Anthem AVM 90 15.4CH Processor Review

[William Lemmerhirt]

The problem is that the DBT conditions are NOT EXACTLY met.

In this case, it was NOT even a DBT. It was a little single-blind test involving only 3 people, not Double-Blind-Test.

We don't expect audio studies to be the same quality/quantity as drug studies, but most published audio studies have at least 20 test subjects to be even considered "STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT" and are double-blind, not single-blind.

So this review wasn't a DBT. It was a simple audio test on just THREE people. We can all make what we will out of this, but it should be noted for what it was - a single-blind test on just THREE people where the test giver knew exactly which product was which, NOT a DBT.

And many of us have done the same with speakers. We would set up a switch box to compare speakers and invite a few people. Just a fun experiment. And if THREE people preferred the B&W 802D2 over the Salon2 in this little test, I would NOT claim that the 802D2 sounded better than the Salon2, or vice versa

Normally, I wouldn't say anything much, as @PENG noted. But this is for AUDIOHOLICS, which we all hold to much higher standards than everyone else.

Ok that’s fair. I shouldn’t have said “exactly”, but it’s 50 times more than most people can say that come here. This thread isn’t even close to some, but did remind me of some threads where no matter what, it’s not good enough.

 

[TheoN]

The problem is that the DBT conditions are NOT EXACTLY met.

In this case, it was NOT even a DBT. It was a little single-blind test involving only 3 people, not Double-Blind-Test.

We don't expect audio studies to be the same quality/quantity as drug studies, but most published audio studies have at least 20 test subjects to be even considered "STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT" and are double-blind, not single-blind.

So this review wasn't a DBT. It was a simple audio test on just THREE people. We can all make what we will out of this, but it should be noted for what it was - a single-blind test on just THREE people where the test giver knew exactly which product was which, NOT a DBT.

And many of us have done the same with speakers. We would set up a switch box to compare speakers and invite a few people. Just a fun experiment. And if THREE people preferred the B&W 802D2 over the Salon2 in this little test, I would NOT claim that the 802D2 sounded better than the Salon2, or vice versa

Normally, I wouldn't say anything much, as @PENG noted. But this is for AUDIOHOLICS, which we all hold to much higher standards than everyone else.

Name 5 review in the past year where a reviewer has sat down individuals other than themselves to listen to a product and performed an A/B on a switcher level matched. In fact point to three reviews in Sound And Vision, Stereophile or even Amir who that have done a double blind test or even A/B listening with someone other than the reviewer.

In this instance the listeners had no idea about model number or features or anything between the AVM 90 or AVM 60.

I think the root issue of what you are trying to argue is that measured performance doesn’t matter or is inaudible within certain parameters.

At that point, I think you need to articulate exactly what you believe those parameters are.

I’ll simply re-point to the facts: The AVM 90 has exceptional performance, and indeed, its measured performance is among the best we have ever had here at Audioholics. In my review environment, testing with three individuals, in addition to myself (four) we were each able to point out differences between the 60 and the 90. Whether those differences are audible in someone else’s system, or whether those differences matter are up to the prospective buyer and we ALWAYS advocate that prospective buyers listen for themselves and make up their mind. It’s that simple.

 

[PENG]

Ok that’s fair. I shouldn’t have said “exactly”, but it’s 50 times more than most people can say that come here. This thread isn’t even close to some, but did remind me of some threads where no matter what, it’s not good enough.

Couldn't agree more, but 50 times? I would say infinitely better, than those who didn't do any sort of blind listening comparisons, let alone doing it together in a group of even 2 persons, and comparing notes after. Having said that, I bet the thread would have been much more interesting if it is about a similar tests on the AVM90 vs the AV10.

It should be doable, as Gene, or Matthew likely still has the AV10. I know it is a tall order, given that such controlled blind tests are time consuming to do, especially if they would do it with more than just 3 people (on that, I agree with ADTG's point, 6 would have been 4X as good lol...).

I am singling out those two because a) they costs about the same, b) they have almost the same measurements on SINAD, SNR/DNR, IMD and a few other metrics. Even on SINAD, they don't just measured similar on a single point, and using just 1 kHz test signal, but on multiple points, and using different test signal frequencies. So, for people on the objective side, like me, it would not have been easy to choose between those 2. I would lean on the AV10 only because I am of the opinion that Dirac Live, or even Audyssey with the MultEQ X app would give me prettier REW graphs to look at, but I don't believe prettier looking REW graphs in this case would mean much in terms of audible sound quality, and I may be bias on one RC against the other.

 

[PENG]

Always appreciate your input, Peng. You are very objective.

Thanks, being objective may not fun, but I think just by trying hard to be objective, might save me spending more going forward, than I would otherwise.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I bet the thread would have been much more interesting if it is about a similar tests on the AVM90 vs the AV10.

