Best codec for sound quality (5.1)?

[stevie555]

Whats the best-sounding format I should use to convert my CDs/MP3s into, that's also 5.1 compatible? According to WMP, its the .wma format. I've heard others say the .ape format is the highest sounding quality, and some argue for the dobly digital format. Anyone have comments/recommendations?

 

[juxtiphi]

Flac FrontEnd

Whats the best-sounding format I should use to convert my CDs/MP3s into, that's also 5.1 compatible? According to WMP, its the .wma format. I've heard others say the .ape format is the highest sounding quality, and some argue for the dobly digital format. Anyone have comments/recommendations?

Mp3s are lossy to start with, so if you try and upgrade your mp3 to a lossless format all you will have is a lossless file that sounds like an mp3.

any format is 5.1 compatible inthat it will play , it just wont be encoded to the actual 5.1 format.

to make your files 5.1 compatible you need to use a hiigh end audio editing program with the capabilities to encode info to the 5.1 format.

aside from that anything you play on your system will sound fine it just wont be encoded in the 5.1 format specifically.

IMHO the best Lossless Format is FLAC.


I use Flac Frontend Lossless Codec.

found here: http://mikewren.com/page.php?2

it is the easiest encoder/decoder I know of.

the files are seekable , and just about any player will play them.

it also has several levels of compression 1-8 allowing you to choose the size of the file. level 8 making the smallest file without becoming lossy.

Installing Flac Frontend will install a plugin for winamp/foobar so you can play flac files and it will install another plugin for nero which allows you to burn Flac files right to disk without decoding to wav before hand.

also another handy program for ripping your cds exactly is EAC

EAC stands for Exact Audio Copy.

found here: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/eac6.html

the DL link is at the bottom.

this is the gold standard program the music trading community uses to rip cds as its the best at making an exact copy of the disc.

after ripping your discs with this prog use Flac Frontend to flac the wav files for permanent use on your computer.

hope that helps

 

[stevie555]

Thats for the help, juxtiphi. 1 Question though, what do you mean by the actual 5.1 format? All my music files play in all 6 of my speakers when i use WMP, but does the actual 5.1 format do something beyond that, like direct different instruments or sound bands to different speakers?

 

[MDS]

Your mp3 or wma files are 2 channel. They play in 6.1 via WMP because it is using a matrix surround decoder like ProLogic II or most likely SRS TruSurround.

The way you posed the original question it sounded like you were asking how to encode any music into a file with an actual 5.1 channels. As juxtiphi said, you would need a high end audio editing program like Sony Vegas to do that and then of course unless you actually have 5 discrete channels (maybe that you created and mixed yourself) what's the point? You can't just take a 2 channel song ripped from a CD and 'encode' into a discrete 5.1 format.

 

[stevie555]

So what your saying is: disregarding rare circumstances, true 5.1 sound is used only in movies/games unless you have specialized software for music too; Otherwise, its just pseudo-surround sound that is played using a matrix surround decoder plug in?

Anyway, thanks for the help. From now on I'll convert my CDs into the flac format, but as far as downloading music goes, I guess i'll have to stick with the lousy MP3s because that's what most P2P applications and users have for audio.

 

[stevie555]

No wonder FLAC is so lossless, it only compresses the WAV file to about 50% of its original size. I can't tell a huge difference between MP3s and FLACs, but its probably my integrated sound card that's acting as a bottleneck and preventing a 'superb' quality of sound. I'll probably upgrade my sound card sooner or later, but thats another post all together. Anyway, thanks for the help guys.

 

[juxtiphi]

No wonder FLAC is so lossless, it only compresses the WAV file to about 50% of its original size. I can't tell a huge difference between MP3s and FLACs, but its probably my integrated sound card that's acting as a bottleneck and preventing a 'superb' quality of sound. I'll probably upgrade my sound card sooner or later, but thats another post all together. Anyway, thanks for the help guys.

a frequency analysis will show that an mp3 even one ripped at 360kb will have a decreased frequency range as detailed in the photo below.

The top is what an Mp3 looks like and the bottom is what the same lossless file looks like.

note that all the high end freqs have been squashed in order to make a smaller file. this area of frequencies is very important as effects and overdubs are often created in this range. which means the listener is missing a lot of details.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/juxtiphi/Bilderman2007.png




Flac was designed to make a lossless file thats smaller than a wave which saves some space. mp3 is only good for those who do not have enough space to go lossless. I used to think there was nothing wrong with mp3s until I was actually shown the difference and heard for myself what a lossless file can sound like compared to an mp3. I have never gone back.

also lossless is the future, as hardrives become bigger and cheaper music companies will begin selling their lossless formats ( its happening already) and mp3s will become a thing of the past just like the Victrola, 8-track and analog tape. I hope this makes it a little clearer for you.

 

[MDS]

a frequency analysis will show that an mp3 even one ripped at 360kb will have a decreased frequency range as detailed in the photo below.

It is very hard to believe that MP3 was encoded at 360 kbps (besides the fact that the max for constant bit rate mp3 is 320 kbps).

The high frequencies are eliminated completely starting at 16 kHz and that is the behavior of the typical encoder at 128 kbps. 128 kbps is aggresive compression so naturally it chops off the high frequencies that most people over age 20 cannot hear anyway.

