Assistance in selecting computer speakers

J

julesx

Enthusiast
Hi there. This is my first post here, and to be honest I know next to nothing about speakers. I recently purchased a 32 inch HDTV to use as my computer screen, and am looking to purchase some equally attractive high quality speakers for my sound system. These speakers would be primarily used for playing music from my computer or my ipods line out.

I am looking for 2 speakers only..I dont wan't a surround sound setup as I simply dont have the space to set it up properly, nor do I want to run wires through the ground/walls. I would prefer not to buy an amp if possible, but I understand that may not be possibly, and that sound quality would suffer. I also would like tower speakers.

I went to futureshop yesterday and was offered Energy Reference Connoisseur 4-way Tower Speakers (RC-70) for ~1500 bucks. Id post the link but im not allowed! They are on futureshop.ca website for 2499.99. store, they really did sound great, especially after listening to all the cheaper ones side by side at high volume. Reading the posts here, it seems a decent set up can run you much less? I'd really like to get some price points ranging from 500 - 2000, more to see whats available then anything else, even if its out of my budget.

Can a speaker noob get some advice? Anything would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
If your looking at floorstanders, You will need to get an external amplifier. The only time you wouldnt is if you had powered speakers. Most of the powered speakers on the market are bookshelves geared towards the recording industry.

Your already ahead of the game by going out and listening to speakers. If you find something you really like, Buy it! There's always going to be something else someone thinks is better.

Since you only want 2 channel and probably dont want to fuss with a bunch of stuff I would reccomend getting an integrated amplifier. Something like the NAD C372

You may also want to look at other options for your sources. Almost seems like a waste to spend that much on speakers only to use them off an ipod and computer. Perhaps the Squeezebox would be right up your alley,

http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html
 
J

julesx

Enthusiast
Thanks much for your input.

My issue is the difference in price! I could spend between 500 and 2000 dollars on this speaker set up, and I want to know what the "sweet spot" is as far as buying my first pair of serious speakers. I want to buy something that will last me a good long while.

What is the difference between an integrated and non - integrated amplifier??

I was offered the harmon kardon AVR154. How does it compare to the NAD C372?

A waste to spend so much on speakers only to use them off my ipod?! I live for my music :D Unless you are referring to quality loss, I don't really need a squeezebox seeing as how I only need music in one room.

Thanks again
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
The sweet spot is basically like this, If you can afford to spend 2k on a pair of speakers then you should. You really do get what you pay for, Especially with speakers.

An integrated amp has the Preamplifier and Amplifier in one component. Which means less wires to hook up and less components. Generally they are higher quality than a reciever which is more mass market and contains a radio along with video switching most times.

The Harman Kardon you were offered is a surround sound reciever, Which you dont need if you only want stereo. The NAD unit is better peice in every way, Except features perhaps because it doesnt have a bunch of useless crap you dont need anyway.

Im not aware of what the quality of the output is on the current generation Ipods, But If you do just keep the Ipod as the source i would get a good dock that will give you full line level output voltage. I know the squeezebox says its all about multi room audio and whatever but if you wanted to play your music off a computer it gives you the sound quality, and the ability to control your music with a remote which is kind of a plus.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
That sweet spot is the place between what you can afford and what your ears tell you you want. Thats different for everybody.

In my case, I was a little afraid of what my ears will tell me, so I didn't audition many speakers above my price range. :rolleyes:

If you can, go someplace where they have dedicated listening rooms, take some material you are familiar with, and listen to a bunch of different speakers. I think the dedicated listening room is a must. There is a lot of backround noise in your average Future Shop and that can really interfere with what you are hearing.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Would you be willing to spend a bit more? You are very close to being able to buy a true reference quality system, if you piece together the right parts/products. I am talking about a system that will cost around $3500, give or take a few bucks, be be equal to or better than most $10k speaker systems. It's really very simple to do, but it just requires a bit of unconventional set up to pull it off - request me to explain this basic set up if you so desire.

-Chris
 
zeuiax

zeuiax

Audioholic
Would you be willing to spend a bit more? You are very close to being able to buy a true reference quality system, if you piece together the right parts/products. I am talking about a system that will cost around $3500, give or take a few bucks, be be equal to or better than most $10k speaker systems. It's really very simple to do, but it just requires a bit of unconventional set up to pull it off - request me to explain this basic set up if you so desire.

