A/V Business Related Questions....

[InTheIndustry]

Thank you For Reading…..

I have been a member here for several years and after a lot of careful thought, would like to offer this thread for any members to post and ask questions they may have about the Consumer Electronic Business.

I've seen a ton of misconceptions in a great many threads over the years that I think set both consumers and dealers/installers/integrators back when shopping for their electronics. There seems to be a lot of animosity towards dealers and manufacturers that stems directly from this lack of understanding and the recent “Audiovox Buys Klipsch” thread once again brought this to the forefront for me.

I would like to offer some help through this thread where people can feel free to ask questions related to the A/V business. I think that many readers and participants on here will find a thread such as this very informative and helpful.

What qualifies me to answer these questions? Here’s a quick BIO. Please feel free to take a moment to read it.
View attachment BIO.doc

WHY WOULD I DO THIS?

Why would I offer to answer potentially sensitive questions about my industry? Because I joined AH a few months before starting my company in 2006 to learn from consumers and in return try to offer some sort of legitimate prospective help from someone who’s been in the industry, hence the name. I see a lot of people out there with a great misunderstanding and misinterpretation on how money is made, what dealer and manufacturer’s margins really are, how much it actually might cost to display products, why dealers do or do not display things very well, why dealers carry or seem to push certain brands, and on and on covering a great many different business related subjects. This builds a lot of animosity towards professionals in my industry and ultimately nobody wins.

I am NOT trying to sell you guys anything or market my business and you will NOT see my company mentioned by name or contact information for me anywhere in my posts or profile. This is intentional. Not to be coy, but to protect the integrity of my posts & threads. I have a very few times sold a handful of things on the classifieds forum and to members that PM me asking about certain brands. I’ve even traveled a bit to go do larger projects for forum members over the years (three times). I have also a handful of times over the years PM’d or been PM’d by people who had some in depth or sensitive questions that were impossible to answer properly through a forum post. Other than that, I have no other interest than to further anyone’s knowledge on here who’s interested to learn and have open conversation.

IMPORTANT RULES:
One thing that I will try to avoid is leaking sensitive information about any specific company. For example: I will NOT answer questions like, “How much does model XYZ cost a dealer?” However, I will gladly provide general margin perspective on what different types of products cost dealers and how that relates to pricing models, why discounts can be had, etc. etc. I hope that this all leads to a better, more educated shopping experience for all who read.

Now that that’s out of the way….

Please feel free to throw out questions in as much depth and detail or as simple as you would like. I will try my best to answer them in a timely fashion. Some of your questions I might have to answer in a general concept/idea, but I will try to be as thorough as possible. If I do not have an immediate answer based on 1st hand knowledge or something needs clarified I will make a solid effort to do the appropriate due diligence to get an accurate answer.

Thank you for reading and participating!

 

[KEW]

I'll start!

On the topic of Dealer Education:
1) Are there requirements?
2) Are there expectations?
3) Are there education incentives or opportunities offered by Audio Companies?

 

[InTheIndustry]

I'll start!

On the topic of Dealer Education:
1) Are there requirements?
2) Are there expectations?
3) Are there education incentives or opportunities offered by Audio Companies?

Great questions that people often times over look! The answer is kind of multi dimensional so I’ll try to shed some light from different angles. WARNING: THIS ANSWER WILL BE LONG!

I will say that 1st and foremost that there is NO substitute for the education of experience. However, that doesn’t always equal expertise.

QUICK ANSWER

For independent dealers… NO, there is no official like, governing body of the consumer electronics industry overseeing the quality or fairness of work and estimates through an education or training requirement.

CEDIA
Sure, there are organizations like CEDIA (by far the biggest) out there that offer classes, but I’m not sure what value they really add at this point. They can be expensive, especially for startup guys, and with technology changing so so quickly and without any set standard ways electronics interact with each other there are very few ABSOLUTES that an org like CEDIA can provide past a certain point. Some of the WORST installations I’ve had to fix were from companies claiming that every tech from them was CEDIA certified. There’s no quality guarantee to any of it.

On top of that, it is rare, and I mean needle-in-a-hay-stack rare that anyone asks for an education or qualifications back ground. Even on large projects going into the $100,000s. Usually, though, they have seen your work or have been referred, so there’s an expectation of familiarity there…. But you’d be surprised at how often that doesn’t even matter.

I paid a healthy sum of money (more than what some people make in a month) to become THX Level II certified around when I first got started. Never has that been a focal or selling point for a client. Most people have no idea what it is, nor do they care, so I stopped paying the expensive dues to be listed on their website. And, believe me, they see the words THX far more often then they do the term “CEDIA”. So, from a purely business perspective, if someone is confident that they know what they are doing, why would they worry about the expense of training or education they don’t perceive themselves to need and their clients don’t care about? This is not me defending a dealer’s lack of education (self taught or professional), but just an explanation as to why it doesn’t happen for some.

Also, a lot of manufacturers are the ones offering education seminars at conventions like CEDIA. What you’ll find is that what one manufacturer does one way, another does another way. So there is no real standard because products can be ASTRONOMICALLY different not just from year to year, but manufacturer to manufacturer and even model to model. It’s impossible to actually have a well rounded understanding of all of these different pieces of equipment and ways to do things unless you’re spending money every year/model change to bring in new tech and work with it. No class is going to be able to educate dealers THAT quickly. I promise you that the minute you come out of a class demonstrating dispersion patterns of center channels and how far apart to set mains, surrounds, etc., there will be a manufacturer having a class showing their latest and greatest and explaining why what you learned was wrong because their product XYZ does the opposite. The rules are ever evolving.

This is what discourages a lot of dealers from doing anything different or carrying different brands. Because they get comfortable doing things a certain way or with certain sales reps and pitching certain product and they sit on that.

DISTRIBUTORS
National distributors like ADI and AVAD offer a lot of training classes for dealers to go to as do some regional companies. These are taught by company trainers or sales reps. Some of these are really good classes. And sometime the reps and trainers have so limited hands on experience that they are behind the curve by a country mile. Another problem with this is that it takes quite a bit of time out of your work day to go take a class. Time = money if you’re good at your job. Also, distributors aren’t really on the cutting edge, either and are kind of part of the problem as to why people in the industry are “dealers” of some brands.

Here’s why….

