150hz or 80hz?

[ineedagirl69]

hi guys i have a question about my system..... i have a onlyo 705 with definitive technolygy procinema800 sytem. so anyway i ran my onkyo's audeyssey automatic setup, and they set my mains and my surround to 150hz. is that right? i thought they had to at 80hz. can anybody help me with this, thanks..........if you guys want to know the specs of my system go to definitivetechnology.com,and look up the procinima 800 system. i cant post links cause this is my first post.

 

[Highbar]

That's quite high in my opinion, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to localize a good amount of bass like voice and the such that should be coming from the center speaker. The crossover doesn't have to be set down at 80Hz, it can be anything that you like. I would suggest setting it around 100Hz and then playing with it up and down to see what works best for you.

I have a slight gap around 100Hz in my setup but that's because the little JBL's just can't go low enough to match the sub without localizing male voices and the such. I'd rather the slight dip in volume then the annoyance of hearing male voice from the floor next to my TV.

Overall play around and see what you like.

T

PS: I hope all of that made sense I'm watching the Phantom Menace as I type.

 

[ineedagirl69]

well the speakerss i got have a 4.5" woofer, and just like you i also hear voices comming from the sub with the crossover at 150hz. so should i bring them down to 80? or 100.and with the size of my woofer, should i even have it at 80hz?

 

[Highbar]

Your speakers have bigger woofers then mine (3.5's) and I still have mine set at 100. It's going to be up to your ear what you like the best. Like I said I would drop it to at least 100 and see if you like that and then play with it a little and see if you can tweek it anymore to your liking. If you asked the majority of the people in this forum I'm sure they would tell you that they've spent hours setting up their system just the way they like it. I know I have. Play around with some settings and see what happens.

T

 

[mike c]

I agree with the others, 80 or 100 ... but definitely not 150hz.

I've had 3" driver satellites run at 90hz.

 

[Davemcc]

Your center/sats reach down to 47/57Hz. You are OK to run the crossover at the normal 80Hz.
http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/procinema/procinema_800.html

 

[biguns]

I would be very suprised if those speakers can actually produce anything useful at 47 hz from a single 4.5" woofer. A properly designed 6.5" woofer would struggle at those levels. 47 hz. @ -10dB ????

100 hz. is probably the lowest I would imagine you could get away with. The problem with a satellite setup is either you end up with hole in your bass around 100 hz., or you set the crossover where it needs to be (120-140 hz?) and bass gets too localized.

 

[Davemcc]

I would be very suprised if those speakers can actually produce anything useful at 47 hz from a single 4.5" woofer. A properly designed 6.5" woofer would struggle at those levels. 47 hz. @ -10dB ????

100 hz. is probably the lowest I would imagine you could get away with. The problem with a satellite setup is either you end up with hole in your bass around 100 hz., or you set the crossover where it needs to be (120-140 hz?) and bass gets too localized.

Hogwash.....

 

[biguns]

From my experience, that is generally the case, and I have yet to see a 4" woofer that extends below 50 hz (or 60 for that matter). The specs are useless and can be fabricated to say whatever they want them to. Just like all those 100w/channel amps...

I would love to see the frequency graph for those Def Techs that supposedly extend to 57 hz. I could be wrong, but I have never heard a driver that size that did anything useful below 100 hz without the aid of a sub.

 

[Davemcc]

From my experience,

Then you need more experience. This isn't about a speaker reaching below 60Hz. It's about reaching a crossover point at 80Hz. There is absolutely no basis for stating that smaller speakers can't reach below 100Hz, especially from a reputable builder. That's just plain nonsense. The 4" driver of the Era D4 has amazing bass and no doubt does every bit of it's 58Hz rating. With the 5" driver on my Era D5, they have better bass than my Dynaudio Focus 140 with it's 6.5" woofer and I have run a 60Hz crossover with no problem. In fact, the designer of these speakers recommends crossing them over lower than 80Hz.

BTW, that 6.5" in the Dynaudio is rated to 41Hz, I just prefer the way the bass in the D5 sounds.

 

[biguns]

You are right, it is about reaching a crossover point. And it will depend on the slope of the crossover (dB/octave) in the receiver. On systems with a slow rolloff, a lower crossover is certainly more likely to work well. The whole thing is very system dependant and should be based on how it sounds. Preferably with a setup disc and a SPL meter.