-Chris
i would like to know too
 
J

julesx

Enthusiast
What does "reference quality system" mean?

As far as the 3500 goes...I would much rather spend more now so I'm not forced to upgrade later. I'd also like to reiterate that really I'm only interested in two tower speakers simply because of space considerations. I have pretty much no free space whatsoever on my computer desk. However, I would like the ability to upgrade to a surround system later?

Anyways, consider this a request for this 3500 "basic set up". You guys have been great!

Edit: I already have a subwoofer.
Edit again: A lot of other posters here seem to find what kind of music the speakers are intended for to be an important factor, so I guess I should too. These speakers will be primarily for house and drum&bass music.
 
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Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
You mentioned space on your computer desk. I am curious now, Where did you intend to place the speakers and sit in relation to them? The setup of your system is extremely important. The types of speakers your looking at require you to be sitting somewhere in the area of about 8' away, They also require some good distance between them. Roughly 8' as well. If you were going to, for example, get some floorstanders and just place them on each side of your desk and listen to them while using the computer then you will be really dissapointed in the sound.

Perhaps pictures of the room you want to use them in will also help
 
J

julesx

Enthusiast
Haoleb, that is actually exactly what i was planning on doing. :(

If I would really be sacrificing that much in sound quality, I can remove my second screen from my desk which would leave me with enough space on either side of the screen for speakers. I'd post a picture but I'm at work.
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
The problem is that the type of speakers your looking at are not meant for nearfield use (sitting close to them) You really need to be a few feet away for them to sound balanced, As well as have them a good bit apart to have a good soundstage. You're willing to spend enough money to get a very nice system though. If all of your listening will be done sitting at the computer perhaps you should look into some powered studio monitors. Or maybe headphones!
 
J

julesx

Enthusiast
Headphones don't quite fit the bill :p

Powered studio monitors..hmm. Any recommendations?
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
Jules, check my signature, maybe you can get some ideas for your computer setup. To gain some space in your desk, mount the LCD and the speakers on the wall (or on shelves).

You'll be very close to the speakers, there's no (satisfactory) way you can use floor standers. You're just too close to them.

I advise on getting some near field studio monitors. They're made to be used close to you.
A point you have to remember if you're going the "studio way", you may be disappointed with some speakers. Many of these units are made to present a sound without coloration and will have a planar frequency response. What this ultimately means is that you may find the music "raw" and without warmness.
Another point is that you should try to get front ported units, these will have the bass port on the front. The reason for this is that rear ports, next to walls will make the bass bigger and muddier. Rear ports should be plugged when close to the wall.
On the other hand, front ported units will blow air right into your face (music with bass content and at higher volumes). Some people don't stand this.

To compensate on the small size of the speakers (unless you can get a unit with a 8" driver) and if you want more bass, ponder on the acquisition of a subwoofer.

Go to stores (hifi, musician, dj and common home appliances stores) and take your ipod with you. Connect them to the speakers (or receivers) and sit close to them (try to mimic your home setup). Your ears will do the rest ;)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Okay, I'll explain the basic reasoning and some specific products that meet the requirements.

1st, realize that it is far more expensive/difficult to produce a full size(floorstanding) speaker that is of low resonance(from the standpoint of the cabinet itself). As you increase the size of the cabinet, you have to use proportionately more effort to reduce the cabinet vibration. Also, the LF output of most floorstanders is not very impressive compared to even basic good quality power subwoofer systems.

2nd, realize that most people go around looking for speaker by listening to it - and trying to find their preferred frequency response curve. This is a waste of time and effort because you can, with proper equipment, adjust this curve to your preference, and as such, it will be a better fit for your tastes, since you were able to shape the response to exactly what you prefer. But, very few speakers are suited to being adjusted to your preference, because most speakers have substantial driver related resonances, deviations and cabinet resonances. You need a speaker that is, at least, mostly neutral to begin with, for you to be able to successfully adjust it's response to suite you ideally. This means, also, it does not matter if you like how the speaker sounds when it is not adjusted; because what is important is that it is objectively neutral.

