Best Bookshelf speakers under $300/pair

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vinisol

Audioholic Intern
Why would you guys advise him to buy a speaker that rolls off at that high of a frequency to begin with? Now, for the full range of frequencies, he has to crossover the sub at higher than 90 hz, which localizes it.This speaker is down 6 db at 80 hz. $300 can get you a better speaker than that. If I were to get an NHT speaker, I wouldn't go lower than a Classic Two, which at least has some bass extension.

The Hsu subs will roll off at 90 hz if you rely on it's internal crossover, but they are flat to over 200 hz if it is switched off. If your system is setup correctly you wouldn't be using the sub's crossover anyway.

Also, before you shoot down the Hsu subs, note that the VTF2 and VTF3 will have much better low-frequency extension, greater output, and a flatter frequency response than the sealed subs. They are also much larger and heavier than the other sealed subs, but with the size increase you get much better deep bass performance, and they are the only ones that can actually do deep bass performance from the ones mentioned. They would easily be the best subs, especially for home theater, but if you have to ship them back and forth from Miami to Brazil, that might be too awkward given their size. A sub that can approximate the Hsu's output and deep bass but is easier to haul around would be the SVS PC12-NSD, which only weighs 60 lbs.
shadyJ, which speaker would you suggest me to buy? Do you have any other option under USD 300.00?

Do you think KEF iQ10 or Cambridge S30 better than NHT Absolute Zero?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
shadyJ, which speaker would you suggest me to buy? Do you have any other option under USD 300.00?

Do you think KEF iQ10 or Cambridge S30 better than NHT Absolute Zero?
The problem with these speakers is they are using fairly small woofers, and small woofers give you small bass. The cambridge looks especially poor, what with a 4.5" driver. The others are using 5.25" woofers. I don't believe any of them have a flat frequency response to 80 hz. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are awful speakers, but personally I wouldn't want a speaker that couldn't meet the recommended crossover setting of 80 hz without compromise, especially for a home theater.

I would recommend you just look at speakers with 6.5" woofers, unless they are known to have exceptional bass, such as the Ascend Sierras (those are way out of your budget though). I think the Ascend CBM-170s would be very good, however those are a bit more than 300 after shipping. The Infinity Primus p163s would be good too, I have a pair of those, and they are terrific, and would come well under 300 after shipping. I did recommend some other speakers to you, the second post in this thread, I will just copy and paste:
The Hsu Research HB-1 mk2 are on sale right now, they are a terrific bookshelf speaker, and 300 will get you a pair shipped. The Behringer 2030p is pretty highly regarded, and they can be had for much less than 300 shipped. You can also get it's big brother for 300, the 2031p, if you want something with more bass capability. If you can handle their 4 ohm load, larger size, and heavier weight, they make for a great bookshelf speaker. If you want some real bang for your buck and don't mind doing a little work, check out the speaker kits they have at parts-express.com, they are easy to build and look like they would sound real nice.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
[QUOTE shadyJ / The problem with these speakers is they are using fairly small woofers, and small woofers give you small bass. The cambridge looks especially poor, what with a 4.5" driver. QUOTE]

My Cambridge are not poor - and they play down to 80hz and below,
and will cross at 80hz. And the Marantz and Yamaha, will set them
that way. Also, others are doing the same.

I really do not care what he chooses - as long as he is happy.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Everyone has an opinion.:D

Engineering is all about compromises.

Speakers are all about compromises.

Woofer size of 5.25" vs 6.5" doesn't mean jack to many people.

A bass response of 80Hz vs 60Hz @ -3dB from 90dBA from 2 meters doesn't mean jack to many people.

The important thing is how accurate they are from 100Hz-15kHz (and the NHT Absolute Zero absolutely accurate) and a great subwoofer can handle the 20hz - 100hz just fine.

So yeah, the NHT Absolute Zero has a -3dB point @ -83Hz; just set the crossover to 100Hz. No big deal.

Apparently Home Theater Magazine and plenty of other people like the NHT Absolute Zero speakers a lot.:D

Stereophile also liked the smaller NHT SuperZero a lot too. So do many people. I'm one of them.

I've owned the NHT SuperZero, which is even smaller than the Absolute Zero. Matched with the NHT SW2P, they sounded a lot better than some $23,000 speakers I've auditioned.:D

I'm not joking. That's my honest opinion. And everyone has an opinion.:D
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Everyone has an opinion.:D

Woofer size of 5.25" vs 6.5" doesn't mean jack to many people.

