Bass management question

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know what your problem is, I simply highlighted an unusual feature that I noted in the manual that may well be a misprint. No idea why you brought up the other stuff that I have not commented on. I only mentioned the 40 to 200 hz for the sub LPF the OP had asked about. The LPF is, as correctly understood by the OP as the low pass filter for the LFE. I have not made comments about crossover, not yet anyway.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
I want to apologise for attacking you guys. I didn't mean to lose it like that.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Grador" said:
Almost no speakers have a high pass for the woofer, so this is not true at all. The first crossover in the speaker will be the one from the woofer to tweeter [or mid] well above the sub crossover point.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the speaker crossovers are usually WELL outside the operating bandwidth of a processor/receivers crossover? So it's also never going to cascade or interact.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Correct me if I'm wrong but the speaker crossovers are usually WELL outside the operating bandwidth of a processor/receivers crossover? So it's also never going to cascade or interact.
Not always, the crossover from the woofer to mids on my EMPs occurs at 120 hz.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
My friend is saying : the passive crossovers in the main speakers do not magically disappear ;) the typical passive (having designed and built some myself even) will have a lowpass and a highpass right there on the pcb...
many home theatre receiver have highpass of 12db/oct and lowpass of 24db/oct because the assumption is that most hifi passives are 12db/oct, thus creating a sum total of 24db/oct, thus keeping the
phase in-line ..

What is he saying?
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
My friend is saying : the passive crossovers in the main speakers do not magically disappear ;) the typical passive (having designed and built some myself even) will have a lowpass and a highpass right there on the pcb...
many home theatre receiver have highpass of 12db/oct and lowpass of 24db/oct because the assumption is that most hifi passives are 12db/oct, thus creating a sum total of 24db/oct, thus keeping the
phase in-line ..

What is he saying?
You have the detailed info we gave you and what you're friend is telling you. What more do you want?
 
T

twoeyedbob

Audioholic
Not really sure how genuine these questions are ?

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I don't know what your problem is, I simply highlighted an unusual feature that I noted in the manual that may well be a misprint. No idea why you brought up the other stuff that I have not commented on. I only mentioned the 40 to 200 hz for the sub LPF the OP had asked about. The LPF is, as correctly understood by the OP as the low pass filter for the LFE. I have not made comments about crossover, not yet anyway.
I don't understand why you think there is a problem. You are right that what is said in the manual about setting the front right and left to
"large" while setting the center and rear speakers to "small" and having a subwoofer is unusual. I think it is so unusual (and frankly a bad idea) that I suspect that it is really a mistake in the manual rather than an accurate description of what the processor does, but that would be best directed to Rotel for clarification (and one might do some testing of it as well, if one has the processor and is up for such a thing). None of this is a criticism of you for finding that the manual says what is says about that setting.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
My friend is saying : the passive crossovers in the main speakers do not magically disappear ;) the typical passive (having designed and built some myself even) will have a lowpass and a highpass right there on the pcb...
Yes, a passive crossover will typically include a high pass filter and a low pass filter. In a typical 2 way loudspeaker, you'll high pass the tweeter and low pass the woofer. There isn't an additional high pass filter on the woofer in this scenario.

many home theatre receiver have highpass of 12db/oct and lowpass of 24db/oct because the assumption is that most hifi passives are 12db/oct, thus creating a sum total of 24db/oct, thus keeping the phase in-line ..
On that:

Feature Article

The THX crossover consists of an 80 Hz, 4th order Linkwitz/Riley filter alignment, and it was not chosen lightly or without serious consideration. As the crossover frequency increases, it becomes harder to blend the subwoofer with a satellite, and the subwoofer becomes more difficult to audibly "hide". At the same time, as the crossover frequency increases, distortion from the satellite decreases, the total dynamic range increases, and loading the room for the flattest response becomes much easier. The logic of the 80 Hz crossover point is that it's high enough to ease demands on the speakers and amplifier, but low enough to make the whole setup work without a tremendous headache. The 4th order (24dB/octave roll-off, 6dB/octave/pole) Linkwitz/Riley alignment not only offers a steep slope, but one that immediately transitions to that slope, maximizing the benefits of that slope near the crossover point. The high-pass side minimizes excursion and power requirements, while the low-pass minimizes more localizable content at higher frequencies.



To correctly achieve this, THX satellite speakers are sealed systems with an 80 Hz �3 dB low frequency cutoff (preferably with a Qtc of 0.71). The electronic high-pass filter applied to them is an 80 Hz, 2nd order (12dB/octave) Butterworth alignment. The speaker and the filter sum to a 4th order Linkwitz/Riley roll-off which matches the electronic filter applied to the subwoofer, and an excellent crossover is achieved.
Of course, one might note that not all speakers roll off at a rate of 12dB/octave. A vented/ported alignment for example is typically 24dB/octave.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Steve81 said:
Of course, one might note that not all speakers roll off at a rate of 12dB/octave. A vented/ported alignment for example is typically 24dB/octave.
My understanding of what he said is that electrically, there would be filter interaction between the speaker and the receivers crossover. I don't quite understand how this is possible.

