2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff

[PENG]

My point is people tend to dumb down results of sighted or blind tests without doing any real statistical analysis to determine the merit of the test or its results.

I think I know what you mean. I, for one, have never said, and will never say all amps sound the same. However, it is my firm belief that those so called night and day or huge kind of difference could easily be proved or disapproved by DBT and I am sure even the fellow at the university of Manitoba could agree. For subtle differences, I can see that DBT may not be all that reliable.

Several reviewers of my staff were convinced all amps sound the same so I in fact did conduct a listening test switching between two amps (a really poorly designed Class D from Panasonic, and a mid priced Yamaha receiver). Every listener in the room heard a clear difference between the amps most notably in bass and with speakers that exhibited low impedance below 60Hz. Both amps were not driven near clipped levels and the listeners had no idea which amp they were listening to at any given time.

I believe it. You were comparing two amps of not only different class (D vs A/B I assume) and one was poorly designed.

How an amp interacts with a speaker is a complex topic and whether or NOT listeners can identify the sonic differences in a particular listening room and program material is even more complex.

Again, this would be expected unless the amps being compared have very low output impedance.

I am all for blind and controlled tests but often see too many people religiously clinging to them as absolutes for all situations (ie. all amps sound the same, all CD players sound the same, etc).

True, but there are just as many people who tell others on reflex how an amp upgrade, either in terms of power output our perceived higher end, would make huge difference, without qualifications.

Be careful to not fall into this trap that I've often found myself falling into in the past since my background has a heavy basis in engineering and science.

Same here, we need more people with engineering and science background to post, in order to provide people with different view points, and most importantly, more balanced view points instead of the otherwise exclusively "all ...sound the same" or "amps/more power makes huge improvements".

 

[PENG]

13 pages? C'mon, look at my avatar. There's no way for me to get through that. Are there Cliff Notes available? I was under the impression that the $1,000 Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz rec'rs would sound if not exactly the same then pretty close to it. Am I to understand that that is a misconception?

Not only you need patience, unless you are a fresh science/engineering/maths graduate, you need to brush up on your statistics first before reading the article.

 

[PENG]

Yep, all well known issues that one must be aware of when testing/drawing conclusions. Do note however, the utter frivolity of claiming not-so-subtle differences between electronic component X and Y, in casual "subjective" uncontrolled, sighted listening, when the same claimer is forced to randomly guess, when listening to X and Y blind.

What should also be noted, is how listeners can "hear" big differences, sighted, when told that B and C has been swapped, when in fact, nothing in the electro-acoustic system has changed whatsoever.

Luckily your tests were with Loudspeakers, where audible differences are not as subtle as to be "hidden" by blinding .

cheers,

AJ

Exactly my point too. I believe there are subtile differences between mid range AVR/amps of the same basic design classifications (class A, A/B, D, G etc.) depending on many circumstance factors. DBT most likely are not the right test to prove or disapprove whether there are subtle differences, but such tests should be able to substantiate whether there are those so called huge, or day and night differences. Some one should do a search on day and night and see what comes up.

 

[jamie2112]

Maybe whomever was listening to one of the AVR's during the day and they other one at Night.Thats about the only Night and Day difference......

 

[Seth=L]

My point is people tend to dumb down results of sighted or blind tests without doing any real statistical analysis to determine the merit of the test or its results. Several reviewers of my staff were convinced all amps sound the same so I in fact did conduct a listening test switching between two amps (a really poorly designed Class D from Panasonic, and a mid priced Yamaha receiver). Every listener in the room heard a clear difference between the amps most notably in bass and with speakers that exhibited low impedance below 60Hz. Both amps were not driven near clipped levels and the listeners had no idea which amp they were listening to at any given time.

How an amp interacts with a speaker is a complex topic and whether or NOT listeners can identify the sonic differences in a particular listening room and program material is even more complex.

I am all for blind and controlled tests but often see too many people religiously clinging to them as absolutes for all situations (ie. all amps sound the same, all CD players sound the same, etc).

Be careful to not fall into this trap that I've often found myself falling into in the past since my background has a heavy basis in engineering and science.

Competently designed components in the same price range/weight class/design concept should sound the same. It goes without saying that a wimpy class D receiver from Panasonic would not sound the same as a Yamaha receiver with a significant advantage in dynamic headroom.

