$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

S

saeyedoc

Junior Audioholic
OP, I think you may be confusing the SCSTs with the standard Songtower with Raal upgrade. The SCST starts at $3500/pr for standard veneer.
 
A

Azmaria707

Audiophyte
Hi OP, I've got a modest rig with Phili2s as my mains, PM me if you wanna listen. I'm in Thorton.

Of your list, I really like the SVS Ultras (heard them at RMAF too). The Aperions were good but i felt they are out classed by most of the speakers mentioned (just my opion). I listened to most of your other choices but don't recall enough to give an opion one way or another.

Good luck finding your speakers. I feel for ya, was there 6 months ago.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
OP, I think you may be confusing the SCSTs with the standard Songtower with Raal upgrade. The SCST starts at $3500/pr for standard veneer.
Oops...I was confusing the supercharged versions with the standard versions with the Raal. I cannot afford the $3,500 ones. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
. . . If I really get into this hobby and upgrade later in life with a bigger budget, the HT2-TLs or SS8s will definitely be on my list.
Bunch of disclaimers first: 1) I haven't heard a darned speaker in this thread, nor the one that I will bring up as a possible consideration. 2) It may be impossible to have a nice audition, outside of extremely lucky circumstances. 3) I am unaware of all the latest developments and products not just from Salk, but pretty much all speaker companies (been out of it for a while). That all out of the way! . . .

If you know a woodworker that can build a box with a handful of braces inside, you might start inquiring about the ER18 build, as DIY. There have been a number of people here who have built it, and if you're extremely lucky, maybe one is close to you, and would allow you to check them out.

At the time I was looking at it, the closest Salk design to the ER18 was the HT2-TL, though the drivers in the latter are superior. But here's the catch, the ER18 as its Fountek ribbon version (there is a cheaper dome design as well) only cost $630 in parts at the time for a pair. The F3 was supposed to be 35hz, which is only 1hz higher than the HT2-TL.

As for power handling issues, you would have to ask those who know better, along with any other specific questions. Even if you paid the one woodworker you know quite handsomely, I think you should still hit your budget.

The drivers are Seas ER18 and Fountek NeoCD3.0 tweeter as MTM, just in case one of the house speaker nerds has anything to say about them. Probably no RAAL, but maybe good enough? Maybe someone knows a "commercial" speaker design using the same tweeter, that you can go hunt down.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
The drivers are Seas ER18 and Fountek NeoCD3.0 tweeter as MTM, just in case one of the house speaker nerds has anything to say about them. Probably no RAAL, but maybe good enough? Maybe someone knows a "commercial" speaker design using the same tweeter, that you can go hunt down.
First, welcome back. :) Second, Dennis Murphy's Philharmonc 1 uses a Fountek ribbon, and he likes it quite a bit.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Hi OP, I've got a modest rig with Phili2s as my mains, PM me if you wanna listen. I'm in Thorton.

Of your list, I really like the SVS Ultras (heard them at RMAF too). The Aperions were good but i felt they are out classed by most of the speakers mentioned (just my opion). I listened to most of your other choices but don't recall enough to give an opion one way or another.

Good luck finding your speakers. I feel for ya, was there 6 months ago.
Thanks for the offer! I will send you a PM.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Guys, thanks for all the great responses and opinions.

Im going to have to say Tekton Lore S, they are the only speaker I like with out a sub. Another option would be finding a pair of Wharfedale Opus 2-3's, these stand alone very well, I have a friend at WD and He may have a set left, I want to say he was selling them for $2700 or so , they were originally $6000... But for the money the Lores are worth the wait...

Opus2-3 | Wharfedale USA recommended 600watts and I was told they can handle 1000, and they make LOTS of clean bass..
with one of these Amazon.com: Crown XLS2000 Power Amplifier with integrated PureBand Crossover System and PeakX Limiters: Musical Instruments Is INSANE!!!
I heard that setup in a 20x15 room and it was crystal clear at 3/4 volume, we couldnt bare to turn it up anymore than that, it had to be almost 110db 10 feet from the speaker!!!

I like how the ascends sound, but with the smaller towers, the bass I want may be present but not powerful enough to fill the room, but this all depends on you and your music and music listening level.. I like everything from classic rock, alt., jazz, r&B, rap, country, ect... So the system has to be very versatile, that why I like music systems with subs.. IMO you will get a better sound with a couple towers that have 6.5" drivers and then add a couple sealed musical subs. Like my 2.2 -I bought the evo2-40 towers and added a pair of subs for less than the cost of a speaker that would have enough bass for me to stand alone... Plus you get to separate them, and your amps power isn't getting sucked up by the bass notes, instead it is getting dedicated to your mids and highs, the subs amps are doing all the hard work...
I have not really looked into Wharfdale speakers. I think there is a dealer near me, so I will try to add them to my list of stores to hit. As far as the Lore-S, I might give Eric a call or email and discuss with him some of the features of that speaker. It was on my short list when my budget was back at around $2,000, but there might just not be enough space/time to try every speaker out that looks interesting, unfortunately.