A national distributor, like ADI (95 locations if remember correctly), was basically a security systems distributor before the big housing boom. Well, they wanted, of course, to get into selling audio video systems to security companies and electricians who were already clients and working in these new homes being built. How do they get to do this? EASY! They call up manufacturers and spend a lot of money. JVC Projectors, for example, are sold almost exclusively through distribution. Meaning: Anyone with an account at a carrying distributor can buy and sell them at a dealer cost regardless if they’ve ever installed a projector in their lives. ADI also carries Denon, Boston, Proficient (a brand of entry level Speakercraft gear conjured up by Speakercraft to sell through distributors without repercussion from unknowing dealers). This is why a lot of installations are a wreck…. Because of products being sold through distribution to business that have absolutely ZERO clue as to what they are doing… they’re just trying to make more money. This lack of education or knowledge leads to a lot of customer service problems for manufacturers…. Especially small ones, which is a part of the reason a lot of things aren’t allowed to be sold online (which is a whole separate issue onto itself).

There are some shady backroom deals going on at distributors from some manufacturers. Changing of model numbers, changing of component quality, etc. etc. so that brands don’t get in trouble with their brick and mortar dealers. This sometimes happens at big box shops too.

Sometimes, though, brands will sell through the distribution channel and have actual requirements, back ground checks, and territorial rules that have to be met before a company can purchase their product. Marantz was like this. I was a direct Marantz dealer but sometimes bought through distribution if I was in a hurry to get product. Even though Marantz knew my company, I had to still do paperwork on my territory through distributor.

MANUFACTURERS
The best education, I think, comes from the manufacturers themselves either in the form of very long conversations with tech support, or actual cut-sheets on products explaining why they do things and the proper applications for their products. And, of course, hands on. Manufacturers RARELY send samples to work with, so it's up to dealers to experiment with their own money. Many are not willing or able to do so.

Totem speakers, for example, does a good job of explaining what exactly each speaker is designed to do and for whom. Their training docs have a LOT of marketing fluff to them, so I won't post it, but there is good information in there for dealers who want to learn a bit about Totem speakers. They have no problem saying “Model ABC is for client Y with room Q who listens to G and models CBA is for client Z with room X who listens to P”, although these guidlines aren’t set in stone. Up until recently, Runco required that their dealers go out to CA and take training classes to better understand projector technology. I think that was admirable. There are many more, but I just wanted to give some examples.

Automation companies are pretty big sticklers on classes and continuous training to be allowed to sell their product. So are some of the larger remote control manufacturers. Other than that, very little, if any, education is really required for anything.

BIG BOX SHOPS
You’ll be shocked to know that the big box shops like Best Buy and Circuit City really spend a TON of money and time educating employees. The problem with companies like that are exponential as to why their employees seem clueless. It is definitely NOT because big box shops don’t care or try. I know that CC spent millions and millions of dollars designing a comprehensive, and very technical PC based training system. The system had goals and strict metrics for people to be able to keep their jobs, managers and sales people alike. The company took training seriously…. But to no real benefit.

INCENTIVES
As far as incentives are concerned, some companies used to offer discounts to dealers who would be CEDIA certified, or belonged to other organizations. It has been a few years since anyone has brought that sort of thing up. There are companies that require a show room and/or a certain amount of their product on display for someone to become a dealer. Some offer “displaying dealer” programs that offer price breaks or marketing material. Magnepan, for example, requires a dedicated 2 channel room and are sticklers for not having a dealer within quite a wide range around you before they will let you carry their line. Companies with guidlines like this are few and far between.

- I hope this answers a lot of what you were asking about. If not, let me know where I can elaborate more and I will. There’s only so much I can cover at once.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I'll start!

On the topic of Dealer Education:
1) Are there requirements?
2) Are there expectations?
3) Are there education incentives or opportunities offered by Audio Companies?

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this as well as I like to lend my 2.5 cents when I have my own insight after a decade in this business...

Are there requirements?
Certain manufacturers have different requirements for sure. Crestron and AMX, for example, both require dealer education, and hold back certain products to dealers who do not have a certain amount of education. I know Universal Remote Control CONSTANTLY tries to get dealers trained with in-house and online training given constantly. Other manufacturers, not so much, and it falls to the dealers to send people out for training.

Many manufacturers don't offer any training at all. These tend to be the larger manufacturers. So, you can actually expect your Sony, Sharp, Panasonic, etc. not to deliver or offer, much in the way of training.

Denon, Yamaha, and Pioneer I know offer product specific training, but I have also seen 'trainings' end up being more like 'sales pitches'. Which leaves me very frustrated.

Still, certain VERY high end product does offer training, and the industry has several key organizations which offer general, if not specific, training in many areas.

These include CEDIA, INFOCOMM, NAB, and others. Cedia offers classes throughout the country and at the Cedia Expo as does Infocomm. I'm not as familiar with what NAB offers, but I would believe to be similar.

2. Are there expectations?

For training? Not typically, but education about the products that are even available is a significant bit of work with A/V. Keep in mind that A/V design now often includes networking, video over ethernet, audio over ethernet, and a product line that often changes annually from EVERY manufacturer with weekly or even daily changes often being the norm. So, a good manufacturer, that a dealer has a direct relationship with, often tries to come by the office once or twice a year to review new product with sales and staff. While this is often a sales meeting, it is still very informative about what is coming down the road.

Still, product specific training doesn't happen often... But, for receivers most dealers can get it. For speakers? I've not actually heard of a training for these products, though I've had a few audio companies come in and talk about proper placement and a phone call often can help get some suggestions for specific models when dealers do have them.

3. Are there education incentives or opportunities offered by Audio Companies?

Education incentives? For a limited few, education is a requirement to be a dealer, but more often than not, incentives are sales based. The more you sell, the more of a discount the buyers are given. Promise to ONLY work with one company instead of three companies, and an incentive is likely. Thus, why some stores only carry very specific brands. Yet, in the world of education, the incentives tend to be that you can sell more, or compete better if you can knowledgably talk about a product. For the Best Buy crowd, that sales advice is often incorrect, but people don't even know it. For the custom installer, knowledge is key as it builds relationships and encourages word of mouth. So, a sharp sales and engineering team goes a LONG way to helping sales growth.

As I said, for a few manufacturers, having proper training does open some doors. Certified training may allow direct support hotlines to better technical support. Or may allow for a discount on in-house purchases for demos or training. It may open up a few specific pieces of high-end gear which otherwise are not available to those companies.