I don't expect a Pioneer receiver with a 400kva power transformer, 2 - 4700uF caps, and the cheapest bipolar transistors that can achieve 100 watts @ 6 ohms to compare favorably with a mid class receiver with a 800kva transformer 2 - 15000uF caps, and stout transistor pairs or quads capable of handling up to 300 watts on a given channel @ 6 or 8 ohms while playing a dynamic source material with a potentially complex load.

Depending on one's listening habits, room size, and speakers they may not notice a difference between the two. I have a very low current demand for my system. My Infinity speakers are incredibly easy to drive and don't have a loony impedance curve. My little Teac, unless pressed hard, sounds no different from most of the stuff I use, but as I said my current demands are very low, and the speakers are extremely easy to drive. Highs sound right, mids sound right, and the bass is tight. I personally don't need anymore than what I've got.

That obviously doesn't apply to many people. However I'd wager the Teac is fair more competently designed than the poor little Panasonic class D receiver. It's no surprise they dropped out of the receiver race. They went from those Class H receivers to the Class D and things just didn't seem to shape up for them. The Class D receivers sure looked impressive on paper though. Oh well.

 

[AJinFLA]

DBT most likely are not the right test to prove or disapprove whether there are subtle differences

To the contrary....DBT's are exactly what are used to determine human audibility thresholds, such FR deviation detection in the midband down to 0.1db.
If someone want's to claim that there are audible "subtle differences" below controlled thresholds that are being missed, then my question is, how did you "hear" them? Using what method, were these missed subtleties audibly discovered?

cheers,

AJ

 

[GO-NAD!]

13 pages? C'mon, look at my avatar. There's no way for me to get through that. Are there Cliff Notes available? I was under the impression that the $1,000 Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz rec'rs would sound if not exactly the same then pretty close to it. Am I to understand that that is a misconception?

I had the same reaction....

 

[pvsat]

Klipsch gets great reviews on Home theater Mag

I just read the latest reviews on klipsh Icon WB-14 and they have been rated very high. Interesting that klipsch speakers have started sounding very good to some of the major reviewers in a very short span.

 

[PENG]

I just read the latest reviews on klipsh Icon WB-14 and they have been rated very high. Interesting that klipsch speakers have started sounding very good to some of the major reviewers in a very short span.

I find it hard to believe the participant found the speakers sounding so similar. I A/B the RF-82, Polk Audio RTIA9, and Energy RC-70. It was a sighted test but for sure I could turn my back and tell them apart. They were hooked up to a RX-V3900 only but in 2 channel that thing has more than enough power for the SPL I was listening to.

I guess Gene pick the right speakers and was therefore comparing apple to apple.

 

[gene]

I find it hard to believe the participant found the speakers sounding so similar.

The speakers didn't sound similar. They each scored differently though our scale was a bit too narrow to reflect that. The lossy grille cloth, positional differences of the listeners and lack of experience of some of the listeners played a big role in the variability of the results.

 

[PENG]

The speakers didn't sound similar. They each scored differently though our scale was a bit too narrow to reflect that. The lossy grille cloth, positional differences of the listeners and lack of experience of some of the listeners played a big role in the variability of the results.

Thank you for clarifying this, now I understand. The scores look very much the same (close enough) but that does not mean they sound similar.

 

[sholling]

What I think would be fun and valuable for follow up would be a $300-500 street price tower shootout. We get we get a lot of questions from new members just getting started in audio that are challenged by large rooms and $400 budgets. I think that a shootout between say Infinity's Primus P362, Polk's Monitor 70, and Klipsch's Synergy F-1 would be a lot of fun. These three towers commonly go on sale for $300-400/pr which is about the limit for a lot of newcomers. The Energy C-100 below is closer to $500/pr. I'd probably gear this test toward rooms a bit too large for budget bookshelves. And I'd only test 8 ohm speakers with a minimum sensitivity of 90db. Very important features when you're limited to a $250-400 receiver.