So yeah, the NHT Absolute Zero has a -3dB point @ -83Hz; just set the crossover to 100Hz. No big deal.
I have owned a few 5.25" and 6.5" that will not beat, the Cambridge
in the bass.
And yes, NHT is good.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I don't mean to badmouth your speakers, I am sure they are good within their limits, but any bookshelf speaker a single 4.5" woofer for bass will have its limits, and those limits will certainly be evident at 80 hz. Yeah, I know they will do 80 hz, but at what level compared to the rest of the frequency range? I don't think these speakers can offer a big movie sound as well as something larger, but don't take any offense, the OP asked for my advice and I gave it.
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
I don't mean to badmouth your speakers, I am sure they are good within their limits, but any bookshelf speaker a single 4.5" woofer for bass will have its limits, and those limits will certainly be evident at 80 hz. Yeah, I know they will do 80 hz, but at what level compared to the rest of the frequency range? I don't think these speakers can offer a big movie sound as well as something larger, but don't take any offense, the OP asked for my advice and I gave it.
I certainly understand your point... but want to add...

In certain circumstances... it isn't necessary for a speaker to be able to play flat to 80Hz at reference level. It all depends on someone's priorities...

No one here is saying Cambridge or NHT rewrote the laws of physics... and I'll be the first to admit that you can tell the small 5.25" woofer in the Absolute Zero suffers some compression if you push the volume too much.

But for someone like me, who lives in a connected town home and needs to be mindful of neighbors...and who's room is only medium size (13 x 17 x 8)... a speaker like the Absolute Zero or S30 can work very well.

I always use Audyssey Dynamic Volume for movies (and if I do get an HK AVR2600 and like it - I'll always use Dolby Volume).... for 2 reasons...
1) As mentioned, I need to be mindful of neighbors
2) I actually don't like reference level peaks... I want clear, detailed audio... but don't desire a true reference level home theater... just not what I'm after...

So for me... I don't care whether my Energy RC-10 can play flat to 80Hz at reference... I care that I like the sound within the range I listen...

A speaker like the Absolute Zero certainly has it's limits... but within them, it measures/performs very well... and I'd give up in the low end to take it's mids/high over the Primus... but that's just me...

You're right... you can't expect big bass from small woofers in small cabinets... but for some... that's ok...

We all know there is compromise in audio... especially because of budget constraints for most people...

But I do agree... if someone is after a system that can really play at reference level and still flat down to 80Hz... a 6.5" woofer is probably the bare minimum... some would argue even that isn't enough...
 
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alphaiii

Audioholic General
On a side note... does anyone ever actually measure the woofer in their speakers?

It's clear to me that the guidelines for designating woofer size are very flexible.

I measured a few woofer diameters in speakers I currently have... from surround edge to surround edge... so just the cone + surround... to the nearest 1/8"

CB5...spec = 4.5"... actual = 3-5/8"

NHT Absolute Zero.... spec = 5.25"... actual = 4-5/8"

Energy RC-10... spec = 5.5"... actual = 4.75"

PSB Image B4... spec = 4"... actual = 3-5/8"

Where am I going with this? Well, I guess I'm saying specs don't tell the whole story...

I don't have it anymore, but if I recall... when I measured the 4.5" woofer in the S30... it was actually about that size... And... I can agree with zieglj01... it is more capable in the bass than you would think... and can beat out the "5.25 inch" woofer in the NHT AZ (although a little unfair of a comparison, since the NHT is sealed in a small cabinet)... and embarrasses the "4.5 inch" woofer in the CB-5... WITHOUT an artificial upper bass boost (yes, Denis Murphy measured them to prove this)...

I think some other companies might have labeled it a 5" or 5.25" woofer...

Zieglj01 - mind measuring the S30 to reassure me I'm not imagining things?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
The problem with these speakers is they are using fairly small woofers, and small woofers give you small bass. The cambridge looks especially poor, what with a 4.5" driver. The others are using 5.25" woofers. I don't believe any of them have a flat frequency response to 80 hz. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are awful speakers, but personally I wouldn't want a speaker that couldn't meet the recommended crossover setting of 80 hz without compromise, especially for a home theater.
I absolutely agree with this. I will never again buy a speaker that does not play flat (±3db) down to 80hz and 60 or 70hz would be even better. When you crossover above 80hz you can hear the transition between speaker and subwoofer and back - it becomes the sonic equivalent of watching a ping pong match.

I would recommend you just look at speakers with 6.5" woofers, unless they are known to have exceptional bass, such as the Ascend Sierras (those are way out of your budget though). I think the Ascend CBM-170s would be very good, however those are a bit more than 300 after shipping. The Infinity Primus p163s would be good too, I have a pair of those, and they are terrific, and would come well under 300 after shipping. I did recommend some other speakers to you, the second post in this thread, I will just copy and paste:
I completely agree with this as well. I would not buy a speaker with a tiny woofer for home theater, I just wouldn't do it. Fine for music in a small room at moderate volumes but not movies. Think of the woofer as an air pump. It moves air to make bass and with a tiny woofer the manufacturer either has to sacrifice bass extension or bass output. You can't get both out of a tiny speaker - especially with a sealed speaker. The laws of physics don't change with brands. You can save a few dollars on the Ascends by buying b-stock (minor cosmetic blemishes). I can't find any blemish on the b-stock Ascends that I bought. I've also listened to the older (P162) version of the P163 and it's very a good speaker for the money. Which is best is personal taste.

