Acoustic Transmission Line Speakers ??

LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
I was reading about Acoustic Zen Crescendo Speakers that are TL design. WOW $16,000.00 a pair and he used a Triode Corp.
20Wpc TRV-845SE amp $6,000.00. Anyone here own a pair of these? I had to Google Acoustic Transmission Line speakers ...Wikipedia and read about history,theory. Looks some what like what Paul klipsch does to the bass in the Klipschorn speakers.
 
S

saeyedoc

Junior Audioholic
Salk has been very successful selling TL speakers, just ordered a pair myself. Philharmonic also has some great ones.
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
Salk has been very successful selling TL speakers, just ordered a pair myself. Philharmonic also has some great ones.
I read about the Salk HT2-TL but they too were very expensive and required a much larger amp then I own... 4 ohm speaker 100/250 watt 88db 2.8w/1m.

What Salk did you purchase?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I read about the Salk HT2-TL but they too were very expensive and required a much larger amp then I own... 4 ohm speaker 100/250 watt 88db 2.8w/1m.

What Salk did you purchase?
Recommended amplification is 100-250 watts for the HT2-TL. The more power the better, though. :)

I liked the Acoustic Zen's I heard at RMAF 2010, but I don't recall which model it was.

Edit: Based on this picture it would seem it was the Crescendo; I liked them quite a bit.

 
S

saeyedoc

Junior Audioholic
I read about the Salk HT2-TL but they too were very expensive and required a much larger amp then I own... 4 ohm speaker 100/250 watt 88db 2.8w/1m.

What Salk did you purchase?
I bought the supercharged song towers. About 1k less/pr than the HT-2 TL and a little more sensitive I believe.
The songbirds are a TL and are only $1500/pr, but they are even less sensitive.
The Philarmonic 2s are about $2k/pr, the 1s are less, but I don't think he's going to make them anymore.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I was reading about Acoustic Zen Crescendo Speakers that are TL design. WOW $16,000.00 a pair and he used a Triode Corp.
20Wpc TRV-845SE amp $6,000.00. Anyone here own a pair of these? I had to Google Acoustic Transmission Line speakers ...Wikipedia and read about history,theory. Looks some what like what Paul klipsch does to the bass in the Klipschorn speakers.
Klipsch was a proponent of horn loading. Horn loading is totally different from TL loading. It is as different as a brass horn from an organ pipe.

I do not regard the Salk speakers as TLs. They are coupled cavity reflex speakers, and have two tuning peaks of impedance.

TL speakers have had very few good commercial designs, the vast majority being bad.

A TL is a specialized gadeckt organ pipe.

It is a reversed tapered stopped pipe, that is aperiodically damped and should have only one peak of impedance, like a sealed design.

Speaker placement is crucial, to avoid stimulating odd order harmonics.

The length of the pipe will set Fp and will have a close relationship to driver Fs.

The volume of the pipe Vp has a close relationship to the VAS of the driver.

Like sealed enclosures, they roll of 12 db per octave, however the F3 point is much lower than for the same drivers in sealed alignment.

The driver is given support over around 1.5 octaves, which is much broader support than for reflex loading.

This will illustrate what I mean.

Here is the impedance and phase angles of my R & L bass lines.

For the purposes of measurement the two 10" drivers were connected in parallel.

The peak of impedance roughly follows the area of support of the drivers. The calculated F3 is 27 Hz, however the measured F3 in their location is 20 Hz due to room gain.

The two drivers are in fact powered from separate amps. Both receive the same signal below 60 Hz, however the upper 10" driver also receives the BSC compensation signal for the 7" mid, to relive the smaller drivers.

This is the impedance curve and phase angles of the mid lines in these speakers.

The peak of impedance is at 47 Hz, and measured F3 is 44 Hz.

So these dual transmission lines are tuned one half octave apart and give support to the drivers over 2 octaves, and the support is critically damped as the impedance curves show.

Since the pressure at the drivers in is very high over the area of support, the driver excursion is small and well controlled minimizing driver distortion.

These are the speakers from which these curves were obtained.



This is the configuration of the midline.



The bass lines were built round the midlines.





The only commercial dual line TL I'm aware of was the highly regarded TDL dual line designed by John Wright.