Still, I am appalled at the number of pieces of gear that I have PERSONALLY been asked to setup, design into systems, and program without one BIT of training and a clue as to what the product really even does. I've been sent to Alaska to install two products which cost about $25,000 and I had never seen or used them before in my life until I showed up on site.

While that's not really encouraging to know, it is the experience of someone who HAS had training in many areas of A/V which helps a company send the right people out who can handle exactly those types of situations.

For example - once you know the concept of how creative frame interpolation works, and you know about a dozen manufacturers do it, and crank it up all the way, then it doesn't matter WHO makes the product, to know you just look in the manual, or through the menus, find the settings and turn it down or off so that the image looks more natural.

If you are sharp, you may even check forums to see what experience others have had with products to see what settings are likely best.

How often do we see new members here who start off by saying "I just bought... XXXXX and was wondering how to set it up or was any good?"

How many more never even get that far before and after a purchase is made?

So, those of us who care and work in this industry as our life's choice, also typically DO get education from all the resources which are available. This includes the manufacturer training as available, organization training (Infocomm/Cedia/etc.) and magazines, online resources, etc.

More than once, I have come up with solutions which the Internet and forums have produced and provided that were not at all available from manufacturers or from traditional training. It is not the education that is made available, but the willingness to learn which is key.

 

[highfigh]

IMPORTANT RULES:
One thing that I will try to avoid is leaking sensitive information about any specific company. For example: I will NOT answer questions like, “How much does model XYZ cost a dealer?” However, I will gladly provide general margin perspective on what different types of products cost dealers and how that relates to pricing models, why discounts can be had, etc. etc. I hope that this all leads to a better, more educated shopping experience for all who read.

Now that that’s out of the way….

Please feel free to throw out questions in as much depth and detail or as simple as you would like. I will try my best to answer them in a timely fashion. Some of your questions I might have to answer in a general concept/idea, but I will try to be as thorough as possible. If I do not have an immediate answer based on 1st hand knowledge or something needs clarified I will make a solid effort to do the appropriate due diligence to get an accurate answer.

Thank you for reading and participating!

I'm not sure that revealing profit margins helps anyone in the business. If anything, it will erode our profits more because it will foster an expectation that all dealers can, and should, discount the price to rock-bottom levels. Online selling by companies that started as distributors and started using their deeper discount to allow selling at or below normal dealer cost has caused enough problems, IMO.

If someone isn't in the business in a literal sense, they shouldn't expect to pay dealer cost for ANYTHING.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I'm not sure that revealing profit margins helps anyone in the business. If anything, it will erode our profits more because it will foster an expectation that all dealers can, and should, discount the price to rock-bottom levels. Online selling by companies that started as distributors and started using their deeper discount to allow selling at or below normal dealer cost has caused enough problems, IMO.

If someone isn't in the business in a literal sense, they shouldn't expect to pay dealer cost for ANYTHING.

Often times people do not understand the costs associated with owning and opperating a business, particularly one with the substantial overhead that comes with a showroom or well trained & highly skilled installers, which is what specific costs I'm willing to relate to.

For example, in another thread someone speculated on Bose margins being high or paying higher commissions and this is why dealers carry or sell it. This is not true as Bose costs, proportionatley, around what most any other speaker does.

This is more along the lines as to what I was referring to. Is this objectionable? I do not want to hurt your or BMXTRIX businesses and will not be posting information that would be considered confidential.

 

[digicidal]

If someone isn't in the business in a literal sense, they shouldn't expect to pay dealer cost for ANYTHING.

I agree with this statement completely - however, I would like to add a slight retort (as an end-user/consumer):

If someone isn't in the business in a literal sense - they SHOULD expect to have a much higher level of support and service that goes along with that extra cost (over dealer wholesale). One thing that I've been constantly irritated by over the years is the near-geometric increase in 'ancillary costs' associated with consumer electronics... Now in most cases I don't really mind - I grab the Internet, product manuals and a cup of coffee and get to work. For me that's fun, and a break from the side of CE that I deal with (computers).

However, even with a self-starter like myself it's incredibly irritating to have to pay prices that are significantly above dealer cost - from a dealer that pretty much says "if I have to spend more that 15 minutes selling you $2000 worth of gear... then you're not worth my time". Thankfully in this new economy most of those dealers will be homeless soon - leaving more marketshare for dealers that are happy to work with the customer to garner lifelong repeat business.

My question would be more one of requesting your opinion rather than specifics. I realize that a large part of any consumer-sales business is marketing (at least once grown past the 'word-of-mouth' stage), but how big of a difference is it for distributors (in dealing with OEMs)? Do they give you much less skewed product descriptions and specifications? And are you more likely to look for alternatives if they do not (I would hope so).

It seems to me that the uninformed consumer, who is unwilling or unable to "dig deeper" via the Internet or discussions with experienced dealers - are left with only TV/Print ad copy which in at least 80%-90% is 3 paragraphs of bold-faced lies. Not that I'm saying this is different than with any other product or service category - however, I'm curious if the manufacturers have two separate spec sheets. So they can still tell the consumer "stunning clarity" and tell the distributors "treble is boosted by 6db past 8kHz" or something like that.

 

[jostenmeat]

As my opinion, I don't think that the dealers who post here are typical CI people. I've said that before here too. Perhaps, I could say the same thing for the consumers here. The type that has posted hundreds of times, or perhaps thousands of times, in AV forums cares more than the normal person.

I've met and talked with at least 5 CI people (all owners/cowners, three different businesses) at a personal level, over beers, etc. If you include some of their employees, then I've lost count how many I've met. Quite honestly, it is only a job to them. They don't really give a crap, IMO. They upsell, and one in particular does a poor job, IMO, in terms of setup. Sure, it will look* good, and your remote will do anything you darn want (and it better, for that much money), but I* have to teach him the dumbest things, and quite honestly, he often simply doesn't care. I'm talking about a lot of work for millionaires, Stewart popup screens outdoors, surveillance, etc. I finally got him to understand what cascading xovers are, and why that's so bad for audio. I recently chided him for not even putting up conduit when the walls were torn down for some big azz job. He doesn't care.

I believe I've failed to convince him to spend under $100 for mic stand/boom/adapter so that he can run Audyssey better (he sells a lot of Marantz and Denon). The fact is, he doesn't even care to run it, and you can bet the consumer doesn't either.

