2CH Upmixing Comparison: Dolby Atmos vs Auro 3D vs DTS:X

[gene]

I did some 2CH upmixing comparisons with the front LCR's turned off on my Storm Audio ISP MK2 processor last night and got interesting results.

Check out my YT Video here:

If anyone has all 3 formats, please recreate this experiment using Dominque Fils-Aime track Birds.

• DSU - best layering and percussion sound effects through surrounds, but some artifacting like the surrounds were bottoming out
• Auro 3D - constant vocals in all channels, but with a LPF engaged to taper off highs, no layering
• DTS Neural:X - similar to DSU but more details, but lots of pumping artifacting during transients

 

[Sam Ash]

Hi Gene, I really enjoyed this video and love listening to 2-channels music up-mixed via DPLIIx. I got the opportunity to listen to 2-channels music via DSU at a friends place when it first came out and I did not like the end-results. It was nowhere near the subtle and pleasing balance that I get from DPLIIx. However, after coming across your video, it seems DSU has been updated and improved. I wish there was a way for you to compare the current version of DSU to DPLIIx, that would have been nice. Are you still using a Storm processor? I like the interface.

I think Dolby Atmos music is slowly coming to some of the streaming services which is nice. I'd love to listen to native immersive content.

 

[Sam Ash]

Have you experienced DPLIIx? and if you have how does the latest implementation of DSU compare?

 

[TLS Guy]

I did some 2CH upmixing comparisons with the front LCR's turned off on my Storm Audio ISP MK2 processor last night and got interesting results.

Check out my YT Video here:

If anyone has all 3 formats, please recreate this experiment using Dominque Fils-Aime track Birds.

• DSU - best layering and percussion sound effects through surrounds, but some artifacting like the surrounds were bottoming out
• Auro 3D - constant vocals in all channels, but with a LPF engaged to taper off highs, no layering
• DTS Neural:X - similar to DSU but more details, but lots of pumping artifacting during transients

Gene, I conformed your results over four years ago. In my amp controller I can also switch my power amps on and off. My amps draw far too much current to be turned on and off with the 12 volt trigger. So I have an amp controller I designed and built that works with 27 volt relays. The power amps are also connected to magnetic shunt breakers at the panel to absorb the turn on current. So I can turn the speaker amps on individually. There are 9 two channel amps in all, powering a 7.4.2 system with 3,200 audio watts.

My results are identical to yours, so I can confirm you results. We are in complete agreement. The only one that is any good is the Dolby Upmixer. I have the Marantz AVP 7705. The Auro 3D is awful and useless, The DTS is not really listenable. The Dolby DD Sur upmixer I find to be incredible.

I have a couple of videos you might want to view to see exactly how good it is.

The Scott Brothers Duo have incredible videos. I think Jonathan Scott is the best organist and transcriber for organ in the world right now. His brother James does the recording and filming. He is also a concert pianist and they often play duos.

Shady mentioned a recording of the Lichen Cathedral organs which are spaced around the Cathedral. Tom uses just one stereo pair of mics. On my rig the Dolby upmixer places all the organs correctly. Tom did put the larger organ which is at the back in front. So there is a 180 degree reversal, which was sensible.

The reason this works so well, is that with a single stereo pair the phase relationships are correctly preserved so the upmixer can work correctly.

Almost all recording engineers don't really know their craft. Almost all bung up and scatter around far too many microphones. When I was recording radio broadcasts on a regular bases, I used either a crossed figure of 8 pair, or the M-S technique. Since I often had non professional singers, I would gently spot them. Those recordings have preserved phase relationships and work very well with the Dolby Upmixer.

Here is another of Toms recordings. This organ has a division on the right. On my rig this division plays pretty much exclusively on the right surround at the side.

My experience is that the Dolby Upmixer does not work well when the recording venue is peppered with microphones, they are spaced and therefore separated in space and time, which is a technical disaster.

I am seeing on the concert streams I watch a very encouraging reduction in the microphone count of late.

 

[oniiz86]

My results are identical to yours, so I can confirm you results. We are in complete agreement. The only one that is any good is the Dolby Upmixer. I have the Marantz AVP 7705. The Auro 3D is awful and useless, The DTS is not really listenable. The Dolby DD Sur upmixer I find to be incredible.

Yes your lucky you still have a 2018 D+M model , the 2020 AV7706 model not so much, the Dolby Surround Upmixer "was" pretty good before it got butchered with later DSU iterations concerning upmixing of 2 Ch sources, the infamous "Dolby Dialog Bleed" issue that still afflicts the latest D+M 2022/23 models albeit to a lesser degree, still not as good on pre-2019 D+M AVR/AVP models

 

[gene]

Gene, I conformed your results over four years ago. In my amp controller I can also switch my power amps on and off. My amps draw far too much current to be turned on and off with the 12 volt trigger. So I have an amp controller I designed and built that works with 27 volt relays. The power amps are also connected to magnetic shunt breakers at the panel to absorb the turn on current. So I can turn the speaker amps on individually. There are 9 two channel amps in all, powering a 7.4.2 system with 3,200 audio watts.

My results are identical to yours, so I can confirm you results. We are in complete agreement. The only one that is any good is the Dolby Upmixer. I have the Marantz AVP 7705. The Auro 3D is awful and useless, The DTS is not really listenable. The Dolby DD Sur upmixer I find to be incredible.

I have a couple of videos you might want to view to see exactly how good it is.

