.com/batik.cgi?switch=content:0&source=products/babyBoomer_052902.html

The very spartan-looking Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Junior is very dimunitive (9"x9"x9") yet it goes deep (22Hz @ -3dB) and it outputs a lot of bass (108dB peak), probably because of its 1500W amp. I may have to include this on my list but I'm not so sure how musical this sub is plus I heard that it moves around a lot.



Does anyone know if the Sunfire and the Pinnacle models I mentioned above have magnetic shielding?
 

plhart

Audioholic
Below 100Hz typical home theater room dimensions vs. the frequencies generated by the subwoofer make the two function as one inseparable system. Having a specific spot into which a subwoofer will be placed is a good thing as far as WAF and can even be helpful in coupling the sub to the room for some "free gain" because of the boost effect a sub gets when it is near a wall or (even more so) in a corner.

The problem that usually arises however is that there will now be a pronounced bass peak (the dreaded one-note bass) at the listening position always present because the sub is working into the room in the most complementary manner at that particular frequency. You of course will not know if you have that situation until the sub is bought and installed. This is why I always recommend a sub which has tunability like the AV123 product. (Availabe in more finishes than Rosewood BTW)

Other parameters to keep in mind when you're shopping for small subs:

1. A small sub with low power will either not play very loud or it will play loud with very high levels of distortion. (Which BTW, at levels even over 20%THD is perceived by many of us as pleasurable. Sounds, "Rounder, fuller".) Or it will play only in a narrow (high bass frequency) bandwidth, say 70Hz-85Hz which requires far less power to achieve a high SPL. This is the typical MO for most HTIBs.

2. Some super high power subs, though they have the power to produce a full bandwidth ~30Hz-100Hz frequency response are engineered to produce only a very narrow frequency range so they'll "play louder". Be aware. You could be back in that one-note bass trap again but this one you can't get out of. Narrow bandwidth is narrow bandwidth. It's engineered into the product.

3. As with everything in life and especially with engineering subwoofers, there is no free lunch. Small box subs require lots of power carefully boosted at specific frequencies to achieve a flat response in a 4pi anechoic chamber environment. Once out of that environment and put into a room, placement near walls or corners or in special cabinets will generally produce some sort of single peak anomaly at the listening position. Be prepared...
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I'd be especially leery of an extremely small sub with an extremely large built in amp. As Patrick stated, Hoffman's Iron Law dictates that a sub can be small or sensitive and play low- but not both. You can get low bass & high volume out of a small box only by running in a LOT of power. This puts a good deal of thermal stress on an amp and a lot of mechanical stress on a driver. This can result in a tremendous amount of vibration being transmitted to the amp. To me, this is a recipe for premature failure, and before I went to passive subs with outboard amps, I left a trail of burnt, smoking cubes in my wake. ;)

Siting the sub close to your listening location can sometimes help. Volume drops off at a rate inverse to distance (although there's still some room gain), so putting the near you can increase the perceived power. Sounds like your location is predetermined, though, so that may be out.

I agree that buying a sub with a built in parametric EQ (or adding one later) is almost mandatory. You can do without, but unless you get a serendipitously wonderful interface with the room by blind luck, you'll never know how good your bass can be til you EQ it. The Rocket sub has a built in EQ, as does the Infinity line of ROBAS subs. The Infinities have gotten good reviews, and if one will fit where it must go they'd be a good choice.
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
inmypjs said:
The Sunfire, i read, is very boomy and it's not something one would like to use for listening to music.
All subwoofers are boomy, that is the nature of what they reproduce. Find the best subwoofer every reviewed and listen to it without any speakers and see how it sounds. Punch comes from the midrange. Also, one subwoofer does not reproduce movies any better than it does music or vice versa. It's the same work. Try not to by on myths you hear from idiots online.