Subwoofers work the same way... but more so. They do their job by moving mass amounts of air. Small sealed subwoofers like the Emotiva Ultra 10 or 12 (I own an Ultra 12) are the least expensive to ship but don't produce much bass below 30hz which is fine for music but not so good for action movies. Hsu's VTF-2 and VTF-3 are outstanding subwoofers but could cost a fortune to ship. The SVS cylinder sub might just be a good compromise between output, extension, and shipping costs but they are pricey.
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Zieglj01 - mind measuring the S30 to reassure me I'm not imagining things?
From the outside edge surround and inside the frame basket - the
S30 woofer is 5''
The cabinet is cross braced and has good damping material inside.

The Cambridge is flat to 70hz (-3db) > also, I am not watching a
ping pong match.
People can buy what they want - life is too short.

http://www.stereo.de/index.php?id=391
http://www.stereo.de/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads/pics/Cambridge_S30_LS.jpg&width=800m&height=600m&bodyTag=<body style="margin:0; background:#fff;">&wrap=<a href="javascript:close();"> | </a>&md5=b97c2ff642c381eb246727578f082ff3

I like to eat the fish and spit out the bones - However, I agree with
this review.
http://www.whathifi.com/review/cambridge-audio-s30
 
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V

vinisol

Audioholic Intern
Now I have in the list:

HSU HB-1 MK2
Behringer TRUTH B2031P
Cambridge S30
NHT Absolute Zero
Infinity P163
KEF iQ10

Can all you order by preference?
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Now I have in the list:

HSU HB-1 MK2
Behringer TRUTH B2031P
Cambridge S30
NHT Absolute Zero
Infinity P163
KEF iQ10

Can all you order by preference?
The ball is in your court - it is best that one makes their
own decision - you are the captain of your A/V ship.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
My Preference:

KEF iQ30 for $349:
It has a 6.5" woofer, so there.:p:D
My preference - Snell K7
You can't really find them anymore - so save up $700, and you
can buy mine for $1,000
http://www.snellacoustics.com/K7Lit_31508.pdf

That way, I can begin saving up for the Waterfall Niagra - Diamond
Glass speaker. I will only have $52,000 more to go.

However, you can go to Outlaw and get the BLS speaker - for the
same price, and is 95% Snell.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/bls_gallery1.html
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=83346
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Now I have in the list:

HSU HB-1 MK2
Behringer TRUTH B2031P
Cambridge S30
NHT Absolute Zero
Infinity P163
KEF iQ10

Can all you order by preference?
I have the Hsu HB-1s, the Behringers, and the Infinity speakers (actually I have the p162, not the p163 but they are exactly the same except for a small cosmetic change), and I think they all have their own strengths.

I would say, if you have a large room or like to really blaze the volume, go for the Hsu speakers, they have very good bass for bookshelf speakers and can really pound without breaking a sweat. These speakers are a lot of fun. If you are going to be seated closer to the speakers, and your amplifier supports 4 ohm speakers, go for the Behringer 2031. Very articulate and neutral, but they are also pretty large and heavy for bookshelf speakers, bear that in mind. They also have very good bass extension for bookshelf speakers, as well they should seeing as how they have large 8.75" woofers. The Infinity Primus speakers are a bit like the Behringers, but their bass doesn't go down as deep, although they are solid to below 80 hz. They are also very good speakers, very neutral and capable of getting pretty loud while keeping a clean sound. Unlike the Behringers, the Infinity will work with any AVR, and they aren't as big or heavy.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Now I have in the list:

HSU HB-1 MK2
Behringer TRUTH B2031P
Cambridge S30
NHT Absolute Zero
Infinity P163
KEF iQ10

Can all you order by preference?
You really need to sit down an listen for yourself because no one has your hearing. Its all subjective. I still would put the PSB Image B4 up top of that list but thats my preference.

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well. To
make it easier to audition HT speaker systems, listen to the main speakers in 2
channel mode with music. Music is much harder to reproduce accurately then a movie soundtrack so if the speakers do well with music, then they will do well with HT. Speakers that do HT well may not do well with music. When auditioning the center channel of the same brand and series as the main speakers, pick a difficult source like an announcer that mumbles alot. If you can understand what the mumbling announcer is saying, then you have a good center channel.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.
 
V

vinisol

Audioholic Intern
Don't you like the Polk Audio RTi A1 or TSi 200? Aren't they good speakers? The lower frequency of RTi A1 is 60Hz and TSi 200 is 50Hz.
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
Not sure if this matters, but Energy CB-20 bookshelves (pair) will be $199 this weekend at futureshop canada, (6.5-inch woofer with Ribbed Elliptical Surround). Great sensitivity as well, @ 92 dB in room...
 
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