$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

[PENG]

Why is peak current in the 2200ii double what it is in the 2250.

Given the rated continuous average power into 8,4,2 ohms, we could calculate the rated continuous current but only under the assumption that the specified watts are for resistive loads with impedance down to 2 ohms. If that amp can in fact output 50A continuously, it would indicate that the amp can deliver the specified watts such as 385W into 2 ohms reactive with a phase angle between current and voltage of almost 60 degrees, very impressive in that case. Of course that is only realizable if the amp can output a high enough voltage, example: 50V is needed to push 2A through 2 ohms.

Peak current is is tougher one to deal with. First of all, I am not sure how they specify peak current. Do they mean the peak of the current waveform, or do they mean "instaneous/momentary" rated rms current, or "instanteous/momentary" rated peak of the current waveform, or something else?

If it is "instantaneous" or "momentary" type of deal then we need to now for what duration, i.e. X milli second or Y micro second etc.

Regardless, in relative sense, I guess the one that has the higher so call peak current value probably is capable of a higher rail voltage, among other things..

 

[PENG]

I suppose I'm a little confused as to how they're arriving at 50 amperes continuous. 385 watts into 2 ohms equates to ~13.9 amps per channel. Even 25 amperes (50 amps divided into two channels) into a 2 ohm load is 1250 watts.

As you mentioned before, don't forget the phase angle thing, that power factor = cosineø. We don't call that "power factor" for no good reason.

 

[Steve81]

As you mentioned before, don't forget the phase angle thing, that power factor = cosineø. We don't call that "power factor" for no good reason.

Power factor reduces the amount of power the speaker sees, but I'm still not sure why they'd specify 385W into a 2 ohm load. I mean, if nothing else, 1250W into 0 degrees and 625W into 60 degrees @ 2 ohms sounds a lot better on a spec sheet than just 385W into 2 ohms (which would need a phase angle in excess of 70 degrees to get the power factor needed). Of course at the end of the day, I'd take one regardless

 

[billy p]

Wow...talk about off the rails...is all this related to the OP?

 

[Steve81]

Wow...talk about off the rails...is all this related to the OP?

Might ward him off from getting difficult to drive speakers if nothing else

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow...talk about off the rails...is all this related to the OP?

I believe so far the OP says the Paradigm, PSB, MartinLogan, GoldenEar, and Dynaudio were good, but he preferred the Tannoy, KEF, and Focal.

 

[JerryLove]

Given the rated continuous average power into 8,4,2 ohms, we could calculate the rated continuous current but only under the assumption that the specified watts are for resistive loads with impedance down to 2 ohms. If that amp can in fact output 50A continuously, it would indicate that the amp can deliver the specified watts such as 385W into 2 ohms reactive with a phase angle between current and voltage of almost 60 degrees, very impressive in that case. Of course that is only realizable if the amp can output a high enough voltage, example: 50V is needed to push 2A through 2 ohms.

So two amps which honestly declare 385W @2ohm can be different (as one could do it into 2 ohms reactive with a 60deg phase angle and another might not be able to do the same)?

Is there ever an instance where even at 1% max sustain wattage; the voltage or amperage requirement (or some form of feedback from the speaker (damping?) might exceed some component of an amplifier?

 

[PENG]

So two amps which honestly declare 385W @2ohm can be different (as one could do it into 2 ohms reactive with a 60deg phase angle and another might not be able to do the same)?

Is there ever an instance where even at 1% max sustain wattage; the voltage or amperage requirement (or some form of feedback from the speaker (damping?) might exceed some component of an amplifier?

Unless I misunderstood your question, no at 1% of max sustain rated output I don't believe it would come close to damage anything, that is, regardless of any phase angle and any dip of impedance, unless it is a dead short, or nearly a dead short.

 

[PENG]

I mean, if nothing else, 1250W into 0 degrees and 625W into 60 degrees @ 2 ohms sounds a lot better on a spec sheet than just 385W into 2 ohms (which would need a phase angle in excess of 70 degrees to get the power factor needed). Of course at the end of the day, I'd take one regardless

You've got it, 72.06 degree, that is power factor of 0.308 will get you the 385W they specified. So that amp should handle reactive loads quite well even painfully loud levels, from power stand point anyway. That is way too honest, so I don't get it either but I would also take that one anyway regardless.

 

[PENG]

Does anyone has a graph of an ugly reactive load with frequently fluctuating small to large phase angles?

 

[JerryLove]

Does anyone has a graph of an ugly reactive load with frequently fluctuating small to large phase angles?

that would be a speaker with very steep angles on the impedance graph?

What about this one? B&W Nautilus 801 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

[PENG]

that would be a speaker with very steep angles on the impedance graph?

What about this one? B&W Nautilus 801 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Well that's ugly enough I guess, with around -60 in the low bass and +45 in the mid bass and sloppy besides the peak angles. AVRs need not apply for sure unless you are happy to listen to such large speakers at 75 to 80 dB SPL in a small room.