As far as a 2.1 or 2.2 setup, I agree, that would be ideal. It is definitely more cost efficient to get 2 smaller towers and a good sub or 2 than a huge super expensive tower. Maybe for my next setup when I have more money/space/a better receiver with bass management...sigh.

I'd toss Philharmonic Audio into the mix. If you like the Salk ST, I'd expect you'll enjoy these too. They dig deep (32Hz for even the Phil 1) so no special need for a subwoofer with most music. Aside from that, I'm partial to Ascend.
If you contact Salk, you can get a list of owners that will let people come to their homes and audition speakers. But, since you've eliminated the ST's, I guess this is a moot point.

I would like to suggest EMP 55ti. I have a pair and like them.

EMPtek E55ti Floorstanding Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics

The Philharmonics get great reviews here as well.

Philharmonic Audio

Good luck with your search.
The Philharmonic 2 speakers should fit in your budget, and they're pretty good in my opinion. They measure pretty flat on the design axis, and don't have much appreciable change in response off-axis, making them pretty friendly to wide rooms where the reflections contribute to spaciousness. More typical speakers will have a bit more midrange dip in the off-axis, normally leading to a "more forward" sound in many rooms.

With the optionally stuffed open back mid you can adjust the soundstage and placement a bit to your liking, and the drivers are top notch - a RAAL ribbon tweeter, a very good BG Neo 8 planar midrange, and a well-designed SB Acoustics 8 inch midbass with a demodulation ring which with a 80hz crossover can tank a few hundred watts. My Marantz SR6003 receiver has no difficulty driving them, and with the Crown XLS2000 amp I really never find myself approaching the limits of the amplifier nor have I heard anything objectionable at very high volumes.

If you liked the Songtowers, Dennis did the crossovers on these too so there should be some similarities in that regard too. But since it's a 3-way with about 75% more displacement and a focus on flux modulation, the sound should on paper be cleaner at high levels. I'd expect them to have more 40-50% more displacement than the dual 5" ascend midbasses too, but I don't know for sure.

That doesn't mean the philharmonics need a sub though. I really liked what I heard running them full range and they extend down to around 30hz which is deeper than the ascend speakers. But I've got a pretty good subwoofer, so it doesn't make sense for me.
The Phils were mentioned often here and at AVS. Dennis Murphy posted in my thread there and told me to contact him, which I plan to do on Monday. if it all works out, I will probably substitute the Phil 2s for the Gallo CL-IV from my original list of 4 contenders. The Phil recommendations were definitely appreciated!

For B&M models, I'd also toss out the NHT Classic Four as being worth a shot. The built in powered subs ought to give it some useful low end, and the top end is effectively the Classic Three, which is pretty good stuff IMO.
Just a thought, these new Legacy Expressions are rated down to 38Hz, +/-2dB, and are in your price range. Might be worth looking into.

Best Price - Legacy Expression

Expression | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems
NHT and Legacy, 2 brands I had not considered. I heard Legacy at RMAF, the new Aeris speaker...awesome! I did not really price out the other speakers, but they seem to be well made and well liked. Thanks for the link.

As far as NHT, I actually own the L5 on wall speakers for my HT setup. I like them for movies but not so much for music. That probably does not mean much in regards to the Four tower, as they are totally different designs. Is the 10" woofer in the Four powered by its own amp (like the Goldenear Tritons) or non powered like the woofers in the SVS ultra towers?

I really appreciate all the opinions. Next week I will start auditioning at local stores and will post some feedback.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Great, it seems like you have a good plan, out of all the Wharfedales IMO the only ones I think are good to stand alone are the OPUS 2-3's, they are not like most towers made today, it seems like most of the new stuff is made to be part of a theater, and made small... Dont get me wrong their are a lot of capable towers that go sound good sub 40hz, but nothing that has an abundant amount of musical bass... The Opus do, and they have 600watts of power handling... And with the prices they are available at rite now {under $3000 vs $7000 msrp} they seem a good place to look for a 2.0 system... Plus they are rather attractive..

 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
As far as NHT, I actually own the L5 on wall speakers for my HT setup. I like them for movies but not so much for music. That probably does not mean much in regards to the Four tower, as they are totally different designs. Is the 10" woofer in the Four powered by its own amp (like the Goldenear Tritons) or non powered like the woofers in the SVS ultra towers?
My mistake; they are non-powered ala the SVS Ultra Towers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My mistake; they are non-powered ala the SVS Ultra Towers.
Although you can actively power the subwoofer of the Classic Four via an outboard XO and amp. :D

IOW, the built-in unpowered subwoofer of the Classic Four is comparable to the external unpowered subs vs the powered subs.