At 192 kbps it doesn't roll off until 18 kHz or so and at 256 kbps and beyond the frequency spectrum will look near identical to the original right up to 20 kHz - even though it isn't identical because the encoder has eliminated any sounds that its model deems to be inaudible due to masking.

 

[juxtiphi]

the 360 was a typo! here is another illustration of how destructive mp3 is.

the pic below refers to the sound of a cymbal in wave format.

the top frequency analysis is of the mp3 and the bottom is the actual wav.

the mp3 was encoded with mp3 pro at 320 kbs CBR !!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/juxtiphi/Bilderman2007-1.png



music that has a very dynamic range as with classical or jazz where there are many instruments all playing at once causes subtle interactions between freqs often refered to as psyco accuostics or phantom notes. these interactions are often what makes a piece of music special in the first place.

Mp3-ing music may cause some of the higher end instruments like ( oboe , clarinets, viola among others) to sound deminished in the overall mix and may also remove the natural interaction of the instruments upon the ear causing a noticable difference.

music like thrash and grunge dont suffer as badly from mp3ing as its mostly a wall of sound, but for myself I want the full range of sound to be ever present whether I can hear it or not.

would you buy a cadillac with vinyl seats? looks almost the same but has a different feel when you drive it. IMHO thats what an mp3 is to the world of music. mp3 is just a way for companies like itunes and others to make money selling you an inferior product.

mark my words, in a few years mp3 will not even be an issue as lossless will become the standard for all downloadable music and it will cost more too.

dont believe me run over to DGM where you can buy an mp3 for 10 bucks or the flac versions for a few dollars more. if there was no dif between formats then why are the flac files more expensive?

 

[jcPanny]

Multi Channel Sound

FYI,
The Dolby ProLogig IIx CODEC on all moderen receivers will take a 2 channel source (CD, MP3, etc.) and play it on all 5-7 channels.

 

[MDS]

mp3 is just a way for companies like itunes and others to make money selling you an inferior product.

MP3 does not equal iTunes. MP3 was developed and patented by the Fraunhoffer Institute a decade before iTunes hit the scene. MP3 (or any lossy compression format) is a solution to a problem. All solutions have their relative merits and drawbacks.

You're spot on in the analysis of jazz and classical music and how mp3 is not the right choice for those genres in most cases; however, citing a few types of music where the result is not pleasing to one personally does not invalidate the general concept. Rock/Pop/Dance/Disco/Freestyle etc encoded at a high enough bitrate is nearly indistinguishable from the uncompressed wave. MP3 is a general purpose codec and by definition cannot be superlative for absolutely anything you throw at it.

mark my words, in a few years mp3 will not even be an issue as lossless will become the standard for all downloadable music and it will cost more too.

dont believe me run over to DGM where you can buy an mp3 for 10 bucks or the flac versions for a few dollars more. if there was no dif between formats then why are the flac files more expensive?

Sounds like the basic argument that technology gets better and cheaper over the years so why use a lossy compression codec when you can eventually buy a 1TB hard drive for a few bucks and store all of your music uncompressed.

One thing that strikes me in these types of discussions is that many people seem to think that FLAC or any other 'lossless' format is similar to MP3 but 'does a better job of preserving the music'. Of course it does - it is lossless. Using WinZip to zip up a letter to your mother doesn't lose any of the original data and neither does a lossless codec.

For what it's worth, I've been collecting music since I was a kid and have been editing audio for at least a decade now. I save the original uncompressed WAV from a CD (with only minor editing), but I tend to listen to the MP3s created from those waves.

P.S. Only a true neophyte would pay 10 bucks for an MP3 and a few dollars more for a FLAC version of the same song. A 'few' generally means 3 and for $13 you can buy the whole CD and rip it yourself. I've never heard of DGM but it sounds like they cater to the uninformed.

 

[juxtiphi]

FYI,
The Dolby ProLogig IIx CODEC on all moderen receivers will take a 2 channel source (CD, MP3, etc.) and play it on all 5-7 channels.

all that means is that your speakers will all be playing the same sounds where as true 5.1 or more sends specific audio tracks to specific speakers at specific times which is a much different experience then just having 5 or more speakers all playin the same thing.

 

[juxtiphi]

MP3 does not equal iTunes. MP3 was developed and patented by the Fraunhoffer Institute a decade before iTunes hit the scene. MP3 (or any lossy compression format) is a solution to a problem. All solutions have their relative merits and drawbacks.

P.S. Only a true neophyte would pay 10 bucks for an MP3 and a few dollars more for a FLAC version of the same song. A 'few' generally means 3 and for $13 you can buy the whole CD and rip it yourself. I've never heard of DGM but it sounds like they cater to the uninformed.

yes yes I know who invented mp3 and why, you misunderstand my point

itunes and others exploit this as a marketing tool.

And DGM stands for Disipline Global Mobal they are a music publishing company where the artists retain the rights to their music not DGM itself.
DGM has many artists under the mantle but was pretty much started by Robert Fripp from King Crimson. They sell the KC catalog which mostly contains live performances and offer direct downloads in mp3 and flac because few of these live albums ever make it to the store.

Im sorry I misquoted myself I should have stated the price for the album in mp3 is $9.95 Flac is 12.95 Most of the KC catalog is live and therefore are not available in stores hence the direct download.

Have you actually bought any cds lately iron maiden's number of the beast is still over $15 new. thats not to say it cant be found cheaper but for the average person who walks in a record store to do their shopping thats the way it is.