I also asked him why he wouldn't learn more about video calibration, as that could make some nice bonus money, with all of those JVC and Sim2 projectors he sells. He doesn't care and has no interest.

He recently invited me to a big job, well over an hour drive away, so that I could take a look at a Denon 4311. He basically wanted me to read the manual, play with the menu, teach him, and for free. Whatever! I think he was trying to sell it as a favor in that I get to play with one, or something. Well, I'm sure he won't read the manual, or figure it out. Plug n play I bet.

It seems that most work that I hear about is simply whole house audio, some automation, bit of surveillance here and there. Audio performance and video performance, hmm. So what, there are a bunch of TVs everywhere.

On a different note, I remember talking to double digit dealers when auditioning speakers years ago. Double digit. It's sad to say, but I think I know more than all of them, and the sadder part is that I don't really know *all that* much.

So, I think if my experiences mirrors at all the experiences of other members here, you professionals might better understand a lot of our paranoia with some of the folks in your industry (I did not* read the Klipsch thread). OTOH, if BMX or highfigh (who both have a better grasp of physics, at least in certain areas, than many others, and as BMX put it, a higher level of interest in this field) or other certain pros, if they were local, that I had the money, and I actually needed the help, I would hire them in a heartbeat.


Well, I'd like to make a toast to my fellow obsessed hobbyist, because it is THEY I learn the most from. I'm going to put BMX and highfigh in the hobbyist group too. (They could be in that overlapping area of the Venn diagram, hehe.) I mean, highfigh makes his own speakers, c'mon! I could search for years here in my area and not find a single CI guy who does that.

 

[highfigh]

If it's OK, I'll add my impressions of some of the topics.

Training-

Manufacturer-based-

It's sometimes required, in order for a dealer to sell certain products, or segments of their product line, like URC. If anyone wants to sell the network models, like the MX-5000, PSX-2 and others, they have to take the on-site or web training classes and a distributor won't sell to non-trained dealers. Higher-tech products need trained people selling and installing them because a manufacturers' reputation can go away quickly if an installer is completely clueless and something either doesn't work, or damages other equipment. Equipment sold as doing and having certain features and abilities when it doesn't, will make the dealer AND the manufacturer look bad.

Distributor based-

If, as mentioned before, the trainers have hands-on experience and good product knowledge, it can be very helpful but if they can't answer simple questions about the product, it's a waste of time. I have had people at ADI tell me "It might be on their web site" and I asked simple questions. Product knowledge isn't their strong point. FOr that matter, competitive pricing isn't, either. I did a system in '07 and wanted a Denon receiver- the other local distributor, who I was extremely unhappy with at the time, gave their price and ADI wanted $93 more. Aside from being a few miles closer, ADI had no reason for asking that price and when I told them the cost from the other, they dropped it to a difference of $25, which I paid (PO'd at the other place).

Industry-based-

This can, and should, be the most comprehensive training available to us. However, my experience since 1978, when I got into the business, has shown otherwise. Often, it's more like a pep rally or sales seminar. That fine, if I'm in sales and need technical training but if I'm in the technical end and need sales training, it's not geared for technical people.

When I was at CEDIA for training, the scheduling manager where I worked, who had no idea what I knew, decided that I should go to seminars other than what I had requested.

'Audio Setup & Calibration', which is something I had done for years, had a description that looked like it would be useful for someone in the field, to help a system to sound good without needing $100K in test equipment. Unfortunately, the guy spent more time telling us how cool he and his company were, how they did mostly 6-digit systems and all kinds of bad info like, "all speaker cables should be the same length, so there are no audible delays from speaker to speaker. How he proposed to reconcile this when people actually move in a room, I don't know. He also didn't like when someone asked if this is necessary when so many receivers and pre-amps have time-based correction.

'Video Setup & Calibration-'

This one I wanted to see. I have always been more into audio than video, so I though it would be useful and a way to learn the best ways to set up a display on-site, without needing to do it at the shop. WRONG! The guy had a quiet, Southern Indiana accent and when the seminar began, he turned off most of the lights. It was 8AM and fairly warm and the combination doesn't mix well, if the goal is to stay awake. At no time, did he cut to the chase and tell us what I wanted to know. I don't need an oscilloscope to know that I don't have a composite waveform. If I don't see it after subbing cables and trying a different input or display, it's not there. No discussion of HDMI, almost none for component video and almost no useful in-the-field information. The way people were literally sliding off of their chairs, it looked like the Dali painting of the clocks melting over the edges of different objects.

Bill, from Jensen Transformers, was very informative, just as he had been when I went to his seminar at CES in the early '80s. Unfortunately, the other two guys from our company who were there were lost. One of them had a mantra- "They sell the dream, I make it happen". Couldn't calculate a simple speaker load if someone held a gun to his head. Looked "rode hard and put away wet" after taking the whole 3 hours for the CEDIA I test. It wasn't that hard, but the prep session was helpful for me.

Some of the better training I have had-

The acoustics class I took at UW-Milwaukee, Denon, Pioneer LaserDisc (yeah, it was about 1980), some of the car stereo company sessions (Alpine, MTX, the company that became Phoenix Gold), Furman, Dave Navone, a couple of lighting sessions, MATC IT Networking class in '06 and Motorola cell-phone certification. I have a stack of certificates from manufacturers and not a single customer has EVER asked about my training. If I wear a CEDIA arm patch or hat, it will only make people ask "What is that?", so I don't.

When I commented that 10AWG power cable didn't fit the terminals on their amps, an ADS rep told me that the terminals were made to accept NASA-spec cable. WTF? How is that a sensible thing to do?

IMO, sales trainers shouldn't conduct technical training unless they have actual experience in that area. Also, URC sends far too much time showing how to change the look of the buttons on their remotes- it would be much better if they did hands-on training for the various models of remotes, with the requirement that certain macros and configurations be programmed.

 

[highfigh]

Often times people do not understand the costs associated with owning and opperating a business, particularly one with the substantial overhead that comes with a showroom or well trained & highly skilled installers, which is what specific costs I'm willing to relate to.

For example, in another thread someone speculated on Bose margins being high or paying higher commissions and this is why dealers carry or sell it. This is not true as Bose costs, proportionatley, around what most any other speaker does.

This is more along the lines as to what I was referring to. Is this objectionable? I do not want to hurt your or BMXTRIX businesses and will not be posting information that would be considered confidential.