If I have a 100 Hz crossover (24 db/low pass and 12 db/high pass) in my AVR and my 2-way bookshelves have a woofer crossed over at 300 Hz, how would the receiver crossover interact or "cascade" with the speakers crossover? If I choose a 60 Hz high-pass filter on the amp then the speakers internal passive crossover would still not be affected. The crossover for woofer and mid and high's are separate from the receiver crossover.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
If I have a 100 Hz crossover (24 db/low pass and 12 db/high pass) in my AVR and my 2-way bookshelves have a woofer crossed over at 300 Hz, how would the receiver crossover interact or "cascade" with the speakers crossover?
As you suspect, there isn't going to be any cascading of crossovers to speak of in this case.

Edit: If you want an example of cascading crossovers, setting the built in low pass filter on your subwoofer to 80Hz while utilizing bass management in your receiver would set up such a scenario.
 
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G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
My understanding of what he said is that electrically, there would be filter interaction between the speaker and the receivers crossover. I don't quite understand how this is possible.

If I have a 100 Hz crossover (24 db/low pass and 12 db/high pass) in my AVR and my 2-way bookshelves have a woofer crossed over at 300 Hz, how would the receiver crossover interact or "cascade" with the speakers crossover? If I choose a 60 Hz high-pass filter on the amp then the speakers internal passive crossover would still not be affected. The crossover for woofer and mid and high's are separate from the receiver crossover.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Well your hypothetical is pretty impossible since you'll never see a 2-way with a 300 hz crossover. Instead we'll use my speakers, which as I stated before have a 120 hz crossover that is clearly within the area of the LPF for the sub.

This is why I keep saying you have to EXPERIMENT. Both running the speakers as large and having the cascading crossovers are subpar scenarios, can you tell me which I should choose?
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Grador said:
Well your hypothetical is pretty impossible since you'll never see a 2-way with a 300 hz crossover. Instead we'll use my speakers, which as I stated before have a 120 hz crossover that is clearly within the area of the LPF for the sub.
But I thought few or no speakers had a 120 Hz low-pass on the woofer? What speakers do you have? The whole question was can AVR active crossovers cascade with speaker crossovers. That is what I asked. Either they can or they can't. If most speakers have passive crossovers WELL outside the range of the AVR crossover then I have my answer. You are confusing matters for some reason.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Grador said:
This is why I keep saying you have to EXPERIMENT. Both running the speakers as large and having the cascading crossovers are subpar scenarios, can you tell me which I should choose?
For the sake of the discussion consider this issue SETTLED. I understand that setting to Large is not the most efficient method. I have set my speakers to Small.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
But I thought few or no speakers had a 120 Hz low-pass on the woofer? What speakers do you have? The whole question was can AVR active crossovers cascade with speaker crossovers. That is what I asked. Either they can or they can't. If most speakers have passive crossovers WELL outside the range of the AVR crossover then I have my answer. You are confusing matters for some reason.
If you're not a troll, then you need to slow down and comprehend answers before asking more questions. Seriously, you asked if all speakers had passives well out of that band and I responded "no mine don't". You asked a hypothetical and when you got a direct answer you complained that I was needlessly complicating things? Also my speakers are listed in my signature, pay attention.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Grador said:
Seriously, you asked if all speakers had passives well out of that band and I responded "no mine don't". You asked a hypothetical and when you got a direct answer you complained that I was needlessly complicating things?
I guess I am having difficulty accepting that your woofer is low-passed from 120 Hz and down. Most speakers are usually crossed much higher up. The reason why I am complaining is because I am getting CONFLICTING INFORMATION. One place tells me one thing and the next place tells me another else. Even in this thread I got confirmation and an explanation and then here comes another explanation which contradicts what I learned.

So forgive me but yes, you are adding more confusion. I am not a troll but I am trying to find accurate information and I don't know right now if what I am getting is accurate or not.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
What you seem to not be getting is that you're not getting conflicting information. You're looking for the one single truth, and it doesn't exist.

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers
Check the specs tab.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
The reason I found your example perplexing is that I assumed most speakers did not cross the woofers over so low.

I thought it was closer to something like this :

 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
But I thought few or no speakers had a 120 Hz low-pass on the woofer? What speakers do you have? The whole question was can AVR active crossovers cascade with speaker crossovers. That is what I asked. Either they can or they can't. If most speakers have passive crossovers WELL outside the range of the AVR crossover then I have my answer. You are confusing matters for some reason.
I'm "confusing" matters because they are confusing, and providing my own real world example to answer your question in a very straight manner.

So what crossover frequency do you use?
I run mine full range and use a DSP on the subwoofer to make everything behave well. It all behaves alright without the DSP though.

Again, what I've been saying over and over: you'll never find solid truths online. Asking about fairly specific hypotheticals doesn't work out because every setup is different. If I change out my subwoofer I will reevaluate my bass management strategy again.


I really don't know what you want here, you asked about passive crossover's cascading with AVR bass management. I informed you mine do and you informed me that I made things confusing... What exactly do you want to know?
 
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