The Scott Brothers Duo have incredible videos. I think Jonathan Scott is the best organist and transcriber for organ in the world right now. His brother James does the recording and filming. He is also a concert pianist and they often play duos.

Shady mentioned a recording of the Lichen Cathedral organs which are spaced around the Cathedral. Tom uses just one stereo pair of mics. On my rig the Dolby upmixer places all the organs correctly. Tom did put the larger organ which is at the back in front. So there is a 180 degree reversal, which was sensible.

The reason this works so well, is that with a single stereo pair the phase relationships are correctly preserved so the upmixer can work correctly.

Almost all recording engineers don't really know their craft. Almost all bung up and scatter around far too many microphones. When I was recording radio broadcasts on a regular bases, I used either a crossed figure of 8 pair, or the M-S technique. Since I often had non professional singers, I would gently spot them. Those recordings have preserved phase relationships and work very well with the Dolby Upmixer.

Here is another of Toms recordings. This organ has a division on the right. On my rig this division plays pretty much exclusively on the right surround at the side.

My experience is that the Dolby Upmixer does not work well when the recording venue is peppered with microphones, they are spaced and therefore separated in space and time, which is a technical disaster.

I am seeing on the concert streams I watch a very encouraging reduction in the microphone count of late.

Thanks for this info. Curious if you're still turning off Center spread for 2CH upmixing? I find center spread is best IF you're sitting at MLP since your mains should already be throwing a great phantom center. If I sit in a far off-axis seat, I turn center spread off.

DTS:X pro upmixer for 2CH is absolute trash which is such a pity because the last generation DTS Neo upmixer was great for music and it had a separate cinema mode too.

Auro 3D upmixer depends on a lot of factors to sound good

• There are different versions of Auro upmixer depending on which is licensed by the manufacturer at the time. My Storm processor uses one optimized for cinema while the Marantz AV10 is a newer ver and better for music.
• How you adjust you parameters makes a world of difference (ie. room size, effect level, etc)

 

[gene]

Have you experienced DPLIIx? and if you have how does the latest implementation of DSU compare?

I've actually done extensive 2CH upmixing comparisons between Dolby PLIIx Music Mode vs the DSU on a Yamaha processor that had both supported. I found Dolby PLIIX Music mode to be superior for both 2CH and 5.1CH upmixing to the DSU IF there were no height channels used. IE, you're running 7.1. Once you're running 7.1.4, I clearly preferred the DSU over PLIX Music mode in 7.1. I hope that helps.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for this info. Curious if you're still turning off Center spread for 2CH upmixing? I find center spread is best IF you're sitting at MLP since your mains should already be throwing a great phantom center. If I sit in a far off-axis seat, I turn center spread off.

DTS:X pro upmixer for 2CH is absolute trash which is such a pity because the last generation DTS Neo upmixer was great for music and it had a separate cinema mode too.

Auro 3D upmixer depends on a lot of factors to sound good

• There are different versions of Auro upmixer depending on which is licensed by the manufacturer at the time. My Storm processor uses one optimized for cinema while the Marantz AV10 is a newer ver and better for music.
• How you adjust you parameters makes a world of difference (ie. room size, effect level, etc)

I do not use center spread. That ruins the effect of the upmixer totally.

I have been attending the odd concert lately and then I have heard the streamed recording later. I have to say the sound in my room is incredibly true to life.
I am so pleased with how this last room turned out. I just dread having to replace any item. I never have to fuss with it now and haven't for some years now. I just turn it on and off. I would never have guessed a system could make the sound far deeper and wider, than the room you are actually in. So yes, in my rig the upmixer works in what I would regard as a totally miraculous fashion, especially with Tom Scotts recordings.

I listened to the Lichen Basilica recording again last night after I posted the link to it above. It is just incredible how the 360 degree sound stage is preserved by his simple mic technique.

I think a lot of the credit has to go my mentors who I corresponded with for years. Three of them were intimately involved with designing and building the legendary, dual TL triamped active speakers at the BBC Maida Vale studios. They were widely recognized as the finest monitor speakers in the world. At the time I was designing my system for Benedict Lake and now moved here, the Maida Vale speakers were being decommissioned. So, I decided to take the model, improve and update it. I subsequently had four of the amp boards from the Maida Vale monitors come my way. I don't use them, they are just collectible items.

Sadly the BBC were recently forced to sell their Maida Vale studios due to budget constraints.

Anyhow the spirit of the glory days of the Maida Vale monitors lives on here in Eagan MN.

 

[Sam Ash]

I've actually done extensive 2CH upmixing comparisons between Dolby PLIIx Music Mode vs the DSU on a Yamaha processor that had both supported. I found Dolby PLIIX Music mode to be superior for both 2CH and 5.1CH upmixing to the DSU IF there were no height channels used. IE, you're running 7.1. Once you're running 7.1.4, I clearly preferred the DSU over PLIX Music mode in 7.1. I hope that helps.

Thanks Gene, you've made a good point and I agree with you. I run DPLIIx on a 7.1 configurations and love it.

You said you prefered DPLIIx over DSU on a 7.1 configuration but preferred DSU with the addition of height channels. Do the height channels make that much of a difference for music to qualify DSU? Would the bed channels still not be the main deciding factor for the up-mixing codec?

I am asking because I tried DSU when it was first introduced and it was nowhere near as good as DPLIIx. However, I'm told DSU has gone through some updates and has been improved.