The US price in the early eighties was $23,000 per pair.

Done well TLs deliver powerful uncolored powerful bass.

These speakers were chosen as the reference speakers to audition the final senior student projects at the Minnesota Media Institute for that portion of the students final graduating grade. In part this was due to the outstanding bass definition of these speakers, along with their accuracy in the rest of the audio spectrum.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Philarmonic 2s are about $2k/pr, the 1s are less, but I don't think he's going to make them anymore.
The Phil1 are $1.6K/pr.

I haven't heard Dennis say anything about not making them anymore?:confused:
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
TLS GUY so you are saying that SALK, Philharmonic and Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers are NOT real TL designs? Only "Your" DIY are real:rolleyes:?
They are really nice and the carpenter that built them has skills. I can see you are proud of them( I would be too) with the SEAS drivers as you named them after your self(carter your last name)... Carter...your DIY work station is a Carter? Did you apply for patent? If I recall correctly Sony use to use SEAS drivers many years ago. I am not a retired Dr.(just retired on a fixed income) that can't afford the lovely room you had built so I have to purchase equipment that are more aimed at Hoffman's Iron Law and purchase more efficent speakers (Klipsch Heritage) that you posted Bore a Hole in your head:mad:.(duh tone controls ).you Hate AVR and slam them from time to time but a AVR is all I can afford as it works great for my needs and super small den for Ht room. I have seen these pic's before and posted on your link how nice your HT room looks. But you have on several different posts gone out of you way to poke at me and my equipment.My only good piece of equipment was my Revox. Then the Dear Louis post.... I turned the other cheek on that one too. But the Klipsch comment,from last month, I did respond on and you never responded back...Please stop and think before you post as it seems like if we don't own what you own we have junk.
A new member a few weeks ago posted a thread about his vintage Warfdale speakers and you posted a paragraph about all the different companies that owned Warfdale form day one and posted to this new member sorry you purchased JUNK. Did it occur to you that you just slapped his face???
You did a good job of running him off, he had 2 posts and has not posted after that..I posted after thatif he liked the way they sound they are Not junk. I have read some of your posts over the years and usually you are polite and have been a accurate source of information. But most of the members here can not afford the major amount of money you spend on your equipment and find some of your remarks a bit "KURT" You tried to turn My thread about Acoustic Zen speakers to look at MY Carter speakers. My guess is you are a nice Guy but you do not realize just how some of posts hurt other members feelings as we too like what we own.You have slaped all the SALK speaker owners too now. That being said. ( I feel better now) if you have any data on Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers please post up.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS GUY so you are saying that SALK, Philharmonic and Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers are NOT real TL designs? Only "Your" DIY are real:rolleyes:?
They are really nice and the carpenter that built them has skills. I can see you are proud of them( I would be too) with the SEAS drivers as you named them after your self(carter your last name)... Carter...your DIY work station is a Carter? Did you apply for patent? If I recall correctly Sony use to use SEAS drivers many years ago. I am not a retired Dr.(just retired on a fixed income) that can't afford the lovely room you had built so I have to purchase equipment that are more aimed at Hoffman's Iron Law and purchase more efficent speakers (Klipsch Heritage) that you posted Bore a Hole in your head:mad:.(duh tone controls ).you Hate AVR and slam them from time to time but a AVR is all I can afford as it works great for my needs and super small den for Ht room. I have seen these pic's before and posted on your link how nice your HT room looks. But you have on several different posts gone out of you way to poke at me and my equipment.My only good piece of equipment was my Revox. Then the Dear Louis post.... I turned the other cheek on that one too. But the Klipsch comment,from last month, I did respond on and you never responded back...Please stop and think before you post as it seems like if we don't own what you own we have junk.
A new member a few weeks ago posted a thread about his vintage Warfdale speakers and you posted a paragraph about all the different companies that owned Warfdale form day one and posted to this new member sorry you purchased JUNK. Did it occur to you that you just slapped his face???
You did a good job of running him off, he had 2 posts and has not posted after that..I posted after thatif he liked the way they sound they are Not junk. I have read some of your posts over the years and usually you are polite and have been a accurate source of information. But most of the members here can not afford the major amount of money you spend on your equipment and find some of your remarks a bit "KURT" You tried to turn My thread about Acoustic Zen speakers to look at MY Carter speakers. My guess is you are a nice Guy but you do not realize just how some of posts hurt other members feelings as we too like what we own.You have slaped all the SALK speaker owners too now. That being said. ( I feel better now) if you have any data on Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers please post up.
Well, I can afford it, but as other audiophiles and electrical engineers and doctors say, electronics just don't lie. If an AVR measure like a pre-pro and amp, it will sound like it.