3rd, if you use this speaker mid or far field, the off axis response should follow the on axis as closely as possible; you want the room ambient sound to match the on axis sound, this is critical for sound quality, as is demonstrated by credible perceptual research time and time again.

One of the lowest priced speakers I know of that will fit this bill is the B&W 705. This speaker has lower cabinet resonance than most in it's price bracket(its not a totally neutral cabinet - but it is a vast improvement over most). It has superb drivers with low energy storage, and a very flat frequency response, on and off axis. The response off axis is extremely well behaved, and similar to on axis, even up to about 10kHz, and still decent above 10kHz, compared to most other speakers. Yes, this is a bookshelf sized speaker. But it's small size also offers less cabinet surface area to vibrate and radiate sound energy. But this is also a benefit -- with this speaker you get a superb midbass and treble module. Now, we can pair this with a set of high quality stereo subwoofers. You can also use this speaker nearfield with no problem, as it's midbass and treble drivers are located very closely to each other, and as such, will integrate even at 2' distance from the speaker with no problem.

It is said time and time again that subwoofers never really integrate with speakers for music purposes. Well, this not true as a rule, it's just true in most cases because these people don't have a clue how to properly integrate subwoofers seamlessly. You really need to use stereo subwoofers, and you need to cross the subs low enough compared to the point where the subwoofer itself starts to have resonance issues. The bigger the sub, generally, the lower in frequency it will start to have issue, even though this does not have to be true, but it is based on the typical construction/design of these units.

You can use the subs under the bookshelf sized speakers. You can use short stands or some other spacer between them to get the right height, if space is at a premium. Or just use normal stands and place each sub within 1/2 wavelength of the crossover frequency you use to integrate the subwoofers to the mains. With these B&W speakers, I would cross around 80-90Hz ported, or 90-100Hz sealed(if you plug the ports, which is what I would prefer). For the subs, I recommend a pair with quality along the lines of at least the entry level $400 SVS offering. This is just a suggestion. Ideally, you would have some cabinets built to spec and have a DIY pair of subwoofers. You can get far more performance for the money using this route as compared to any commercial offering.

Now, I mentioned proper integration. A reciever's internal crossover is not likely going to cut it. And you can't just run the mains full range and then blend the sub to them with the sub's crossover(though this is a popular method). You must use a precision device such as a Behringer DCX2496. You can get Behringer, or you can get much more expensive alternative makes, if you are not comfortable with Behringer equipment. I personally have no problem with the DCX2496; I have two of them on two different systems and they perform transparently. This device has very powerful variable crossover abilities. It also has very powerful parametric and shelving equalization abilities, that will let you adjust your speaker's response to your preferences. It can be linked to your PC with a serial cable and you can use it's wonderful GUI software interface to adjust/configure the unit. Or you can use the unit's front panel - but I highly prefer the GUI. The equalization panel lets you literally draw the response you want by dragging your mouse around on a graph. Very nifty.

So, following the recommendation above, you would have a very high quality neutral mid-treble module mated actively to a pair of high quality LF modules. Using the DSP hardware I recommend you can integrate the mid-treble and LF modules seamlessly, and adjust the response to your preference.

Do not neglect acoustical treatments. These are CRITICAL in any configuration or with any speaker system you get/use. My favorite commercially available unit are the Ready Acoustics Chameleons. These are very reasonable cost, and very high grade cosmetically. They have powder coated metal frames and the actual panels are covered with a high grade of suede-like micro fiber; the grade you find on better quality furniture. They are about $130 each last time I checked. If you place your speakers 2' or closer to the wall, behind, you should use 2 of these panels per speaker, to eliminate most of the reflection across a wide bandwidth from behind. This is the absolute minimum treatment. You should use more to optimize the room acoustics, but this is a starting point that you can work from.

For the amplifier, I highly recommend a high powered professional a mplifier. These are very reasonable in cost and very high in performance. The Yamaha P2500S would be perfect to mate with the B&W speakers. It also produces no fan noise, unlike most pro amps, and this is one of my main reasons for recommending this unit.

These are just some basic outlines; please ask specific questions for a better explanation of any issue(s) mentioned above.