One thing about owning and operating a business- many people don't care how much it costs, in terms of time and money. They just don't want anyone to make money from their sale. I recently had a lawyer, who's well up the food chain at a very large legal firm, tell me that he hoped I would do the work for $3500-$4000 when I quoted $3300 just for the equipment and 20 hours for labor. That's ballsy! His firm charges about $300/hour and he wants that kind of price? I wonder if he would discount their rates by 90% if I wanted them to represent me.

One publication that was a royal PITA in the late '70s and into the early '90s is Consumer Reports. They may be OK with reviews of appliances, cars and other things, but they were clueless when it came to electronics. They were in love with Harmon-Kardon, specifically the 330A/B/C receiver. They blew up all the time, yet people wanted them. Sansui R-series receivers? You bet! Total crap. That series killed Sansui because they biased the outputs too hot and if it was repaired with new emitter resistors, the choice was to blow the am or the speakers. There really was no middle ground.

Honestly, I don't worry about Bose. I don't remember the last time anyone asked me about them and I haven't had to bid against them at all. The lawyer has a passive Acoustimass system in the family room and for bass and voices, they're OK. The bass isn't particularly extended but it's OK since the speakers are really close. His wife mentioned that it sounded muffled and I told her that if she wants it to be more clear and crisp, she can't put books and photos in front of the little cube speakers.

As far as your first paragraph in this post, I would love for people to understand what you listed. I would also like for more people to understand that taking someone's time to set up and demo equipment and then, buying it online or through someone else doesn't give them the right to ask more questions after the sale or complain when they don't like the product.

 

[highfigh]

I'll comment on each part, separately.

"If someone isn't in the business in a literal sense - they SHOULD expect to have a much higher level of support and service that goes along with that extra cost (over dealer wholesale). One thing that I've been constantly irritated by over the years is the near-geometric increase in 'ancillary costs' associated with consumer electronics... Now in most cases I don't really mind - I grab the Internet, product manuals and a cup of coffee and get to work. For me that's fun, and a break from the side of CE that I deal with (computers)."

What "ancillary costs"?

"However, even with a self-starter like myself it's incredibly irritating to have to pay prices that are significantly above dealer cost - from a dealer that pretty much says "if I have to spend more that 15 minutes selling you $2000 worth of gear... then you're not worth my time". Thankfully in this new economy most of those dealers will be homeless soon - leaving more marketshare for dealers that are happy to work with the customer to garner lifelong repeat business."

If a dealer has that attitude, I'm not sure they deserve to stay in business. "Caveat emptor" and all that but that's just a bad attitude. I worked for someone who was big on making the sale the first time and he had no problem arguing about why something wasn't right for that customer at a later date. I, and two of the other sales guys didn't see it that way and we took the time to educate people when they asked questions. We had a lot of teen-aged kids who were becoming interested in this kind of gear and when they got gifts of money (most didn't need to get a job because their parents were looooaaaaadddded) but we didn't look at them as walking dollar signs. This was in about 1980 and, oddly enough, some of them still shop there. I see several of them and many still have some of the pieces they bought from me at that store. Two have been in the audio business, too.

"My question would be more one of requesting your opinion rather than specifics. I realize that a large part of any consumer-sales business is marketing (at least once grown past the 'word-of-mouth' stage), but how big of a difference is it for distributors (in dealing with OEMs)? Do they give you much less skewed product descriptions and specifications? And are you more likely to look for alternatives if they do not (I would hope so)."

My opinions are based on these examples but if you want me to leave them out, I will. In some cases, it takes away the context, though. I have gone back to the distributor who I was PO'd at. Not because they're the only place selling what I want but because they hired some new people and one actually called me to find out why I hadn't bought anything in two years. I was astounded and told him why. That call and him saying that things had changed brought me back but if it had been same-ol', same-ol', I would have stayed gone. They hired someone who has sold, installed and serviced audio/video equipment. Also, she had worked with her uncle, who is an electrician, since she was about 12 years old. She's Denon CI certified and knows the product, the market and what dealers want/need.

Unlike ADI and the rest at her company, she knows the answers to the questions and is willing to go the extra mile.

"It seems to me that the uninformed consumer, who is unwilling or unable to "dig deeper" via the Internet or discussions with experienced dealers - are left with only TV/Print ad copy which in at least 80%-90% is 3 paragraphs of bold-faced lies. Not that I'm saying this is different than with any other product or service category - however, I'm curious if the manufacturers have two separate spec sheets. So they can still tell the consumer "stunning clarity" and tell the distributors "treble is boosted by 6db past 8kHz" or something like that."

Manufacturers have one web site, although they may have a dealer area for training, technical info, recalls, promotions, etc. The descriptions are the same for us and that's part of what I was referring to in the GMS speaker thread when I commented on the manufacturers "writing flowery text". BS is BS, regardless of who're on the receiving end and in any case, it wastes a lot of time when people need to look for the facts.

Unfortunately, most of the people taking orders at distributors are just that- 'order takers', and nothing more. They spout company boiler-plate info about "we're here to build relationships, not just sell product" and in more than 30 years, I'm really tired of hearing and reading this when they charge 15%-25% more than someone else who really knows what they're talking about. My rep at Capitol Sales was an installer and knows that accurate info is what we need, not jargon.

From the Jensen Transformer site, Bringing Science to Sound - " No Hum, No Buzz, No Bull! ". Their stuff works.

 

[digicidal]

By "Ancillary Costs" I was largely referring to a practice that I've long seen in multiple industries (so I'm not singling out A/V distributors/integrators here). What I commonly see is something along these lines (at least here in Vegas... might be better elsewhere):

Full Home Automation System - $6500 parts & labor included (insert brand here) authorized installation. However in what amounts to a bait & switch, and at a constantly expanding rate - the actual invoice is $21K by the time you add in all the stuff they 'forgot' to include... like say wiring or isolation cans for the in-ceilings. In some cases, I've seen someone trying to push this kind of upsell in a case where I knew from my research that such 'accessories' were INCLUDED in the packaging from the OEM! In most cases, they don't directly state (but they definitely imply) that if ALL of these items are not purchased at the time of sale and from them directly - then they will not include any form of service because it will result in an "unsupportable installation". For something like a controller,amp,speakers I get this - for something like an equipment rack, cables, etc... horses#!t!