I am singling out those two because a) they costs about the same, b) they have almost the same measurements on SINAD, SNR/DNR, IMD and a few other metrics. Even on SINAD, they don't just measured similar on a single point, and using just 1 kHz test signal, but on multiple points, and using different test signal frequencies. So, for people on the objective side, like me, it would not have been easy to choose between those 2.

I would lean on the AV10 only because I am of the opinion that Dirac Live, or even Audyssey with the MultEQ X app would give me prettier REW graphs to look at, but I don't believe prettier looking REW graphs in this case would mean much in terms of audible sound quality, and I may be bias on one RC against the other.

So Objectively, Dirac and Audyssey produced more linear/smoother REW FR graphs than Anthem ARC?

If people are spending thousands of their money and spending days of their lives on these RC, I would assume that getting the most linear/smoothest REW graphs is their ultimate and salient goal.

I mean who wants to spend about $8K on an AVP only to have REW graphs that don't even look as good as Audyssey?

So which RC produces the most linear/smoothest REW FR graphs? Dirac?

 

[PENG]

So Objectively, Dirac and Audyssey produced more linear/smoother REW FR graphs than Anthem ARC?

If people are spending thousands of their money and spending days of their lives on these RC, I would assume that getting the most linear/smoothest REW graphs is their ultimate and salient goal.

I mean who wants to spend about $8K on an AVP only to have REW graphs that don't even look as good as Audyssey?

So which RC produces the most linear/smoothest REW FR graphs? Dirac?

Based on most of the REW graphs posted on ASR, including my own, yes. I am not sure that's universally true though, surely those who thought ARCG is better will disagree with me, but I would like them to post their measurements like I have done. I would very much like to see Gene's REW graphs on his AV10 and AVM90 or any of the MRX models such as the 1140. Iirc, he said he was going to have a review on Anthem's, and I assumed he meant with measurements. Theo has the AVM90 so hopefully they would eventually do a detailed review on AARCG.

 

[buckchester]

Maybe the sound quality differences between the 60 and 90 are more to do with the 60 being flawed? Just looking at the measurements of each over at ASR and the 60 did not perform well.

 

[PENG]

Maybe the sound quality differences between the 60 and 90 are more to do with the 60 being flawed? Just looking at the measurements of each over at ASR and the 60 did not perform well.

Relatively speaking, yes, that's why @Cos and I would have preferred that he compared the 90 to the 70, that measured a lot better. Still the AVM60's measurements seem to indicate sufficient transparency, going by generally accepted distortions threshold. So given that the difference seem so audible in Theo's test session with consistent results among 3 people, I have to guess that it might have been IMD and/or jitter.

Even IMD, the 60 didn't too too bad, but then we all know IMD is less forgiving so the 60's might just be high enough to make it audibly bad when compared to the pristine performance of the 90.

On AVSF, those compared the 90 to the 70, the majority heard enough difference to opt for the 70, but none that I know of had compared the two like Theo did, and in my own unscientific comparison in the dealers, I walked away with the 70 so I guess if it is a case of 90 vs 70, the results might not have been as dramatic.

Having said that, just for kicks, read a few posts on AVSF when one posted his comparison between the AV10, and AVM90: Note: Theo likely have read this poster's and I bet even he would have some skepticism, but as the poster forewarned "For equal double blind testing folks, this review isn’t for you – please look elsewhere.", so there is no point commenting on such a review, just read it for fun, curiosity, or whatever, otherwise ignore it and you might expect "over the top" kind of things in such reviews...

I am citing this particular one, because it is a comparison between two that based on ASR, and Audioholics.com's measurements, are so similar, practically identical in some cases, so go figure!

Marantz AV10 vs Anthem AV90 | Page 13 | AVS Forum
He made clear of the following:

All serious die-hard music listening was done in 2-channel only. No sound modes, no extra EQ, no extra channels, no outboard subwoofers (the 7001’s have built in subs so they are fairly full range).

I did not do double blind testing with level matching and a switcher. I did try to level match as close as possible, but each unit was tested separately at different times. I ran the Marantz for about 2 weeks, then the Anthem for about 2 weeks, then the Marantz / Anthem back and forth for 2 days, twice each. For equal double blind testing folks, this review isn’t for you – please look elsewhere.


Nothing is night and day, or life changing, or holy crap dramatic. Anyone who says that has bionic super ears. But the differences ARE very clear for sure.

All judgements here are for 2 channel MUSIC listening.

Comparisons…….

As another much more qualified forum member stated, the 90 has a 3D type sound quality. In comparison, the 10 is more 2D.

The 90 floats music out into the room, while the 10 is more flat inside the speakers.

With the 90, if you close your eyes, it’s hard to tell where exactly in space where the sound is coming from. With the 10 the sound is definitely coming from each speaker.