And as far as speakers go, yes, how they sound to you is most important, regardless of what anyone else say.

It's okay to say facts like Klipsch, DefTech, GoldenEar, ML, etc, don't measure as accurately on graphs as some other speakers. But that does not mean they are "junk" or that they don't sound great to the owners.

Another thing. We all think our speakers are better than everyone else's speakers. :D
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
The Phil1 are $1.6K/pr.

I haven't heard Dennis say anything about not making them anymore?:confused:
To this date, no one has ordered a pair of 1's. So I've pretty much given up on them. But I have the cabinets and will certainly sell them to anyone who wants them. People just seem to want the RAAL tweeter, and are willing to pay an extra $400 to get them. To clear up a couple of other misconceptions, the
HT2 TL is hardly an inefficient speaker. It's quite sensitive, and can easily be driven by an amp with a solid 60 watts of power. I've heard them play nicely with a 35 watt tube amp. More power might be better, but it's not a necessity.
They're just as sensitive as the SongTower, which is an extremely easy speaker to drive. Are the Salks and Philharmonics transmission lines? Yes. They are mass loaded transmission lines using precise mathematical models. They function far more effectively in harnassing the quarter wave than most older classic designs without mass loading. We've been down this road many times. At some point it becomes a matter of semantics, and what counts is performance.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
TLS GUY so you are saying that SALK, Philharmonic and Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers are NOT real TL designs? Only "Your" DIY are real:rolleyes:?
They are really nice and the carpenter that built them has skills. I can see you are proud of them( I would be too) with the SEAS drivers as you named them after your self(carter your last name)... Carter...your DIY work station is a Carter? Did you apply for patent? If I recall correctly Sony use to use SEAS drivers many years ago. I am not a retired Dr.(just retired on a fixed income) that can't afford the lovely room you had built so I have to purchase equipment that are more aimed at Hoffman's Iron Law and purchase more efficent speakers (Klipsch Heritage) that you posted Bore a Hole in your head:mad:.(duh tone controls ).you Hate AVR and slam them from time to time but a AVR is all I can afford as it works great for my needs and super small den for Ht room. I have seen these pic's before and posted on your link how nice your HT room looks. But you have on several different posts gone out of you way to poke at me and my equipment.My only good piece of equipment was my Revox. Then the Dear Louis post.... I turned the other cheek on that one too. But the Klipsch comment,from last month, I did respond on and you never responded back...Please stop and think before you post as it seems like if we don't own what you own we have junk.
A new member a few weeks ago posted a thread about his vintage Warfdale speakers and you posted a paragraph about all the different companies that owned Warfdale form day one and posted to this new member sorry you purchased JUNK. Did it occur to you that you just slapped his face???
You did a good job of running him off, he had 2 posts and has not posted after that..I posted after thatif he liked the way they sound they are Not junk. I have read some of your posts over the years and usually you are polite and have been a accurate source of information. But most of the members here can not afford the major amount of money you spend on your equipment and find some of your remarks a bit "KURT" You tried to turn My thread about Acoustic Zen speakers to look at MY Carter speakers. My guess is you are a nice Guy but you do not realize just how some of posts hurt other members feelings as we too like what we own.You have slaped all the SALK speaker owners too now. That being said. ( I feel better now) if you have any data on Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers please post up.
Re read what he posted - he did not trash Salk or Klipsch speakers, he merely stated that the Klipsch are horn loaded and that he does not consider the Salks to be TLs.

Klipsch was a proponent of horn loading. Horn loading is totally different from TL loading. It is as different as a brass horn from an organ pipe.