Now that's an extreme case - but it occurs everywhere. For example, every time I go into any bigbox store and buy, well.. anything - I wind up in a fight with the salesperson about why I'm not going to pay $120 for an HDMI cable and why it won't matter one bit that my HDMI cable cost me $6.

To me this can only mean one thing (but I may be wrong - hence the request for clarification): The store/dealer is instructing their salesforce to push these grossly overpriced items because they are marking them up 5000% because they can - while they could not (and stay in business at least) do the same thing with an AVR for example.

I'm probably jaded because I've been going to many different shops over the past few months, and although the whole US is having hard times... Las Vegas is totally in the toilet economically. I wish I'd spent more time getting to know many of the local dealers before the housing bubble - it was probably a totally different story.

 

[highfigh]

"As my opinion, I don't think that the dealers who post here are typical CI people. I've said that before here too. Perhaps, I could say the same thing for the consumers here. The type that has posted hundreds of times, or perhaps thousands of times, in AV forums cares more than the normal person."

Don't rule out those who may have a bit of OCD.

"I've met and talked with at least 5 CI people (all owners/cowners, three different businesses) at a personal level, over beers, etc. If you include some of their employees, then I've lost count how many I've met. Quite honestly, it is only a job to them. They don't really give a crap, IMO. They upsell, and one in particular does a poor job, IMO, in terms of setup. Sure, it will look* good, and your remote will do anything you darn want (and it better, for that much money), but I* have to teach him the dumbest things, and quite honestly, he often simply doesn't care. I'm talking about a lot of work for millionaires, Stewart popup screens outdoors, surveillance, etc. I finally got him to understand what cascading xovers are, and why that's so bad for audio. I recently chided him for not even putting up conduit when the walls were torn down for some big azz job. He doesn't care."

Not uncommon, at all. It doesn't take interest to be extremely successful in this business, it takes a lot of money, maybe a degree in business or management, being able to read people/trends and sometimes, luck. Owners often have no practical experience in the industry they're involved with, but they may know how to get things done. One of my customers is a part-owner of a commercial display company and he has no idea how to connect a stereo system or troubleshoot simple problems. He has, however, done very well in that industry.

"I believe I've failed to convince him to spend under $100 for mic stand/boom/adapter so that he can run Audyssey better (he sells a lot of Marantz and Denon). The fact is, he doesn't even care to run it, and you can bet the consumer doesn't either.

I also asked him why he wouldn't learn more about video calibration, as that could make some nice bonus money, with all of those JVC and Sim2 projectors he sells. He doesn't care and has no interest. "

That's his problem. Calibration can be an income source but if the company has nobody who understands what they're doing, it becomes a big problem because the results will only be good by coincidence. If it's not mentioned to the customer, they'll seldom ask on their own, unless they happened to read or hear about it somewhere else.

"He recently invited me to a big job, well over an hour drive away, so that I could take a look at a Denon 4311. He basically wanted me to read the manual, play with the menu, teach him, and for free. Whatever! I think he was trying to sell it as a favor in that I get to play with one, or something. Well, I'm sure he won't read the manual, or figure it out. Plug n play I bet."

Not plug N play. The inputs all need to be assigned, speaker configuration, modes, advanced config all need attention. If it's connected to a network, that needs to be updated, control method(s) need to be dealt with (IR, browser-based, Two-way or RS-232) and if he's not using the browser to save or upload configurations (assuming they sell many of the same system), he's wasting a lot of time.

"It seems that most work that I hear about is simply whole house audio, some automation, bit of surveillance here and there. Audio performance and video performance, hmm. So what, there are a bunch of TVs everywhere."

Get in, get out, make money. That's how the owners can build that new house, buy that new car/boat/vacation property/take several trips every year. There's a line in Citizen Kane- "Making mosey is easy, if all you want to do is make money".

"On a different note, I remember talking to double digit dealers when auditioning speakers years ago. Double digit. It's sad to say, but I think I know more than all of them, and the sadder part is that I don't really know *all that* much."

The best sales people I know don't know much about what they sell, they just know how to sell. Asking for the sale at the right time is key.

"So, I think if my experiences mirrors at all the experiences of other members here, you professionals might better understand a lot of our paranoia with some of the folks in your industry (I did not* read the Klipsch thread). OTOH, if BMX or highfigh (who both have a better grasp of physics, at least in certain areas, than many others, and as BMX put it, a higher level of interest in this field) or other certain pros, if they were local, that I had the money, and I actually needed the help, I would hire them in a heartbeat.

Well, I'd like to make a toast to my fellow obsessed hobbyist, because it is THEY I learn the most from. I'm going to put BMX and highfigh in the hobbyist group too. (They could be in that overlapping area of the Venn diagram, hehe.) I mean, highfigh makes his own speakers, c'mon! I could search for years here in my area and not find a single CI guy who does that."

Thanks, but I'm hardly an expert, compared with many here. My knowledge of crossover design is weak, at best.

Those of us in the business can't allow ourselves to think we've heard it all and know everything, either. Once that happens, it's time to get out.

 

[highfigh]

By "Ancillary Costs" I was largely referring to a practice that I've long seen in multiple industries (so I'm not singling out A/V distributors/integrators here). What I commonly see is something along these lines (at least here in Vegas... might be better elsewhere):

Full Home Automation System - $6500 parts & labor included (insert brand here) authorized installation. However in what amounts to a bait & switch, and at a constantly expanding rate - the actual invoice is $21K by the time you add in all the stuff they 'forgot' to include... like say wiring or isolation cans for the in-ceilings. In some cases, I've seen someone trying to push this kind of upsell in a case where I knew from my research that such 'accessories' were INCLUDED in the packaging from the OEM! In most cases, they don't directly state (but they definitely imply) that if ALL of these items are not purchased at the time of sale and from them directly - then they will not include any form of service because it will result in an "unsupportable installation". For something like a controller,amp,speakers I get this - for something like an equipment rack, cables, etc... horses#!t!

Now that's an extreme case - but it occurs everywhere. For example, every time I go into any bigbox store and buy, well.. anything - I wind up in a fight with the salesperson about why I'm not going to pay $120 for an HDMI cable and why it won't matter one bit that my HDMI cable cost me $6.

To me this can only mean one thing (but I may be wrong - hence the request for clarification): The store/dealer is instructing their salesforce to push these grossly overpriced items because they are marking them up 5000% because they can - while they could not (and stay in business at least) do the same thing with an AVR for example.

