Audio Lip Sync - The Next Big Feature?

In the "good ole days" of pre-HD CRT displays, audio and video processing took about the same amount of time resulting in almost no significant delay problems. Back then, no one had to worry about video taking longer to process than the audio that was being heard. Fast forward to HDTV and the era of video scalers, deinterlacing, and 2:3 pull-down and you are entering a time when video frequently takes longer than the previously 'acceptable' <16.6 milliseconds (1/2 video frame, or one field in interlaced systems). What does this all mean for home theater? Read on to find out...

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V

videobruce

Audioholic
Is there a list of specific models from those manufactures that have a adjustable delay feature?
 
av-man

av-man

Audioholic
I was aware of the potential problem but have not actually run into it yet. I did however asume that every manufacturor would be adressing the problem. Being a custom installer its good news to me, just one more thing to push consumers to higher end gear.
 
Jase

Jase

Junior Audioholic
videobruce said:
Is there a list of specific models from those manufactures that have a adjustable delay feature?
The Denon models that have it are these:-

AVR 5805
AVR 5803 & 5803A
AVR 5800 (upgraded)
AVR 4806
AVR 4802R
AVR 3805
AVR 3803
AVR 2805

Adjustable 0-200ms and on a per input basis.
 
kay

kay

Audioholic
Yamaha's that have it are: RX-V450 through 750 (0-160ms), and RX-V1500, 2500, and DSP-Z9 (0-200ms).
 
P

Privateer

Full Audioholic
Fast forward to HDTV and the era of video scalers, deinterlacing, and 2:3 pull-down and you are entering a time when video frequently takes longer than the previously 'acceptable' <16.6 milliseconds (1/2 video frame, or one field in interlaced systems). What does this all mean for home theater?
That is were the higher performing gear comes in. I have never noticed this problem with good quality gear.
 
C

CPA

Audiophyte
Had this problem

I had this problem with a Denon 2105 and a Sony 42" Plasma. I wound up swapping out the Denon for a 2805 which has the audio delay feature and couldn't be happier. I would definitely look for the audio lip synch on a new receiver for anyone considering plasmas. I had no idea about synch delay problems until I experienced it myself, and trust me that it's annoying!
 
9

9f9c7z

Banned
Parasound’s new software upgrades for the Halo C1 and C2 implements a lip-sync delay feature of up to 150ms. That wasn’t in the original product spec. The only way to get it is to download and install the free software upgrade…using a $40 cable to connect with your pc! Folks with Macs forget it. No way to upgrade your Halo C1/2 with an Apple.

Something that impresses me as backdoor-cheesy about Parasound is their marketing for the Halo processors as being “upgradeable” and “RS232 for future software upgrades from Parasound.com”, etc. then you go to get the latest and greatest s/w update on their website and you are greeted with a disclaimer the software isn’t supported, installing it isn’t support, and if anything gets messed up, it is not covered by warranty. Their new processors are not being shipped with the upgrade, either, tho there is rumor of additions to the Halo series on the horizon. Maybe lip-sync delay with be factory installed on those products. I disagree. I think Parasound is very much on the hook for the integrity of the software they promote and distribute with the intent of affecting the function of their product(s).
 
S

stanrozenfeld

Audioholic Intern
So let's say I noticed the lip-sync delay on my system. I have a Denon 3910 connected via dvi to Samsung HLP6163, and for audio, I have the digital audio coax to my old Marantz SR-18 receiver(which was very well reviewed here a few years ago). Please note that my only concern is the dvd playback, which is all I watch. I am not interested at all in satellite, cable or other sources.

Needless to say, my old receiver doesn't have the audio delay feature. My only option is to try to compensate by using distance adjustments for my speakers. Is that doable without global audio delay? How do you convert ms to distance in feet?

Is it possible that they will come up with some sort of stand alone audio delay circuit that you can put between the dvd player and the receiver, with coax or optical in and out jacks?

Otherwise I really love my current set-up and would hate to have to part with my trusty Marantz receiver based on this problem. On the other hand the lip sync problem is noticeable and it does take away from my enjoyment of the movies.
 
Jase

Jase

Junior Audioholic
Delay Times and Global Audio Delay are two different things. You can't compensate for Lip-Sync properly if you don't have the right feature. For your info: 1ms = roughly 1 foot.

You can buy a stand alone unit to sort out Lip-Sync. It's here:-

http://www.felston.com

Hope that helps. :)
 
Last edited:
S

stanrozenfeld

Audioholic Intern
I tried to compensate by maxing out all the speaker distances on my receiver (for instance, instead of 8 feet for center, I put 28 feet)... it improved the situation, but not enough. It looks like I am going to have to save my pennies and buy that felston unit.

thanks!
 
T

TomGresham

Audiophyte
Lip-Sync is good

"Mid-priced and higher-end displays already come with audio delay circuitry built in to match the audio and video signals and prevent lip sync."

