AVR Power Output Comparison

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just for fun, I did a little comparison.

AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms (Home Theater Magazine)

$7000 Pioneer SC09: 268.7/523.4/267.3 watts
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 AudioControl 1: 119.7/197.8/105.8
$5000 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1
$5000 Arcam 600: 119.2/207.3/95.5
$4000 NAD 787: 184.5/207.1/149.2
$2000 Rotel 1550: 150.1/235.0/111.4
$2000 Anthem 700: 160.2/221.0/93.7
$1800 Cambridge 650: 174.4/229.9/142.3
$1600 NAD 757: 121.9/181.0/91.2
$1400 Onkyo 1009: 179.5/250.4/131.2
$1400 Integra 50.2: 172.4/259.8/134.1
$1300 Cambridge 551: 111.3/139.8/81.2
$1200 Marantz 6006: 153.2/195.8/92.0
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0
$1200 Yamaha 1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150.3/247.5/127.7
$1000 Anthem 300: 116.3/165.9/83.4
$1000 Sherwood 977: 145.1/209.9/109.2
$500 HK 1700: 108.9/196.3/39.5
$900 Denon 2313: 152.1/192.5/90.8
$580 Denon 1913: 117.7/151.1/81.7
$550 Yamaha 573: 111.4/126.2/24.9
$500 Sony 1030: 134.7/167.7/90.4
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
$450 Pioneer VSX42: 118.2/157.8/79.9
$350 Denon 1612: 118.5/141.5/79.8
$330 Pioneer 821: 110.3/150.7/78.1
$230 Sony 520: 141.7/160.6/81.3

 

[Speedskater]

How did you do your test-stand set-up?

 

[ichigo]

He just took it from hometheater.com

And the RX-Z11 originally retailed for $5499, same as the Denon AVR 5308 CI. Although it did drop to $2499 after 1 year.

And Fry's was selling it for $1300 by 2010. Deal of the decade.

 

[fuzz092888]

You have some of the best speakers in the world and you spend your time comparing the specs on AVR's. Oy vey

 

[cpp]

How did you do your test-stand set-up?

He read it on the internet so it must be true, perfect, valid and beyond reproach

 

[Speedskater]

He read it on the internet so it must be true, perfect, valid and beyond reproach

Well it look's legitimate. To test components and especially multi-channel power amps, you need an independent agency doing the tests. They (home theater) appear to have their own test stand and a repeatable and reproducable test protocol. The last thing we want to do is to compare specs from different manufactures (or even different group of one mfg.). The second last thing we want to do is to compare test results from different sources.

 

[rnatalli]

Just for fun, I did a little comparison.

AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms (Home Theater Magazine)

$7000 Pioneer SC09: 268.7/523.4/267.3 watts
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 AudioControl 1: 119.7/197.8/105.8
$5000 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1
$5000 Arcam 600: 119.2/207.3/95.5
$4000 NAD 787: 184.5/207.1/149.2
$2000 Rotel 1550: 150.1/235.0/111.4
$2000 Anthem 700: 160.2/221.0/93.7
$1800 Cambridge 650: 174.4/229.9/142.3
$1600 NAD 757: 121.9/181.0/91.2
$1400 Onkyo 1009: 179.5/250.4/131.2
$1400 Integra 50.2: 172.4/259.8/134.1
$1300 Cambridge 551: 111.3/139.8/81.2
$1200 Marantz 6006: 153.2/195.8/92.0
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0
$1200 Yamaha 1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150.3/247.5/127.7
$1000 Anthem 300: 116.3/165.9/83.4
$1000 Sherwood 977: 145.1/209.9/109.2
$500 HK 1700: 108.9/196.3/39.5
$900 Denon 2313: 152.1/192.5/90.8
$580 Denon 1913: 117.7/151.1/81.7
$550 Yamaha 573: 111.4/126.2/24.9
$500 Sony 1030: 134.7/167.7/90.4
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
$450 Pioneer VSX42: 118.2/157.8/79.9
$350 Denon 1612: 118.5/141.5/79.8
$330 Pioneer 821: 110.3/150.7/78.1
$230 Sony 520: 141.7/160.6/81.3

Nice to have these all in one place! On the lower end of the scale, Denon has always done well, but Pioneer seems to have beefed up their amps a bit over the last couple of years.

 

[M Code]

The 1 thing missing is providing the brand's AVR published specs..
Then 1 can see the differential between real & published..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You have some of the best speakers in the world and you spend your time comparing the specs on AVR's. Oy vey

Nice to have these all in one place!