I'm probably jaded because I've been going to many different shops over the past few months, and although the whole US is having hard times... Las Vegas is totally in the toilet economically. I wish I'd spent more time getting to know many of the local dealers before the housing bubble - it was probably a totally different story.

If all of those things need to be added after the sale, whoever did the presentation and estimate/bid should be canned because they're completely inept. There are so many details in a large system that if someone comes up with a ballpark estimate in a short time, the potential customer should run away- it's not possible to be thorough unless they do ALL of the estimates/bids and they do everything on a cookie-cutter basis.

As far as up-selling, that's something big box managers get all gooey about. They see dollar signs and the sales force sees an uphill battle, if they have a clue about sites like this. Some people in sales have no qualms about selling the things with the biggest spiff and for them, it's just a paycheck. BB fired all of their best sale people years ago and offered to hire them back a the same rate as the others when they discontinued commissions. 'Commission' or 'incentive for selling certain products', it's really the same. Some places will fire people if they don't sell the extended warranty.

If they want to argue about the higher priced cables and warranty, I would leave. There's nothing that says a person has to buy from anyone. The old saying "Once someone leaves the store, there's no guarantee they'll ever set foot inside, again" is still true.

 

[digicidal]

As far as your first paragraph in this post, I would love for people to understand what you listed. I would also like for more people to understand that taking someone's time to set up and demo equipment and then, buying it online or through someone else doesn't give them the right to ask more questions after the sale or complain when they don't like the product.

I completely agree with this - however, there are people like myself that don't mind at all paying a little extra for the extra input and service. The problem is that when I'm confronted with 2 options: just hand a blank check to them and bend over - or do everything myself and deal with the hassles... then I think the choice is very clear. (And I'm not paying extra for the abuse).

I ran my own consulting firm for many years (anything IT-related, from simple sales to full-blown application development and operations management) - I did have to chuckle about the 'lawyers story' in your other post... they were my worst clients at work - but ironically not at home.

I had one guy that wrote me a check for $5K for 'the best PC money can buy for his 10 yr old son' and even paid me 4 hours of my top rate to play videogames with the kid. But when I offered to upgrade his entire office network (which was still running on coax 10b2 network) for $1200 - labor included - he got pissed and asked if he couldn't just put another hard drive in the 8 yr old server they had.

 

[highfigh]

I completely agree with this - however, there are people like myself that don't mind at all paying a little extra for the extra input and service. The problem is that when I'm confronted with 2 options: just hand a blank check to them and bend over - or do everything myself and deal with the hassles... then I think the choice is very clear. (And I'm not paying extra for the abuse).

I ran my own consulting firm for many years (anything IT-related, from simple sales to full-blown application development and operations management) - I did have to chuckle about the 'lawyers story' in your other post... they were my worst clients at work - but ironically not at home.

I had one guy that wrote me a check for $5K for 'the best PC money can buy for his 10 yr old son' and even paid me 4 hours of my top rate to play videogames with the kid. But when I offered to upgrade his entire office network (which was still running on coax 10b2 network) for $1200 - labor included - he got pissed and asked if he couldn't just put another hard drive in the 8 yr old server they had.

Speaking of that lawyer, guess who sent an e-mail this afternoon. They told me that they'd call when Time Warner was there- nothing. I got an e-mail on Christmas Day, which I answered, and told them to let me know if my tips helped- nothing.

Your guy sounds like he wanted to have peace at home but when he's able to use the expense to help his business, he wants to step over the dollars to pick up the nickels.

Then, I have other customers who just about force me to take a check. I actually had one say "Do you need a check? I feel like I owe you more". I told him that I didn't want to send an invoice every other week if I hadn't done much.

 

[digicidal]

There's an incredible.... and I mean like, almost all of it.... amount of missunderstanding and assumptions being made about the business side of consumer electronics.

I'm in the other thread as well, but with this statement posted in this thread perhaps you elaborate on this - in comparison to every other retail sales business - what is so different about consumer electronics?

How is it completely different than say - home improvement contracting, automotive customization & performance tuning, or retail computer sales and consulting... I say that simply because I've either worked with, done extensive business with, or run my own business for years as - all 3 of these.

Is there something fundamentally different about consumer electronics that makes the 'used car salesmen' crawl out of the woodwork? Or is there something fundamentally different about the distribution networks, dealer incentives, employee overhead, certification & licensing, etc.? I guess a better way of putting this in a succinct manner: "what's so damned hard about customer service, complete product knowledge, and commitment to excellence?".

I'm just confused as how the general concensus of so many people - many of whom own and operate their own businesses with distribution agreements, franchise limitations, supply chains, etc... could be so completely mistaken about why it is that CE retail is so full of issues, while other retail areas are much more service-oriented and streamlined? I guarantee that if any customers walking into a jewelry store were approached in the way they are in a CE store... that place would have no customers in less than two months.

Now I'm not saying that the 'used car salesmen' are not present in home improvement, automotive performance shops, and IT solutions providers - there's plenty there too - but at least in my admittedly geographically challenged experience over the past few years... there's at least a fairly rapid thinning of the herd in most of those other areas. In CE and home automation & security - again at least around here - it seems like the good shops died out long ago and only the crap is left.

Please don't misconstrue this as a belief that YOU are inherently dishonest because you run a business in this industry - I'm merely stating my opinion and experience as both a business owner and as a consumer - in what I believed at least were similar areas.

(I originally was going to post in the other thread, but I felt it was better served here).