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Here is a good deal IMO on a pair of B&W 805 at audiogon
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1221868994

According to stereophile they have a very inert cabinet and measure very well.
After reviewing the sum of measurements for this older 805 speaker, I can say it is nearly as good in terms of flat response as the 705(in fact, overall, it is even smoother), but it does have some added boost in the upper treble. But this is a smooth and predictable boos/bump and can easily be compensated with a simple shelf filter on a DCX2496 device. The cabinet is substantially lower in output as even compared to the 705. The off axis response is not quite as good as the 705. I would expect the 805, combined with the DCX2496 and stereo subwoofers, to be of even superior audible performance because of the superior cabinet, in terms of cabinet panel vibration.

It s anyone's guess if the new 805s has equal quality measurements. I say this because the B&W801N, for example, was inferior to the late 80's B&W 801 Matrix Series II, in terms of driver response linearity and off axis response.

If you can find a pair of mint condition 805 for a good price, I would say go for it, for the purposes discussed in this thread.

-Chris
 
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J

julesx

Enthusiast
Wow. WmAx, that sounds like a project I could really sink my teeth into. It's taken a couple days just to make sense of it :p

A few questions...When buying neutral speakers that you adjust to your preference, what specs are you looking for in a speaker? You say the B&W's are top quality in that respect. I read some FAQ's on this site but it's still a fair bit over my head. I'm still learning. Anyways, I have a friend who works at futureshop and can get me quite a deal on speakers/subs. Is there anything you could recommend off their web site that fits the bill?

A budget question: You said earlier this was possible for ~3500$. If you were to buy the parts in pieces over a period of time, how would you do it?

Placement. You say I can use the subs under the bookshelf sized speakers with a spacer stand in between? So I would have the subs on my desk, on either side of my screen, with the speaker sitting on top?

A side note: I bought some axiom audiobytes (computer speakers) to tide me over. I could barely tell the difference from my old junker speakers, and this actually really drove home what you say about not being able to integrate the speakers and the sub. The amp is great, but it seems like the bass is just overpowering and the rest of the song suffers. And then one of them broke....
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
A few questions...When buying neutral speakers that you adjust to your preference, what specs are you looking for in a speaker?
1) Low as possible cabinet resonance.

2) Flat as possible frequency response on-axis.

3) For mid or far field listening: flat as possible frequency response on AND off axis.

There are many more measured parameters that are important - but the ones above will make the main difference among competently designed speakers in the same price range, generally speaking.

You say the B&W's are top quality in that respect.
Well, for the price-range of a NEW speaker, they are pretty much the best in regards to the parameters above. However, if you were willing to go used, you could get even better speakers.

Anyways, I have a friend who works at futureshop and can get me quite a deal on speakers/subs. Is there anything you could recommend off their web site that fits the bill?
I looked at the bookshelf speakers offered. Not one is suitable for the purposes I have discussed in this thread. None of the units offered on that site has sufficient neutral behavior. Even the B&W 705 is what I consider borderline for this purpose.

A budget question: You said earlier this was possible for ~3500$. If you were to buy the parts in pieces over a period of time, how would you do it?
It's difficult to say. I make the suggested set up as a working system. Removing parts of this system will make it behave radically different than I intended.
Placement. You say I can use the subs under the bookshelf sized speakers with a spacer stand in between? So I would have the subs on my desk, on either side of my screen, with the speaker sitting on top?
If you want the speakers on the desk, then you would place the subs next to the computer desk: one sub on each side.

A side note: I bought some axiom audiobytes (computer speakers) to tide me over. I could barely tell the difference from my old junker speakers, and this actually really drove home what you say about not being able to integrate the speakers and the sub. The amp is great, but it seems like the bass is just overpowering and the rest of the song suffers. And then one of them broke....
If you want a temporary low cost speaker to 'tide you over', I highly recommend the KRK ROKIT 5. It is a powered two way studio monitor of very high quality for the price. I can not recommend a better all-in-one solution for the price to use as a computer speaker system. I have thoroughly measured/analyzed the ROKIT5 and it suggest it based on the extraordinary (for the price) results I obtained. However, even with this, I highly recommend placing the suggested broad band absorbers behind the speakers, as a minimum acoustical treatment.

-Chris
 

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