There are a few guys on AVS who insist that brands like Cambridge, Arcam, etc, somehow have "real" power and most < $1K AVR do not have real power. So I compiled a list of most cheaper AVR to show their statements are erroneous.

For example, a $230 Sony has more power output in both 2Ch and 5Ch than a $1300 Cambridge !

Since I like AH much better than AVS, of course, I wanted to share the list with my AH friends.

 

[rnatalli]

I know of one such guy on AVS who consistently insists Cambridge Audio is the only receiver able to deliver real power and everything else is garbage. That 520 does put out a surprising amount of power for $230!

 

[Pyrrho]

Just for fun, I did a little comparison.

AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms (Home Theater Magazine)

...
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
...

Are those people claiming that it can't put out any power into 5 channels at once (not even 1 watt per channel?), or are they not smart enough to be able to measure it, or is there something else going on? On the face of it, that looks like BS rather than anything real, and it makes me wonder how much any of their numbers should be trusted.

Edited to add:

If it went into protection mode every time 5 channels were asked to deliver anything, wouldn't these receivers all be going into protection mode in real use and consequently everyone would be complaining that they don't work? Yet I have not seen any threads complaining that that happens.

If someone owns one of these, please set it for "5ch Stereo" mode and see if you actually get sound from all channels, or if it simply goes into protection mode. My guess is, the reviewer has simply screwed up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know of one such guy on AVS who consistently insists Cambridge Audio is the only receiver able to deliver real power and everything else is garbage. That 520 does put out a surprising amount of power for $230!

Commsysman or something?

The dude who tells everyone that his recommendations are the best ever and everything else is just crap?

Yeah, I bet he hates me for showing how a $230 cheap a$$ Sony AVR outperforms his precious $1300 Cambridge AVR that he recommends to everyone.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are those people claiming that it can't put out any power into 5 channels at once (not even 1 watt per channel?), or are they not smart enough to be able to measure it, or is there something else going on? On the face of it, that looks like BS rather than anything real, and it makes me wonder how much any of their numbers should be trusted.

Edited to add:

If it went into protection mode every time 5 channels were asked to deliver anything, wouldn't these receivers all be going into protection mode in real use and consequently everyone would be complaining that they don't work? Yet I have not seen any threads complaining that that happens.

If someone owns one of these, please set it for "5ch Stereo" mode and see if you actually get sound from all channels, or if it simply goes into protection mode. My guess is, the reviewer has simply screwed up.

Good point.

$550 Yamaha 573: 24.9 watts x 5Ch driven, which looks really low too.

BTW, both the 473 and 573 are the same $350 price on Amazon.

Maybe the requisite is 20+ watts output x 5 Ch driven and anything less goes into protection ?

Maybe in real life, people who own $350 AVR probably have 8 ohm 90dB speakers that may only require 5-15 watts.

Also the fact that not all 5 Ch are actually driving at the same time (all-channel-driven fallacy).

 

[rnatalli]

Could have been a defective unit. I believe the 473 uses discrete circuitry so it should be able to put something out into 5 channels.

 

[Pyrrho]

Good point.

$550 Yamaha 573: 24.9 watts x 5Ch driven, which looks really low too.

BTW, both the 473 and 573 are the same $350 price on Amazon.

Maybe the requisite is 20+ watts output x 5 Ch driven and anything less goes into protection ?

Maybe in real life, people who own $350 AVR probably have 8 ohm 90dB speakers that may only require 5-15 watts.

Also the fact that not all 5 Ch are actually driving at the same time (all-channel-driven fallacy).

I think you mean that all 5 channels are not being driven at maximum levels at the same time. It is common for there to be some sound from all channels at once, but pretty much never all at maximum volume.

This makes me think of another point. I would much rather have a 5 channel receiver capable of putting out a total of 400 watts into any channels (such that the one channel power is 400 watts, the 2 channel power is 200 watts per channel, the 5 channel power is 80 watts per channel, etc.), than to have one that is capable of 150 watts into all channels simultaneously, and no more power into any one channel. With real music being dynamic and not at maximum volume in all channels at the same time, the 400 watt total amplifier would be practically more powerful, even though the other one's total output capability would be 750 watts (if we are dealing with 5 channels, as 150 x 5 = 750). The thing is, one would never actually be using all 750 watts as one never will encounter all channels driven maximally. So the power supply needed for that is really just wasted money.

Also, from looking at the total list that you have posted with real receivers, one can easily see that the point of spending more is not primarily more power, as the extra money generally gives little return on the investment as far as power is concerned. The real reason is features. More power is better achieved with separate power ąmplifiers.

