2 channel audio vs. multichannel audio

furrycute

furrycute

Banned
Who here is into 2 channel audio?

Right now I have a strict 2 channel setup, a 50lb amp, a CD player, and 2 speakers. Does anyone prefer multichannel audio to 2 channel?
 
jaguars_fan

jaguars_fan

Junior Audioholic
I truly enjoy my stereo music and that is why I have a good high current receiver connected to a pair of floor standing Paradigms. When it's time to put in a movie, the rears kick in with the center and sub! Best of both worlds!

In that respect, I guess I prefer the multi-channel amp with great front speakers to do the heavy lifting for two channel. ;)
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
It depends. Well mixed and balanced multi channel audio an be quite enjoyable. It seems that finding that balance is more difficult, disk to disk, that with stereo audio. Really good stereo (to me anyway) requires a really good pair of full range speakers.

Mort
 
G

GmcG

Audiophyte
I prefer multi-channel music - THX Music mode.
There are some important points how to set it up properly.
Please note that I auditioned the best stereo systems, for example dCS, MBL, etc.
 
jaguars_fan

jaguars_fan

Junior Audioholic
GmcG said:
I prefer multi-channel music - THX Music mode.
There are some important points how to set it up properly.
Please note that I auditioned the best stereo systems, for example dCS, MBL, etc.
This is something I haven't tried yet. While my system does have the capability of DVD-A and is wired, I just have not really given it much of a run. I suppose it's due to the fact that my rears are much smaller (NHT hybrids) and I won't get the full range I experience from the fronts.
 
G

GmcG

Audiophyte
jaguars_fan said:
This is something I haven't tried yet. While my system does have the capability of DVD-A and is wired, I just have not really given it much of a run. I suppose it's due to the fact that my rears are much smaller (NHT hybrids) and I won't get the full range I experience from the fronts.
You don't need the full range from fronts. DVD-A uses LFE channel, and it is better to reproduce it through the subwoofer and satellites. In addition you avoid high level of distortions at low frequencies, usually presented in floorstanding speakers.
The important point is an i-link connection. It is jitterless and doesn't require the additional A->D conversion for TA. If TA is made in DVD- player, in many cases they use only 24-bit DSPs, which are not satisfactory for music modes.
Too many points to discuss.
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I much prefer MC to stereo, if it's a good MC recording anyway.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
furrycute said:
Who here is into 2 channel audio?

Right now I have a strict 2 channel setup, a 50lb amp, a CD player, and 2 speakers. Does anyone prefer multichannel audio to 2 channel?

Since you asked, I prefer multi channel even if not recorded in such format. Dolby pro logic or the new DPLII will do a very fine job for my enjoyment.
 
J

Jack N

Audioholic
For me there isn't a definitive answer. I've found that it depends almost entirely on each individual recording. One song might sound best in stereo, while the next one might sound best in 8 channel, while the next might sound best in Neo6. After spending time in the different modes, you get quicker at knowing which mode is going to sound best with that particular song. Because you're an "audioholic", I would suggest getting full range speakers for all your channels if you make the switch to multi-channel.
 
dsa220

dsa220

Junior Audioholic
For me it's two-channel. Far more coherent sounding to me with the ability to follow musical lines and interplay between musicians (especially classical).

I have many multi-channel [SACD] recordings covering many different genres of music, and to date have only found about four or five that are worth anything in their multi-channel mode, everything else I playback in two-channel. I have just about given up on multi-channel and it’s too bad as I had high hopes for it.
 
G

GmcG

Audiophyte
dsa220 said:
For me it's two-channel. Far more coherent sounding to me with the ability to follow musical lines and interplay between musicians (especially classical).

I have many multi-channel [SACD] recordings covering many different genres of music, and to date have only found about four or five that are worth anything in their multi-channel mode, everything else I playback in two-channel. I have just about given up on multi-channel and it’s too bad as I had high hopes for it.
One needs to have a proper set up to enjoy the multi-channel music. Classic music needs to keep the phase relations between the channels (so called "coherent sounding") to have the correct image, in other case it will sound innatural and break the effect.
I recommend to everyone to try the THX music mode with the proper configuratuion of speakers (two dipeles as side surrounds, a good musical subwoofer and all other channels in "small") through i-link. For SACD multi-channel it is importand to have DSD->PCM conversion to have TA and BM.
 
dsa220

dsa220

Junior Audioholic
GmcG said:
One needs to have a proper set up to enjoy the multi-channel music. Classic music needs to keep the phase relations between the channels (so called "coherent sounding") to have the correct image, in other case it will sound innatural and break the effect.
I recommend to everyone to try the THX music mode with the proper configuratuion of speakers (two dipeles as side surrounds, a good musical subwoofer and all other channels in "small") through i-link. For SACD multi-channel it is importand to have DSD->PCM conversion to have TA and BM.
I have tried all types of DSP reproduction, and they all suffer miserably compared to a good two-channel rig. I have even had a good friend set-up a dedicated music room with 5 identical speakers, proper room conditioning, speaker placement, the works; still sounded horrible to me (and most of our friends who are musicians, as am I).

What I find when listening to [most] multi-channel music is that after a short period of time I start to 'music surf', never making it completly thru a CD/SACD or a even song, even on my friends system; he even finds himself doing the same thing after a while.

I don't find myself doing this with movies, or watching television (TiVo); so it's not the issue of being 'surrounded' by sound. My current system provides a very good, seamless and stable soundfield with movies and the few SACD's that sound good in multi-channel. When done right (music wise) it is a very convincing illusion, unfortunately, this does not happen very often, at least for me.