I do not regard the Salk speakers as TLs. They are coupled cavity reflex speakers, and have two tuning peaks of impedance.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
People just seem to want the RAAL tweeter...
I guess people like to pay the $400 bargain to have the "same" RAAL tweeter as the $16,000 Soundscape 12. :D

And I'm glad my Phil3 have real genuine transmission line. :eek: :D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I guess people like to pay the $400 bargain to have the "same" RAAL tweeter as the $16,000 Soundscape 12. :D

And I'm glad my Phil3 have real genuine transmission line. :eek: i:D
Not that it matters in that particular design, but i don't think it's even the same raal as the $3,300 supercharged songtower
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not that it matters in that particular design, but i don't think it's even the same raal as the $3,300 supercharged songtower
Or the Ascend Sierra.....

I originally said "similar", but it doesn't quite have the same effect as "the same" - thus the quotes around the word "same".
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
AcuDefTechGuy;88867 electronics just don't lie. If an AVR measure like a pre-pro and amp said:
I know. I am 62 and have owned these Cornwalls from day one and had tubes, seperates etc on them...... as you know older Klipsch like mine just don't need more then 50 wps of clean power to hit 100db in 10x14 den. I was looking at a another tube amp or Emotive 200X5 for my HT system. But my wimpy AVR amps play my HT speakers Great........ small room made a Huge difference. I have a lot of speakers in a small space with low ceiling. Now back to Acoustic Zen speakers....... have you ever listened to a pair??? I just found out about them and wanted to learn more about them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Now back to Acoustic Zen speakers....... have you ever listened to a pair??? I just found out about them and wanted to learn more about them.
Unfortunately I have never listened to them. They look cool.
 
LAB3

LAB3

Senior Audioholic
Re read what he posted - he did not trash Salk or Klipsch speakers, he merely stated that the Klipsch are horn loaded and that he does not consider the Salks to be TLs.
He said they were NOT a real TL and most like these are a bad design.......... the Klipsch comments were from different posts he made and like I did not know the bass waves were bent different, I can read a blue print.... he knows what I meant. I should have PM him what I posted about him. :eek:..... now back to my Acoustic Zen thread. Have you listened to them????
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
I cannot be the only one that's heard the Acoustic Zen speakers! A couple friends of mine (also forum monkeys - KShep and Stew) were with me and liked them very much; placed them in their top 5 of the show if I recall.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Like sealed enclosures, they roll of 12 db per octave, however the F3 point is much lower than for the same drivers in sealed alignment.
I'll address this in a moment.

This is the impedance curve and phase angles of the mid lines in these speakers.
You re-posted the bass-lines PDF. This really threw me off in trying to model this. I think you meant to post this:

http://www.drmarksays.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Mains_midlines1.pdf

Now looking at this, I made an effort to model this. The impedance I modelled is double the impedance of your speakers, since I only modelled the one driver rather than two, in a line with half the volume. But would you say this is effectively the same(I used the T/S Parameters measured by Zaph Audio)?



I stuffed it with a density of .45 cu lb/(ft^3). What I get is not a speaker that rolls off at 12db/octave, although it's certainly a shallow rolloff, it does not track the 12db/octave infinite baffle response (dotted blue line):



F3 = ~52hz
F10 = ~30hz
F20 = ~18hz

Compared to a sealed speaker with the same internal volume:



F3 = ~90hz
F10 = ~33hz
F20 = ~16hz

So at some point, the sealed becomes more efficient than the transmission line. You might not care about it because in this case it's in the infrasonic range, but I think that shows that the TL can not have the same rolloff as the Sealed.

ML-TL (modelled) frequency response:



Driver excursion:



Compared to a sealed speaker:



ML-TL modelled excursion:



....I think people can draw their own conclusions about what is "best".... my only point is that TLs are a middle ground between ported and sealed. They're not "sealed plus an octave of bass extension".

Done well TLs deliver powerful uncolored powerful bass.
As do well done sealed or well done ML-TL, but all three are limited by their omni radiation pattern in real rooms. Your room definitely gives you nice results WRT standing waves, but is not representative of every room. In one sense, the different placement of the terminus and the drivers might load the vertical mode a bit differently, but the width / depth modes of the room are still at the mercy of... the room.
 
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