Specs:
Klipsch Synergy F-1

• Frequency response: 38Hz - 23kHz, +/-3dB
• Sensitivity: 93dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter
• Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

Infinity Primus P362

• Frequency response: 38Hz - 20kHz, +/-3db
• Sensitivity: 93dB
• Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

Polk Monitor 70

• Frequency response: 40Hz - 24kHz -3db (no plus figure given)
• Sensitivity: 90dB
• Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

Energy's C-100 might be borderline

• Frequency response: 40Hz - 20kHz, +/-3db
• Sensitivity: 89dB (92db in-room claimed)
• Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

 

[Alex2507]

I think that a shootout between say Infinity's Primus P362, Polk's Monitor 70, and Klipsch's Synergy F-1 would be a lot of fun.

Why humiliate Polk and Klipsh?

 

[sholling]

Why humiliate Polk and Klipsh?

Who would have thought that Klipsch would have done as well as it did in the $1k shootout?

 

[AJinFLA]

Who would have thought that Klipsch would have done as well as it did in the $1k shootout?

People over 40 yrs old, or younger folks overexposed to high SPL?

 

[Alex2507]

Who would have thought that Klipsch would have done as well as it did in the $1k shootout?

Yeah, go figure ... I'm just trash talking because I own the 360's. What's nuts is that I bought mine from Speakerman39 who replaced then with some Polks that he said he liked much more. My sister ended up buying his Polks later on and I really didn't like them. She went on to replace the Polks with some Behringer 2030p's that she thinks sound better than my 360's.

I like your idea of sticking to street prices but that may be a problem in the eyes of the manufacturer who has to agree to be in the shootout. Why doesn't AH just get their own speakers to review like Consumer Reports? That's just a question even though it sounds like a criticism.

 

[sholling]

I like your idea of sticking to street prices but that may be a problem in the eyes of the manufacturer who has to agree to be in the shootout. Why doesn't AH just get their own speakers to review like Consumer Reports? That's just a question even though it sounds like a criticism.

The convenient thing about a $300-400/pr street price shootout are these are cheap enough to buy 2 pair and ebay or return them to Best Buy or Walmart after the test - especially if you catch a sale. The 1st pair (Infinity P362) could come from the Audioholics Store. Walmart.com has the Klipsch on sale for $128ea with free site-to store shipping. And they take returns in store. So that's two test subjects at zero cost.

That just leaves the Polk Monitor 70s as the 3rd must-have contestant, and the harder to find Energies as an extra contestant if and only if Energy will provide a pair. Newegg has the Monitor 70s on sale every other week for $150-170ea shipped. Those could be ebayed if Polk won't provide a pair.

Note that I did not include the well regarded EMP Impression E5Ti because 87db efficiency and a 6 ohm nominal impedance put them in a bit different class when driven from a $250 receiver.

I really think this would be a fun and valuable project for our experts.

 

[Alex2507]

Note that I did not include the well regarded EMP Impression E5Ti because 87db efficiency and a 6 ohm nominal impedance put them in a bit different class when driven from a $250 receiver.

I'm not crazy about trying to drive the Infinities with an entry level rec'r. At around 90Hz their impedance starts to dip low and their phase angle is like 45 degrees. They're pretty good for the money but you gotsta give 'em some juice ... but I don't think Gene and Clint are going to be scamming Wal-Mart for speakers to do reviews on ... again.

The kind of review we're talking about is most likely to happen with 3 guys in a basement drinking beers out of a cooler getting shattered.

 

[tsteves]

How about Sub $800 bookshelf speakers? Most people use subs, and I honestly think people are best served with 2-way bookshelf speakers in the sub $1000 range. I am always disappointed with floorstanders in this range - too many compromises. I haven't heard the EMP's or Axioms, but I have heard Klipsch, and if they can't beat out this level of Klipsch, I don't know why I'd bother.
I wish to death Audioholics could get their hands on some Paradigms, Monitor Audios, B&W, Kef's or what have you. Cut them off at 80Hz and then do full range listening. Don't get me wrong, I love speaker reviews of this sort - especially the blind listening, it adds huge credibility to the results. I hope the "big name" manufacturers turn around and see the opportunity to get a wider audience for their products.

 

[sholling]

How about Sub $800 bookshelf speakers? Most people use subs, and I honestly think people are best served with 2-way bookshelf speakers in the sub $1000 range. I am always disappointed with floorstanders in this range - too many compromises. I haven't heard the EMP's or Axioms, but I have heard Klipsch, and if they can't beat out this level of Klipsch, I don't know why I'd bother.

I agree it's valuable but it's been done. One reason for towers is if you're filling a large room where there isn't much that substitutes for large speakers.