The 10 is extremely detailed and defined. Each and every pluck can be heard separately. The 90 is also very detailed, but it’s more “free” and loose.

The 90 is wide and loose, while the 10 is tight and restricted.

The 10 has a perceived quieter noise floor. It’s dead quiet. I didn’t perceive this on the 90.

The 10 has an actual lower “ear” noise floor in my system. With my ear on each speaker, I could hear some hiss and hum from the 90. I got none from the 10.

The 90 presentation has soul and emotion. The 10 is, in comparison, flat and lacks that “something” that makes it human.

The 90 sounds fluently “real” while the 10 sounds more decisively “robotic” or clinical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The 10 is extremely detailed and defined. Each and every pluck can be heard separately. The 90 is also very detailed, but it’s more “free” and loose.

The 10 has a perceived quieter noise floor. It’s dead quiet. I didn’t perceive this on the 90.

The 10 has an actual lower “ear” noise floor in my system. With my ear on each speaker, I could hear some hiss and hum from the 90. I got none from the 10.

The 90 sounds fluently “real” while the 10 sounds more decisively “robotic” or clinical.

AV10: "Extremely Detailed, Dead Quiet, and Sounds Clinical"
AVM90: "Free and Loose, Hiss and Hum Noise, Sounds Real"

I would interpret him saying that the Marantz is more detailed, quieter and less bass and the Anthem is more bass, but more noise and less detailed.

I bet if he could set both exactly the same, they would sound the same. But it's very difficult to set up 2 different brands of AVP exactly the same.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think I say this before, if I had a room/speaker curve like this, I would leave it alone too!! I don't want to get into whether the "vast majority" or rooms are as good or not, but yours is very good indeed. I would check more than just one mic position, but a few more around it, say 6 to 12 inches just to see what kind of variations you may be getting, though if it is that good at the mmp, it probably will still be very good when you move your head a few inches in any direction.

I have only just seen this post. But here are the room curves from the center front and center rear seats. The curve I showed it center middle seat which is the MLP. You can see that the impulse responses are arriving at the MLP at the same time. Obviously there can only be one point in the room where that happens.

Here is the center front seat.

Here is the center back seat.

In the back seat the bass rise is greater as you would expect. There is a dip centered on 1.5 KHz in the back. When you sit there, and I do at times, it sounds as if you have a seat in the Mezzanine or balcony, and it is not at all unpleasant.

The room and system is neutral enough that the sound is dominated by the recording venue and not the system. One concert hall, or church sounds significantly different from another. I think that is a real and valid test of whether your total design is on the whole neutral.

 

[PENG]

AV10: "Extremely Detailed, Dead Quiet, and Sounds Clinical"

Normally, when I see such seemingly highly exaggerated remarks, I would totally discount anything else the poster said, because, as Gene commented:

The AVM 90 also has numerous upgrades over the AVM 60 as he stated. That said, I doubt most people, including Theo and myself would be able to discern audible differences between two top teir processors like the Marantz AV 10 and Anthem AVM 90 if they are both set up similarly.

AVM90: "Free and Loose, Hiss and Hum Noise, Sounds Real"

Normally, when I see such description, I would say the poster should addressed the "Hiss and Hum noise", that should not be audible even with the ears within a few inches from the speakers. Theo never noticed the same if I remember correctly, the AVM90's measured SNR/DNR is as good as and better than many so called separates. Speaker sensitivity could be an issue, but in this case, the poster said the AV10 was quiet, yet the AV10 did not measure better than the AVM90.

I bet if he could set both exactly the same, they would sound the same. But it's very difficult to set up 2 different brands of AVP exactly the same.

I would make the same bet, but only conducted in DBT (well, may be just SBT like Theo's did would do too) and make sure they are compared in apples to apples way in terms of everything else.

I never have any doubt about what Theo said in his AVM90 vs AVM60, but if he had done the AVM90 vs the AV10 like this AVS poster has done, then I would "bet" that the results and conclusions like what Gene alluded to, and I quoted him earlier, would be apparent.

It is important to keep in mind that in studies such as those conducted and written about loudspeaker listening comparisons by Dr. Olive and Toole. In those studies, frequency response and distortions were often found to be the largest factors that determined what most people prefer. Amplifiers (AV10 Vs AVM90 done by that AVS member basically were comparing two amps because he use no dsp, no multichannel, sort of no nothing lol..), so given that those two measured so well in SINAD and FR, it is just unbelievable that the AVS OP could actually hear the difference if he did it the way Dr. Toole/Dr. Olive did.

 

[Kym]

Hoping someone out there can help.

I have just started to setup an AVM90 and have found that the unit allows a 5.4.6 speaker arrangement but when running ARC it seems to require Backs to enable the Height 3s.

Any thoughts on how to deal with this?