I personally prefer the unpowered subs. :D
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Although you can actively power the subwoofer of the Classic Four via an outboard XO and amp. :D

IOW, the built-in unpowered subwoofer of the Classic Four is comparable to the external unpowered subs vs the powered subs.

I personally prefer the unpowered subs. :D
So, you would set it up like a passive sub, for example a passive JTR Captivator, with an external amp? How do you hook up an external XO?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So, you would set it up like a passive sub, for example a passive JTR Captivator, with an external amp? How do you hook up an external XO?

I would call NHT first to verify, but this is what I think.

Remove the jumper on the binding post of the Four. Now imagine the FOUR as a monitor + a passive/unpowered sub.

One amp (AVR) goes to the HF speaker post of the Four. The SUB output of the AVR goes to the external amp, which then goes to the LF speaker post of the FOUR.
 
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N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
I would call NHT first to verify, but this is what I think.

Remove the jumper on the binding post of the Four. Now imagine the FOUR as a monitor + a passive/unpowered sub.

One amp (AVR) goes to the HF speaker post of the Four. The SUB output of the AVR goes to the external amp, which then goes to the LF speaker post of the FOUR.
Ahh..so you still use the bass management in your AVR to set the crossover. But, you get the benefit of a dedicated amp for the sub. Cool, thanks for the info.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
I auditioned some speakers today at 2 local shops. Figured I would share my impressions.

First I visited Blu-Note, a high end shop. I was hoping to listen to some Paradigm Studio towers, but they just moved into a larger space and are 3-4weeks away from having their showrooms ready. They had a few speakers set up in their waiting room and conference room. One was the Tannoy Precision 6.2 tower (MSRP $2,600). It has a coaxial tweeter/6" midrange and a 6" bass driver. I listened to some of their music, mostly live blues/jazz with prominent vocals. The Tannoys actually sounded very good. Especially their imaging, a real good separation of instruments and a very smooth sound. I was surprised and will probably go back once their place is finished for another listen.

I also heard a pair of Elac bookshelves, I think the BS243 or 244. They are a German company I had never heard of. The price on those was $2,200 but he said they make a tower pair that goes for $2,800. These have ribbon tweeters. Very good sound again, more light and forward than the Tannoys, but vocals were great. I did not really play either very loud to test dynamics and none of the music had any real deep stuff.

Then I went to ListenUp. First off, the salesman basically did agree that they will take a product back within 30 days, so that is good to know.

I listened to 4 sets here, the Triton 2 and 3s and the PSB Synchrony 2 and Imagine T towers. (not the new T2 towers, those they did not have yet, plus they will be $3,500). For these I played some Beethoven Symphony No. 9, 2nd movement.

The first room had the Triton 2s and Synchrony 2s. I noticed that the highs on the Tritons were clear and forward, and they had a nice soundstage. They shined when the track got loud and they filled the room excellently. But, I noticed the bass was not well defined. It kind of rumbled, more like the bass you hear during a movie. When we switched to the Synchrony 2s, the bass notes were clearer and crisper, although less impactful. The PSBs overall sounded a bit better, but were still not 100% my favorite sound. The Triton 3s sounded basically the same as the 2s, although they were in a different room and were way to far apart, almost in the corners, so you could definitely tell that the soundstage was from 2 separate places. Probably for my space, if I went Goldenear, I would get the cheaper Triton 3s ($1,999) vs. the 2s ($2,999). Finally, a brief listen to the Imagine T towers which were similar to the Synchrony 2s. They are actually pretty small and slim towers, the PSB ones, while the Triton 2s are much bigger. FWIW, they are selling the Synchrony 2s on closeout at a steep discount at $2,000 for the pair, but the only pair left is the floor model I listened to. So, those will probably not be around by the time I am ready to buy, not that I would really want a floor model.

Anyway, it was nice to get out. I did reaffirm that I will not be picking a speaker unless I get it in my house to test drive for awhile. Even though the sales guys were super nice and not pushy, it is still awkward to sit there and try to listen while they are standing and waiting. Just not a great way to test. I want to be able to switch lots of tracks, fiddle with volume, move the speakers around...etc.

I may get some more time to audition on Wed or Thurs this week.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, like Dorothy says, there's no place like home. :D

No pressure. A lot more time. 100% control.