 

[JerryLove]

Well that's ugly enough I guess, with around -60 in the low bass and +45 in the mid bass and sloppy besides the peak angles. AVRs need not apply for sure unless you are happy to listen to such large speakers at 75 to 80 dB SPL in a small room.

I own a pair.

They've been a pain to drive.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Hey...wow..off topic, but a very interesting discussion. I have only had time to skim so far, but please continue. One of the things I like about AH vs. AVS is the level of in depth knowledge.

As far as my speaker search, my top four ID contenders are Von Schweikert VR-22, Ascend Sierra Tower w/ Raal, Philharmonic 2(which are ordered), and SVS Ultra towers. ADTG'S was right about the B&M brands. So far my favorites were Kef R700/500, Tannoy 6.2, and Focal 826v.

My in home auditions will be starting in January.

 

[fuzz092888]

Philharmonic 2(which are ordered)

Wait, you ordered a pair?

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Wait, you ordered a pair?

Dennis Murphy posted in my thread over at AVS and offered to build me a pair using the older style of cabinets, made in Asia, for 2k, which I guess is what they used to go for. He is going to ship them out to me in mid January and he seemed totally cool that I was planning to also buy some competitor's products for an in home comparison. He said he would let me demo them for awhile and would take them back if that is what I end up deciding to do, as long as I pay shipping both ways. Really cool guy. I read he donates some money to the local orchestra for each purchase. I am planning to send in a donation to match it, even if I end up not keeping the Phil 2s.

I have not ordered any other speakers yet, but I will probably order the Ascend tower and VR-22 in late Nov or early Dec so that they all get here in January. Supposedly the SVS will be released soon, but I have not seen a definite date for those yet.

I have a feeling that it will be very tough to decide between them, as they all look so good.

 

[monkish54]

Dennis Murphy posted in my thread over at AVS and offered to build me a pair using the older style of cabinets, made in Asia, for 2k, which I guess is what they used to go for. He is going to ship them out to me in mid January and he seemed totally cool that I was planning to also buy some competitor's products for an in home comparison.

I look forward to your impressions!

He said he would let me demo them for awhile and would take them back if that is what I end up deciding to do, as long as I pay shipping both ways. Really cool guy.

One of the coolest!

I am planning to send in a donation to match it, even if I end up not keeping the Phil 2s.

That's really nice of you!

 

[fuzz092888]

Dennis Murphy posted in my thread over at AVS and offered to build me a pair using the older style of cabinets, made in Asia, for 2k, which I guess is what they used to go for. He is going to ship them out to me in mid January and he seemed totally cool that I was planning to also buy some competitor's products for an in home comparison. He said he would let me demo them for awhile and would take them back if that is what I end up deciding to do, as long as I pay shipping both ways. Really cool guy. I read he donates some money to the local orchestra for each purchase. I am planning to send in a donation to match it, even if I end up not keeping the Phil 2s.

I have not ordered any other speakers yet, but I will probably order the Ascend tower and VR-22 in late Nov or early Dec so that they all get here in January. Supposedly the SVS will be released soon, but I have not seen a definite date for those yet.

I have a feeling that it will be very tough to decide between them, as they all look so good.

Ah-ha, so you're the one.

Well that sounds like a good plan. Being able to demo a bunch of ID speakers is something not many get to do.

Yep, I know all about his coolness I have a pair of Phil 3's, and if you read he donates $50 of each sale off of the philharmonic website then you saw my handy work. Still needs a bit of love, but eventually I'll have that thing polished (the website that is).

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Ah-ha, so you're the one.

Well that sounds like a good plan. Being able to demo a bunch of ID speakers is something not many get to do.

Yep, I know all about his coolness I have a pair of Phil 3's, and if you read he donates $50 of each sale off of the philharmonic website then you saw my handy work. Still needs a bit of love, but eventually I'll have that thing polished (the website that is).

So I take it you work with Dennis? Cool!

As far as demoing a bunch of ID speakers, I figured it is worth it. Yes, once I ship some back the total cost of my new set of speakers will be increased due to the extra shipping costs, but this way I know I will be happy with my final decision. The cost of shipping is a fair price to get the speaker for 30-90 days, depending on which brand. Plus, SVS is offering free shipping both ways on the new Ultra speakers and Von Schweikert only charges for returns.

 

[fuzz092888]

So I take it you work with Dennis? Cool!

As far as demoing a bunch of ID speakers, I figured it is worth it. Yes, once I ship some back the total cost of my new set of speakers will be increased due to the extra shipping costs, but this way I know I will be happy with my final decision. The cost of shipping is a fair price to get the speaker for 30-90 days, depending on which brand. Plus, SVS is offering free shipping both ways on the new Ultra speakers and Von Schweikert only charges for returns.

Yes, a little bit. I only do the website, but in I get to stay in touch with him and usually get the scoop on what he's up to.

Yea, the price of peace of mind is worth it. Well, I shouldn't talk. I bought my Phil's sight unseen and didn't audition many of the ID brands I was interested in. Oh well, I couldn't be happier