Someone else recommended the M&Ks. M&K makes great subs as well. If that M&K he recommended is too big... You could buy a K10 and K11 and do a "push-pull" setup. Those little subs sound fantastic too. I just bought a K10 for my mini-studio.

mksound.com

They have pretty good output, but they are just 8" drivers. So, nothing spectacular (but a lot more than you would think out of that little product)...but they are absolutely fantastic sounding... and if you buy a K11 and K10 they do a pretty cool push-pull action that does do some respectable output!

-Chad
 
inmypjs

inmypjs

Junior Audioholic
Quote from Home Cinema Choice:
The ugliest noise in the world, in my humble opinion, is the low-frequency boomy mess that overflows from cars and is felt as a dull throb in the cranium five minutes before the vehicle cruises into view. The second worst is the noise from home cinema systems with boomy or otherwise inferior quality - sometimes even superior quality - subwoofers that are adjusted, deliberately in many cases, to give more bass than the unfortunate subwoofer will deliver. Often they have been set up on the principle that if it is not thumping around obtrusively in your face, then it has no business being there.
That excessive, overpowering bass that drowns out the other frequencies is something I dread. I'm not experienced with subwoofers but I can definitely distinguish tight clean bass. Having a small room, I am not all too concerned on how much slam or how loud it will go. I'm more into how deep it will go. For such small enclosures, I know they are limited in that aspect. The subwoofer industry do not have a standard in measuring low frequency response (how far down a sub can go and still be truly flat and audible) which makes it even more confusing, although, the most common figures seem to be -3dB or -6dB, some do not even quote the SPL ouput.

The Rocket, btw, is not shielded so that's another point against it and at 13" cube it's going to rub against my tv rack and the baseboard of my wall behind it. As for the M&K K-10/K-11 setup, they are shielded but Sound and Vision magazine doesn't seem to be very impressed plus you have to connect it to a 200w receiver (mine is only 120w).

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?print_page=y&section_id=3&article_id=290&page_number=1&preview=

As for the required parametric equalizer for a sub, pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between that and a variable phase controller?

Rob, I was wondering if you have tested the Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Jr. or any of the subs in my shortlist because they claim that they have solved the very problem that you addressed in small cabinets. The Velodyne subs (SPL-800 & SPL-1200 II) were also reviewed by Audioholics and I read that the reviewers were pretty much impressed.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/VelodyneSPL800-p1.html
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/Velodyne_SPL-1200_SeriesII_p1.html
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_1/mk-xenon-k-sub-2-2002.html

Sound and Vision is a pathetic magazine. First off, you don't need to connect it to a 200w reciever, because it's an active subwoofer. It has it's own amplifier. They didn't even put a picture of the K-10 next to where they were talking about it, they got something else there. Trust your ears, not your magazine. Start demoing.

A subwoofer being played at higher than it's designed for will be distorted, that's not news. Boomy-ness is generally just a result of poor placement ... and most commonly the volume knob on the subwoofer turned up too high (where it doesn't blend well with the mains). It's not the subwoofer.

Installation quality is as important as component quality.

I'm not saying the K-10 is the best for output at that dollar... but when you say your into articulation and quality... it's a fantastic little sub!
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
That said, Velodyne has some fantastic options too. My big sub is a Velodyne HGS-18... It's given me fantastic service for years. Their smaller options are awesome too.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I've heard the Sunfires a few times and found them thoroughly underwhelming. But that was in dealer demos, so setup may have been at fault. Otherwise, it's hard to believe that subs that sound that bad (pure one-note boomy flab) could keep selling for the price they're getting.
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
They should make you guys take a basic physics course before allowing you to be moderators on this forum. Stop saying boomy to judge in subwoofer threads (unless it's to tell others to stop using "boomy").
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Cbraver, you seem utterly ignorant as to what we mean when we say boomy. I wish you could fix a truly boomy, peaky sub by merely turning it down. We're talking about elevated output in the middle of the subs range out of proportion to the deep bass. As Patrick says, a "one note" sub is what we're talking about.
 

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