That is the ultimate way to audition.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Dennis Murphy and I had a great conversation today and it looks like one of the contenders will be the old-cabinet Philharmonic 2s in black satin finish! Can't wait, but I have to. No time to audition until after the new year, but Dennis was kind enough to hold off shipping til then. That gives me time for some more visits to local shops and time to get the room ready.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Yea. The $2k offer he made you on those is a pretty steep savings from the modern $2900-$3200 cabinets.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Did more auditioning today...thought I would share

Went to 2 stores and actually had more time, spent maybe 2 hrs at the 1st place and 1 at the second. Thursdays are slow, so basically had the whole place to myself. I listened to Beetohoven's 9th, Dire Straits (Walk of Life and Money for Nothing) and U2 (With or Without you and Running to stand still).

First I listened to 2 Martin Logan speakers driven by a McIntosh Integrated amp, the Motion 40($2,000/pr) and Electromotion ESL ($2,200/pr). Definitely preferred the ESL. I have not heard many electrostatics, but it was impressive in its soundstage and clarity. Bass was also not bad. I definitely noticed the small sweet spot. I was standing when we first started the demo and when I sat down the sound noticeably improved. Motion 40 was meh, so did not spend much time on that, So, overall, I liked the ESL, but then we moved on.
Next was Kef vs. Paradigm. Unfortunately, was not a totally fair fight, b/c they had the Kef R700 vs. the Paradigm Studio 60. A better fight is the Studio 60 vs. the R500 or the Studio 100 vs. the R700. Anyway, I at first liked the Paradigm. It got loud, had a nice, open sound to the highs, and powerful bass for a not so huge speaker. But, after switching to the R700, I realized that, while all the sounds were there on the Paradigm, they were much richer and fuller on the Kef. The Studio 60 was like a hot chick that grabs your attention and you are attracted to, but after dating awhile, well, not much substance there, if you know what i mean. rolleyes.gif

The R700 really sounded good. Great midrange sound and powerful, full range bass. The highs were a bit smoother/recessed vs. the ESL or other ribbons I have heard, but overall, really a great speaker. They are $3600/pr while the R500s are $2,600/pr. He offered me the floor model R700 for $2,900, but it has a pretty noticeable area of cosmetic damage, so I declined. Plus, I want to keep looking.

I also listened to the Kef Blades powered by the top of the line McIntosh monoblock amps. We A/B compared the Blades to the R700s. (It is kinda cool that the Uni-Q driver in the R700 looks exactly like the Blades driver, although I am sure it is not exactly the same. But, you can definitely see the trickle-down effect right there in front of your eyes.) The blades were way better, but the R700s held their own, and the Blades were not 10x better, but they cost 10x as much.

Then, store number 2 had the Dynaudio DM 3/7 vs. both the Focal 816v and the 826v. They offered me the 826v for $2,375 and the smaller Focal and Dynaudio for just under 2 grand. Anyway, the Dynaudio was powerful, smooth, nothing bad about it, but it did not wow me. I guess I had the same reaction to it as I did to the PSBs I heard last week. But I really liked the Focal 826v. I thought it had great, airy, open highs and also smooth mids and good bass, not quite as powerful or deep as the R700, but enough.

So, now after going to 4 stores, I have liked the Tannoy Precision 6.2, Kef R700 (but I would probably only be able to afford the smaller R500) and the Focal 826v. I am also learning a bit more about what I like. I noticed being drawn to ribbons at RMAF, but I also like bass and rock music/dynamics, which is why the ML ESL maybe was not for me. That is why so far I would probably choose the Focal 826v as it combined the almost ribbon like highs with great mids and bass. I would not pay $3,600 for the R700 over $2,375 for the 826v, but I would love to A/B compare the 826v with the Kef R500s, as they are similarly priced. Once I start getting some of the ID brands into my house after the New Year, I am probably going to try to get the 826v set home to add into the mix.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
As an update Dennis does what Salk does and offers a 14 day in home trial for standard finishes. Depending on where you live there may be Phil owners willing to have you over to do an audition.

As Walter mentioned I had him over to audition my Phil 3's and I've also had Alex monkey man over as well. Both seemed to really like them. Definitely talk to Dennis, he can steer you in the right direction (no matter if that direction is towards the Phils or not).

I only skimmed this thread, but it seems that one of the major points brought up is that lack of a sub. Obviously the Phil 2's won't have the same bass output of the 3's, but even 80% of what the 3's can do would still be impressive, especially from a single 8" driver. I've done a fair amount of auditioning of speakers that are close in price range to the Phils from B&M stores, both floor standers and bookshelves and none of them can do what my Phils do.

If you want, definitely get in touch with Dennis and see if he can hook you up with an owner to check them out if a trial isn's possible/worth what it would cost for you.

On the B&M side Totems were some of my favorites. I forget the exact model, but they impressed me more than the B&W 80whatever's were planted right next to them (sorry ADTG :D) If possible you may want to check those out.

Good luck and have fun.
 
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