Another oddity is that Yamaha 573 in the listing. They say that they measured, both at 8 ohms, 111.4 watts per channel with 2 channels, and 24.9 watts per channel with 5 channels. The thing is, that means that the total power output into 2 channels is 222.8 watts, and the total power output into 5 channels is only 124.5 watts. It seems odd that it would be so much less total power when driving 5 channels than it is when driving 2 channels. That it is less per channel makes sense, but that the total power is so much less seems strange.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you mean that all 5 channels are not being driven at maximum levels at the same time. It is common for there to be some sound from all channels at once, but pretty much never all at maximum volume.

This makes me think of another point. I would much rather have a 5 channel receiver capable of putting out a total of 400 watts into any channels (such that the one channel power is 400 watts, the 2 channel power is 200 watts per channel, the 5 channel power is 80 watts per channel, etc.), than to have one that is capable of 150 watts into all channels simultaneously, and no more power into any one channel. With real music being dynamic and not at maximum volume in all channels at the same time, the 400 watt total amplifier would be practically more powerful, even though the other one's total output capability would be 750 watts (if we are dealing with 5 channels, as 150 x 5 = 750). The thing is, one would never actually be using all 750 watts as one never will encounter all channels driven maximally. So the power supply needed for that is really just wasted money.

Also, from looking at the total list that you have posted with real receivers, one can easily see that the point of spending more is not primarily more power, as the extra money generally gives little return on the investment as far as power is concerned. The real reason is features. More power is better achieved with separate power ąmplifiers.

Another oddity is that Yamaha 573 in the listing. They say that they measured, both at 8 ohms, 111.4 watts per channel with 2 channels, and 24.9 watts per channel with 5 channels. The thing is, that means that the total power output into 2 channels is 222.8 watts, and the total power output into 5 channels is only 124.5 watts. It seems odd that it would be so much less total power when driving 5 channels than it is when driving 2 channels. That it is less per channel makes sense, but that the total power is so much less seems strange.

Yes, all-channels driving max CAPABLE output.

The Y573 was able to output a max of about 25 WPC x 5Ch, which I assume is probably the minimum requisite. So if an AVR cannot output at least 25WPC @ 1% THD, it goes into protection like the Y473?

Perhaps some engineers and gurus will regale us with elaboration of MCH vs 2CH output.

 

[Steve81]

Perhaps some engineers and gurus will regale us with elaboration of MCH vs 2CH output.

I'm neither an engineer nor a guru, but I'll see if I can help: driving 5 channels to their max is tougher on a receiver than driving 2 channels to their max. You're welcome

One example:
100W @ 4 ohms = 20V * 5A
16W @ 4 ohms = 8V * 2A

You'll note in this example delivering 16W into 5 channels (80W total) is as demanding in terms of amperage as delivering 100W into 2 channels (200W total).

 

[PENG]

I'm neither an engineer nor a guru, but I'll see if I can help: driving 5 channels to their max is tougher on a receiver than driving 2 channels to their max. You're welcome

One example:
100W @ 4 ohms = 20V * 5A
16W @ 4 ohms = 8V * 2A

You'll note in this example delivering 16W into 5 channels (80W total) is as demanding in terms of amperage as delivering 100W into 2 channels (200W total).

ADTG, don't listen to him, he is just being funny/tricky.

He cited the current values on the output side where the voltage varies with the output level. If you refer the current back to the primary (120V fixed to the incoming supply) side of the power supply transformer, his tricky math will fall apart and it will show that the 100WX2 is proportionally/mathematically and understandably tougher for the power supply than the 16WX5.

Pyrrho's point/math is still valid.

 

[mike c]

generally, how much more wattage does one get when fudging from a 20-20khz rating to a 1khz rating?

wish there really was a table for all these tests in one place (even discontinued models)

happy though that i chose the HK1650 (pretty sure it's stronger than the 1700, which is why i chose it). it's horrible with MCH, but i bought it to play 2ch
[almost doubles down on 4ohm output]

the HK is sitting in my living room, on top of it's box. a dump of speaker wires beside it ... but i still haven't even plugged it in to check if it's working.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, don't listen to him, he is just being funny/tricky.

He cited the current values on the output side where the voltage varies with the output level. If you refer the current back to the primary (120V fixed to the incoming supply) side of the power supply transformer, his tricky math will fall apart and it will show that the 100WX2 is proportionally/mathematically and understandably tougher for the power supply than the 16WX5.

Pyrrho's point/math is still valid.

So do you think HTM screwed up with the Yamaha 473 going into protection mode in 5 CH? Or the 573 getting only 25 WPC in 5Ch?