Aragon, Acurus, and speaker protection

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Acurus and Aragon amps and pre's are both well respected in the Hi-Fi industry.
I was surprised to hear that their amplifiers did not have a speaker protection circuit. Knowing this and knowing they have been in business since the 80's, I was more surprised not to find accounts of speakers being damaged (via Google search).
Curiosity got the best of me, so I decided to ask Indy Audio Labs about it.

Here is my email to them:
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:52 PM
To: support@indyaudiolabs.com
Subject: Question about speaker protection circuitry

It seems that in the past, Acurus and Aragon have designed their amplifiers without speaker protection.

I have searched to find accounts of speakers being damaged because of the absence of this circuitry, but do not readily find such posts.

I have to believe that Acurus/Aragon did not make this decision without some forethought going into it, so I was hoping you might speak to how and why speaker protection was not deemed worth incorporating into the equipment.
Also, did pre-Klipsh amps have protection circuitry?

Thanks,

Kurt
and here is their response:
Subject: RE: Question about speaker protection circuitry
Date: Oct 11, 2010 11:27 PM

Hello Kurt,

Thanks for taking the time to email us on this topic.

The pre-Klipsch amps were identical to the Klipsch-era amps with regard to protection mechanisms. With any protection scheme, it's important to associate the failure modes that could lead to speaker damage to the failures that are to be protected against:

Output Device Overheating:
One of the failure mechanisms is pure overheating of the amplifier card leading to device failures (which could lead ultimately to speaker damage). To protect against overheating, all the Aragon and Acurus amps used a similar thermal sensor mounted on the heat sink which immediately cuts the signal applied to the amp in the event the temperature exceeds a preset protection threshold. Once the amp cools down again, the circuit is automatically reset.

Internal Component Failure:
All the Aragon and Acurus amps prevent internal component failures from resulting in speaker damage by opening the supply rails at the particular channel with fast-acting fuses. In the case of a component failure, a blown fuse is not a nuisance but an indicator that service work needs to be done to determine the cause and repair the amp before continued use. This is a reason why the rail fuses were located internally where generally only service personnel would work.

Output DC:
Significant DC at the amp output is one of the most likely causes of speaker failure. All amps were adjusted for DC offset at the factory and nearly all the designs except the early 4004 were of the DC servo variety. The pre-Klipsch Aragon amps (not the Acurus amps) and the Klipsch-era Aragon Palladium and 8008 and all their variations had output relays with DC offset detection.

Other mechanisms:
There are other protection mechanisms in all the Aragon and Acurus amps to deal with excessive transformer temperatures, external ground faults, excess current draw from the mains, inductive loudspeaker loads, etc... These mechanisms ultimately help protect the speakers by protecting the amp. The Aragon and Acurus amps generally did not employ output device current limiting or input signal limiting (in an effort to prevent failure in the output devices) as the most reliable and transparent of these circuits are typically quite expensive and many engineers deem them to be of limited value unless used for pro sound reinforcement applications.

Going forward:
We at Indy Audio Labs intend to provide at least as much protection as the predecessor designs we're starting from. Of course we'll be applying grueling tests to our amps prior to release to ensure they're safe and "do no harm". We'll also be adding the benefits of microprocessor monitoring of internal conditions to some of our new designs. However, as you point out, there is no history that we can see, of Aragon or Acurus amps having any reputation for damaging loudspeakers due to design inadequacies. To the contrary, these amps have been some of the most reliable on the market since the late 1980's. Having spent a few years in audio service early in my career, it was ironic to observe how many amp "failures" were attributable to failures of very elaborate protection circuits rather than the amps themselves.

Best Regards,
Rick




Indy Audio Labs, LLC
http://www.indyaudiolabs.com
main: +1 (866) 559-5113
mailto:support@indyaudiolabs.com
Certainly, I do not have adequate electronics background to really evaluate this response, so was hoping to get some discussion from those of you who do.

Thanks,
Kurt

PS - permission was obtained to post this.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I remember Dr. Mark (TLS) discussing the DC output protection (IIRC) I'll try to dig that thread up.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I remember Dr. Mark (TLS) discussing the DC output protection (IIRC) I'll try to dig that thread up.
This is the only part I have found so far, but Im sure there was more
The problem is that an audio signal is a complex AC signal, and the speakers voice coil is a reactive load. So they handle complex audio signals up to their power rating fine. As soon as the speaker is presented with DC there is no back EMF and the voice coil heats VERY quickly,
Its seems from their reply that dc protection has been addressed, though Im not sure. Ill stick with the Mac way of an autoformer for sure fire protection.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The pre-Klipsch Aragon amps (not the Acurus amps) and the Klipsch-era Aragon Palladium and 8008 and all their variations had output relays with DC offset detection.

It seems like the Aragon amps had it, but the pre-Klipsch Acurus amps did NOT?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The pre-Klipsch Aragon amps (not the Acurus amps) and the Klipsch-era Aragon Palladium and 8008 and all their variations had output relays with DC offset detection.

It seems like the Aragon amps had it, but the pre-Klipsch Acurus amps did NOT?
You know you want it:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1291141597&/Aragon-Palladium-1K-upgrade-co

What a deal!! Those even comes with Bybees!!!:rolleyes:

Note: j/k on the Bybees, ATDG knows better, but I don't want to mislead anyone.
 
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