Most of the problems [IMO] lies in the recording and subsequent mixing and transfers that take place. Minute changes in levels and some phase problems cause instruments or their by-products to appear in locations within the soundfield that are not natural, such as next to you or behind you. There is nothing more distracting for me than to be listening to a good recording and following the melodic line and the interplay of good musicians, then suddenly hear a cymble crash next to me, or the orchestra starts to surround me. These are not things I hear at live performances, and I do not wish to hear them in my listening room.

2-channel is far from perfect, I am the first to say this. I could not wait for multi-channel music to become available, but what we have now bears little to no resemblace to the way real music is reproduced live, at least what I listen to.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I don't mean this as a rebuttle, but I'm just the opposite- I'll often throw in a DVD-A just to hear one song and end up listening to the whole thing. Most of my 'music surfing' is with stereo. A good MC is so engaging and immersive to me that I'll lose all track of time.

I also will add that some of the best MC discs are perhaps the least realistic. Take Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots by the Flaming Lips- what would or even could be real in the the sound effects? Electronica (that label doesn't really fit the 'Lips, but bear with me) well mixed for surround seems to me a bit like impressionist painting. The surrealistic effect of the pans in Pink Floyd's "Money" aren't meant to be "realistic" in any concrete sense, but an artistic construction.

Without making this a philosophy debate, I no longer think "realistic" reproduction of most pop music should even be the goal. What is "real" with a multitracked monster assembled Frankenstein style out of many takes & bits all mixed together? Oftimes they graft & layer tracks with completely different phase & reverberent envelopes, as well as mixing closely miked tracks with parts recorded in completely different environments. How many times does a stereo record really sound like the band does live?

In the end, the question is this: is a recording a document of an event, like a photograph, or a composed peice of art, like a painting? With a classical recording, perhaps you're often aiming for the former, but with rock/pop/jazz/blues/country, I think the product should usually be viewed as the latter.

I'm certainly not trying to refute anyones experiences or opinions- everyones opinion is valid, at least for them. I just find our differences of point of view interesting.
 
G

GmcG

Audiophyte
dsa220 said:
I have tried all types of DSP reproduction, and they all suffer miserably compared to a good two-channel rig. I have even had a good friend set-up a dedicated music room with 5 identical speakers, proper room conditioning, speaker placement, the works; still sounded horrible to me (and most of our friends who are musicians, as am I).
Five identical speakers is not a proper MC set up, unfortunately. Here is the explanation why:
http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_3.pdf
What I find when listening to [most] multi-channel music is that after a short period of time I start to 'music surf', never making it completly thru a CD/SACD or a even song, even on my friends system; he even finds himself doing the same thing after a while.
I don't find myself doing this with movies, or watching television (TiVo); so it's not the issue of being 'surrounded' by sound. My current system provides a very good, seamless and stable soundfield with movies and the few SACD's that sound good in multi-channel. When done right (music wise) it is a very convincing illusion, unfortunately, this does not happen very often, at least for me.
Most of the problems [IMO] lies in the recording and subsequent mixing and transfers that take place. Minute changes in levels and some phase problems cause instruments or their by-products to appear in locations within the soundfield that are not natural, such as next to you or behind you. There is nothing more distracting for me than to be listening to a good recording and following the melodic line and the interplay of good musicians, then suddenly hear a cymble crash next to me, or the orchestra starts to surround me. These are not things I hear at live performances, and I do not wish to hear them in my listening room.
You are absolutely right, the key words are "a phase match". One needs to make it correctly, and 24-bit DSP is not the correct way to do TA and BM, as well as using of full range speakers vs satellites and a musical subwoofer.
2-channel is far from perfect, I am the first to say this. I could not wait for multi-channel music to become available, but what we have now bears little to no resemblace to the way real music is reproduced live, at least what I listen to.
It exists already, just need to have the proper set up. I recommend again to try listening in THX music mode using properly calibrated MC system.

P.S I am just the opposite, as well as Rob. In addition there is a problem with stereo tracks on SACD multi-channel disks - in many cases they are the same or similar as CD records - take a look here, for example:
http://www.stereophile.com/news/11649/index.html
And here is the comparison of stereo and multi-channel tracks on the same DSotM SACD disk - we can see (and hear) the significant difference:
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/sacd-dvd-a/dsotm.png
The same with Diane Krall multi-channel SACD:
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/sacd-dvd-a/dk-1.png
Therefore without the proper MC system in many cases one can't even get the highest sound quality ... it's sad, but true.
For those who doesn't understand how to read the graphs - we can see the lower backgroung noise floor for multi-channel tracks, the final sounding in this case lost the transparency ... we can't hear small images and signals, as they are masked by noises and products of intermodulation distortions, created by those noises ... it is more or less equal to the jitter effect. Take a look at the picture, which explains a bit how it works (imagine that empty space on the first picture just covered by the noises):
http://members.cox.net/alex_lat/images/DSP_Precision.jpg
 
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Z

zyepod

Enthusiast
Well I agree with Jack N here... All are not recorded equally. I do tend to prefer DVD-A's... Try Eric Clapton’s Live On Tour "One More Car, One More Rider" Crank it up and you'll be in the Concert... Two channels won't touch it. Might be me here also... But the ones that go to the expense of encoding DTS as well as DD seem to sound better. I usually play these in DTS...
 

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