Bass Management Speaker Efficiency Gain

B

Boifido

Audiophyte
Hi


I'm obviously not googling the right terms as I can't find any answers.

I'm using http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html to try and estimate the max volume I can play back on my system.

From my understanding using bass management should reduce the load on the receiver for a given volume. What I can't find is data suggesting roughly how much. For example, setting a crossover at 80hz would boost my speakers efficiency from 86.5db/w to 90db/w

Thanks for your help. Hopefully this is the right location.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Because that depends largely on the speaker. Why is the calculator not working for you? Which of those four pieces of info are you not inputing?
 
B

Boifido

Audiophyte
The calculator is working. What I am wondering is how bass management affects functional speaker db/w.

My understanding is that one of the reasons to use a sub is to reduce the load on an amplifier by not having the speaker play the lower notes.

So, I am looking for what that value would be.

So maybe the rule is for every octave of bass you highpass out of the speaker, you get a 3db/w efficiency gain.

I am looking for what the theoretical difference in amplifier load on a full range speaker vs that same speaker crossed over at say 80hz.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
The load the amplifier sees is primarily determined by the impedance of the speakers; they don't care what frequencies they are amplifying.

Benefit to the listener is not that the main speakers play louder (efficiency) but that they are hearing better quality of sound that is not being muddied up by a front speaker incapable of playing the frequencies being asked of it.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
It won't change your speakers' sensitivity at all. What will happen is the power which otherwise would go below 80 will be available for frequencies above 80.

Also, it pays to be conservative with the sensitivity ratings you use in that calculator. Published sensitivity specs are often inflated.
 
B

Boifido

Audiophyte
Interesting! So having a tower speaker that could play down perfectly to 20hz(pretend) but crossing it over at 80hz wouldn't make the load easier on the amplifier? Or, if the bass gets near a 2ohm load, would cutting out that requirement strain the amplifier less and allow it to be turned up more without distortion.


And yea I'm was trying to be conservative using the calculator. This is my first system and I'm trying to figure out what's the max I should play at.

I have polk lsim 705 fronts, 706c center, and 4x 703s, all rated 88db/w sensitivity. Marantz sr7008 receiver rated 125w/c.

From looking at reviews it looks like polks are more like 86.5db/w and Marantz with more than stereo is say 70w/c.

Calculating using 86.5db/w 70w and only 6 feet distance with no room gain puts me at about 100db. I'm using no room gain to hopefully account for the extra boosts auddesy does. Overall that should mean the max I should play is -5db setting on the receiver.

That means to hit reference cleanly at 7 feet I would need to get a 300 watt per channel power amp I guess, which is the max recommended for the speakers. Listening at 10 feet would require 600w. That's quite a lot for not a lot of distance and why I was hoping for bass power savings haha.

Well that's my long ramble!
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Interesting! So having a tower speaker that could play down perfectly to 20hz(pretend) but crossing it over at 80hz wouldn't make the load easier on the amplifier?
Sure it would. And keep in mind that this fairly slight increase in dynamic range is one benefit, and not the best one IMO. Reduced IM distortion is another. This is what Warrior was alluding to...low frequencies require longer cone excursion, affecting higher frequencies that the cone also produces; cut those low frequencies and the cones move less, thus modulating higher frequencies less, and voila, tighter, lower distortion mid bass and lower mids.

That means to hit reference cleanly at 7 feet I would need to get a 300 watt per channel power amp I guess, which is the max recommended for the speakers. Listening at 10 feet would require 600w. That's quite a lot for not a lot of distance and why I was hoping for bass power savings haha.
It adds up quick. LOUD requires more sensitive speakers and more power than you currently have. Keep in mind that our hearing has greatest acuity when the average volume is 75-85 db, and louder than that may not necessarily be better. If you like the sound of your current speakers, and the amount of power you have on tap will get you to 100db or so peaks, kick back, listen to your favorite tunes, and read up on subs and system calibration. Be sure to peruse the articles on system setup on the Audioholics main page. There is a lot of info to absorb (and certainly more vetted than an off the cuff post from me!)
 
B

Boifido

Audiophyte
Sure it would. And keep in mind that this fairly slight increase in dynamic range is one benefit, and not the best one IMO. Reduced IM distortion is another. This is what Warrior was alluding to...low frequencies require longer cone excursion, affecting higher frequencies that the cone also produces; cut those low frequencies and the cones move less, thus modulating higher frequencies less, and voila, tighter, lower distortion mid bass and lower mids.
Okay, so basically it sounds like it's a negligible effect. I had already been using bass management crossover for the other reasons mentioned, I was just hoping it would also help my pitiful power calculations! (Subs are 2x psw125s) Since my speakers apparently hit ~2.5 ohm minimum, I understand having that highpass would reduce the strain on a receiver power supply, so that's good at least.

This is just for the meantime and in the future I was looking at getting an Emotiva and some svs subs.

It adds up quick. LOUD requires more sensitive speakers and more power than you currently have. Keep in mind that our hearing has greatest acuity when the average volume is 75-85 db, and louder than that may not necessarily be better. If you like the sound of your current speakers, and the amount of power you have on tap will get you to 100db or so peaks, kick back, listen to your favorite tunes, and read up on subs and system calibration. Be sure to peruse the articles on system setup on the Audioholics main page. There is a lot of info to absorb (and certainly more vetted than an off the cuff post from me!)
We're 22, and we got this system with the plan to have it for years to come. It already sounds fantastic and I love how sub-optimal the setup is. Too close to walls, no room treatment, only receiver for power, lower end subs (2xpsw125). I'm excited that it will sound even better in the future.

The reason I got thinking about hitting reference is watching "The Cabin in the Woods". Even watching at -5 the voices weren't all too loud. It must have more dynamic range than say, pacific rim. For most other movies we've watched -10 has sounded very loud. I've never felt the need to go past -5 otherwise, so it seems like for the most part our system has adequate power.

It sounds like due to the sensitivity and max power rating (300) of the speakers, reference at further than 7 feet placement is potentially out of the picture. Although, I understand speakers should be able to handle clean powered peaks above their rating.

Luckily, aside from aforementioned cabin movie I've never felt the need to listen at 0 so far, so aiming for -5 seems okay to me.

I've been reading lots of articles, it's a great site!
 
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