Good writeup, but did it bother anyone else that this statement is wrong? The goal is to create lip-sync, not to prevent it.

If you have lip-sync, the audio and the video are in sync, and it looks and sounds right.
 
J

jimmit

Junior Audioholic
I can't find any reference to audio lip sync delay on NAD's website or in their current product brochure. Same thing with Rotel. Does anyone know which, if any, of these two companies' products are offered with this feature?
 
Thunder18

Thunder18

Senior Audioholic
Xsound said:
Pioneer Elite VSX-54, 56, and 59 have it as well.
Pioneer VSX-9100 and 9300 have it!
More proof of Pioneer's marketing mavens at work?!?!?!
 
N

Nexsen

Audiophyte
I'm sure I could have missed one but I haven't found "any" of these Av receiver/amps that do what Clint points out is "essential": allowing the delay adjustment to correct lip-sync from a button on their remote control.

All that I have seen put the lip-sync delay in a set-up menu that is hard to access and where you can't even see the video and hear the audio at the same time. I don't know how anyone could ever get the right adjustment that way.

The best solution I have seen - and it's cheaper than replacing your av receiver - is the Felston DD540 digital audio delay lip-sync corrector. I had their DD340 which did the same thing on a single channell and replaced it with their dual channell DD540 when it came out.

It works great, has 12 presets for most common delay settings for differenmt inputs, and allows dynamic on-the-fly changes to the delay while watching the program material. It also offers up to 680 ms of delay whereas many receivers only offer 100 ms which is not enough delay for many situations. I happen to have one that requires about 150 ms and I have heard of some requiring over 400. The Felston DD540 offers 680 ms of delay which will still be over 340 ms if we eventually go to 96KHZ which it can handle.

So, before you actually buy a new receiver to get a lip-sync adjustment, look closely at how they "implement" that adjustment: Is it a button on the remote that you can press while watching the program material to change the delay and immdiately SEE if it helped or hurt? Or is it the inadequate single delay setting imbedded down in a set-up menu that I have seen on all the new av receivers claiming this lip-sync "feature"?

Please email me if you have found "any" av receiver that actually allows the control that the Felston DD540 does because I am telling my customers that the Felston DD540 is the "only" solution that has actually done it right. I'm sure some av receiver manufacturer will eventually do what the DD540 does but so far I haven't found one. But even if I do, adding a DD540 will still be far more cost effective for most of my customers than replacing their av receiver since it's only $230.
 

woolamai

Audiophyte
Hi all,

I haven't read the entire thread, but I do know the lip sync problem is a major issue and a huge source of annoyance for everyone affected. I have an older Sony STR DE875 receiver (no audio delay options) hooked up to a Samsung SP61L3H DLP rear projection and Samsung DVD HD 747 dvd player. The TV was connected to the DVD via analogue RCA jacks (yes lazy I know). The lip sync problems I was experienceing were horrendous. So I called Samsung (and emailed them numerous times) for some "support". They were no help at all, and I mean no help. They didn't acknowledge the problem and would not send someone out. Also, I really do questions' their expertise also....

Anyway, on a punt I bought a DVI - HDMI connection which someone told me, would negate the need for the TV to do any processing at all (?).

To date, this seems to have worked and is definitely worth a try.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I had to dredge this thread up from the Father Time files. I hope someone can shed some light on what is going on with my setup.

I recently made two changes to my system...new 58" Panny plasma (720P) and moved from Dishnet to Directv. I've not experienced lip synch issues until going to Directv. But my issue is NOT with a delayed video signal. I wish it was, because I can handle that with my Yamaha Rx. My problem is a pronounced delay in audio. (Yeah, there is no way to speed up the audio. :confused:) Lip synch delay is irritating to say the least.

It is more noticeable on some channels than others, and HD channels most of all. But all have some minor or greater (~1/2 second with the worst?!) audio delay. My setup has HDMI going from the Directv HD-DVR to the tv, and optical going to the A/V Rx. The delay exists both on the tv speakers via the HDMI (when I turn them on) and the surround system (via the optical).

I've spoken with Tech Support (the usual competency...:p... levels in place) at Directv. First they blamed it on Dolby Digital...then on the DVR needing to be reset and channeled up and down and rewound and then forward again...grrrr...then on my system. I finally moved up the food chain to talk to the network guys, and they said they'd take a look at the most offending channels and get back to me. Well of course they haven't "gotten back to me". The worst channel was USAHD. That seemed to get better the next day. Yesterday, I couldn't even watch A&EHD...but all channels were/are off by just a little (again, some a bit more than others), but all with audio delay...not video. It is noticeable on the other, non-HD receivers/tv's, as well.

Maybe next Directv will tell me it's my ears not keeping up with my eyes, eh?!

Any ideas? Does anyone else experience the problem? TIA.
 

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