 

[digicidal]

I just thought of perhaps a good analogy that I feel isn't (here at least) but should be mirrored in CE:

My previous car was a Nissan 350Z - since the GTR was not yet available, at the time it was the most expensive car Nissan sold. When I went to purchase it the sales staff was rude, pushy, and seemed put off by the fact that I wasn't adding on all sorts of stuff and using their (horrible) in-house lending. So I walked out and went across the street and bought one used with only 5K miles on it. No matter how many ludicrously over-priced services I purchased from them - it was always a hassle - in fact, it took me over 2 years to get warranty service on a couple of things (to their credit, the did eventually capitulate - but I had to bring in the TSB's and escalate things to the regional rep first.). <--- THIS IS WHAT I SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

A year ago I traded it in on a Lexus IS350 - which is next to the cheapest thing Lexus sells, and since mine was used and I got an incredible deal on it - they didn't make much of anything on me (but they made plenty on the previous owner...LOL!). When I go in for an oil change there - it's like night and day. Someone get's me coffee, the service manager is in no hurry, does not try to make any upsells - but is extremely attentive in providing options and complete pricing of product to achieve the desired result. <--- THIS IS WHAT I FEEL I SHOULD SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

ME: I'm looking to reduce body-roll in cornering while maintaining a fairly standard ride-height.
SERVICE MGR: Well, let me see what we can do - what is your target budget?
ME: Right now, I could go up to about $4K if necessary - top end.
SERVICE MGR: I don't think you'll need nearly that much if you're willing to go aftermarket on a couple of things... If we add the F-Sport control arms and the chassis bracing - that will be about $1200 parts and labor - I think you'll have 70% of what you're looking for. If you're willing to so a little shopping around you can find some good coilovers from the following manufacturers for probably less than $1500 for the set. If you decided you'd like us to do the install, we can schedule it to coincide with the braces and you'll only need to pay for 2 hours labor on it. Or you can check with another installer to see if it's better. But I think you might find that the bracing alone with the factory suspension will be very, very good - and might keep you happy until you're ready to pull the trigger on an IS-F even!
ME: I LOVE YOU!

OK I made that last part up - but you can bet whatever it is that I want done - he's getting my business... and unless something drastic happens to me financially-speaking - that dealership is getting all of my business from here on out.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I'm in the other thread as well, but with this statement posted in this thread perhaps you elaborate on this - in comparison to every other retail sales business - what is so different about consumer electronics?

How is it completely different than say - home improvement contracting, automotive customization & performance tuning, or retail computer sales and consulting... I say that simply because I've either worked with, done extensive business with, or run my own business for years as - all 3 of these.

Is there something fundamentally different about consumer electronics that makes the 'used car salesmen' crawl out of the woodwork? Or is there something fundamentally different about the distribution networks, dealer incentives, employee overhead, certification & licensing, etc.? I guess a better way of putting this in a succinct manner: "what's so damned hard about customer service, complete product knowledge, and commitment to excellence?".

I'm just confused as how the general concensus of so many people - many of whom own and operate their own businesses with distribution agreements, franchise limitations, supply chains, etc... could be so completely mistaken about why it is that CE retail is so full of issues, while other retail areas are much more service-oriented and streamlined? I guarantee that if any customers walking into a jewelry store were approached in the way they are in a CE store... that place would have no customers in less than two months.

Now I'm not saying that the 'used car salesmen' are not present in home improvement, automotive performance shops, and IT solutions providers - there's plenty there too - but at least in my admittedly geographically challenged experience over the past few years... there's at least a fairly rapid thinning of the herd in most of those other areas. In CE and home automation & security - again at least around here - it seems like the good shops died out long ago and only the crap is left.

Please don't misconstrue this as a belief that YOU are inherently dishonest because you run a business in this industry - I'm merely stating my opinion and experience as both a business owner and as a consumer - in what I believed at least were similar areas.

(I originally was going to post in the other thread, but I felt it was better served here).

I just thought of perhaps a good analogy that I feel isn't (here at least) but should be mirrored in CE:

My previous car was a Nissan 350Z - since the GTR was not yet available, at the time it was the most expensive car Nissan sold. When I went to purchase it the sales staff was rude, pushy, and seemed put off by the fact that I wasn't adding on all sorts of stuff and using their (horrible) in-house lending. So I walked out and went across the street and bought one used with only 5K miles on it. No matter how many ludicrously over-priced services I purchased from them - it was always a hassle - in fact, it took me over 2 years to get warranty service on a couple of things (to their credit, the did eventually capitulate - but I had to bring in the TSB's and escalate things to the regional rep first.). <--- THIS IS WHAT I SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

A year ago I traded it in on a Lexus IS350 - which is next to the cheapest thing Lexus sells, and since mine was used and I got an incredible deal on it - they didn't make much of anything on me (but they made plenty on the previous owner...LOL!). When I go in for an oil change there - it's like night and day. Someone get's me coffee, the service manager is in no hurry, does not try to make any upsells - but is extremely attentive in providing options and complete pricing of product to achieve the desired result. <--- THIS IS WHAT I FEEL I SHOULD SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

ME: I'm looking to reduce body-roll in cornering while maintaining a fairly standard ride-height.
SERVICE MGR: Well, let me see what we can do - what is your target budget?
ME: Right now, I could go up to about $4K if necessary - top end.
SERVICE MGR: I don't think you'll need nearly that much if you're willing to go aftermarket on a couple of things... If we add the F-Sport control arms and the chassis bracing - that will be about $1200 parts and labor - I think you'll have 70% of what you're looking for. If you're willing to so a little shopping around you can find some good coilovers from the following manufacturers for probably less than $1500 for the set. If you decided you'd like us to do the install, we can schedule it to coincide with the braces and you'll only need to pay for 2 hours labor on it. Or you can check with another installer to see if it's better. But I think you might find that the bracing alone with the factory suspension will be very, very good - and might keep you happy until you're ready to pull the trigger on an IS-F even!
ME: I LOVE YOU!

OK I made that last part up - but you can bet whatever it is that I want done - he's getting my business... and unless something drastic happens to me financially-speaking - that dealership is getting all of my business from here on out.

No offense taken!

All great points and questions which I will answer in a day or so. The answer will be pretty involved, but thorough.

 

[digicidal]

No offense taken!

All great points and questions which I will answer in a day or so. The answer will be pretty involved, but thorough.

I look forward to it - and hopefully I'll have a different experiece to factor in since I discovered that LinkUs now has a location here and is the authorized Paradigm dealer for Nevada - so I'm going to head over there ASAP to hopefully experience something different! And hopefully fall in love with some Studio-20s or Signature-S2s... but I'm not holding my breath on that one as I've heard some of the larger ones (Studio70s) and was impressed but not in comparison to much cheaper speakers I already own - I'm hoping the Signature line is a different beast (or that the monitors have more of the accuracy and detail I'm looking for which was lacking in the towers).

I'm always willing to keep trying new people/businesses - but I'm not willing to keep giving money to people that act like they're doing me a favor just by taking it. Although I don't know much about LinkUs as a company... the fact that they've been successful in California enough to expand gives me some hope - now I just have to hope that someone looking to spend "only" a few thousand dollars is still worth their time.