I do not doubt that there are 4" drivers that can produce decent bass output. I am not familiar with the speakers you mention, but would imagine they are quite expensive if they do that, and not comparable to the Def Techs in question. Def Tech makes nice speakers, but the satellites (less than 5" driver) I have heard are lacking in the low end regardless of what the specs say. Again 57 hz. @ -2 db? -4 dB? They don't say.... Common marketing ploy.

Regardless, the whole thing is academic anyhow. Just set the crossover how it sounds best.

 

[Exit]

I have Klipsch surround speakers with a 4" woofer rated to 70 Hz. I tend to believe Klipsch's ratiings. Some of their other surrounds did not go that deep and the ones that went lower generally had a bigger woofer. I use an 80 Hz crossover frequency but I have not had a chance to make manual measurements of SPL at the crossover range. Right now it sounds pretty good. I have YAPO and a parametric equalizer to get everthing right.

 

[ineedagirl69]

ok thanks guys, im gonna do a test with some movie's to see how it sounds at 80hz and 100hz. now when people say you could have a dip in the response, can you actually hear it? what should i be looking for? cause it seems like what ever i set the crossover to they all sound the same.............and if you go to the deftech website and look for the review's, they have a graph with the frequency response of my speakers(if someone can find it and post it here that would nice, cause i cant post links yet) and the test they did came out with my speakers going down to only 120hz i dont know how they did the test or with what spl meter, but thats a bit of a shocker. seeing how in the specs they rate going down to 57hz........any idea's?

 

[Exit]

Here is a musical frequency chart so you can see what musical instruments and vocals are at your crossover frequency. As you can see 80 Hz is just below the vocal range. Its good not to have vocals comming from the subwoofer.

http://www.har-bal.com/frequency.php

 

[ineedagirl69]

I just got off the phone with deftech, and the guy said 150hz is to high, and the onkyo could be wrong. and that the response starts starts to drop off at around 100hz. he said 90hz or 100hz will blend well with the sub being at 150hz.........what do you guys think?

 

[Exit]

If you are going to set the crossover that high, then you should consider sitting the subwoofer near the mains/center channels so the vocals sound more like they are coming from the same source. It could be weird sounding if you put they subwoofer some distance away and you heard vocals for a singer or actor coming from two different parts of the room. The human ear’s hearing is naturally most sensitive to the vocal range

 

[biguns]

I just got off the phone with deftech, and the guy said 150hz is to high, and the onkyo could be wrong. and that the response starts starts to drop off at around 100hz. he said 90hz or 100hz will blend well with the sub being at 150hz.........what do you guys think?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1852/test-bench-definitive-technology-procinema-800-home-theater-speaker-system.html

That looks like a realistic setup for these speakers. Crossover is probably set @ 100 hz, which is why the speakers do not meet their stated range (which I doubt they could meet anyhow.) in the graph. The dip shown could be minimized, but there are trade offs involved due to the limited bass extension of the 4" drivers. The dip at 1000 hz. is odd....

I am assuming that a crossover is being used when creating that graph. If not, the frequency range is worse than I would have thought for the 4" drivers.

1) set crossover at 125 hz or so, and in doing so live with the localization of some bass at sub. In this case the dip should be flattened out some.

2) set crossover at 100 hz or so, to minimize localization effects, and deal with the compromise of a dip in the response.

Your choice really. The frequency dip will not be as apparent with movies, but very apparent with music. The best way to do this is with a home theater setup DVD with test tones. You can very easily use this to discern dips in the response and tweak your system accordingly. I use the Video Essentials disc. Avia is also popular.

 

[ineedagirl69]

If you are going to set the crossover that high, then you should consider sitting the subwoofer near the mains/center channels so the vocals sound more like they are coming from the same source. It could be weird sounding if you put they subwoofer some distance away and you heard vocals for a singer or actor coming from two different parts of the room. The human ear’s hearing is naturally most sensitive to the vocal range

yea my sub is up front with my mains.and yes i cant tell that thers vocals coming from the sub. the only time that i knew there were voices comming from the sub is when i went up close to it. but everthing does sound like it from the same source.

 

[ineedagirl69]

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1852/test-bench-definitive-technology-procinema-800-home-theater-speaker-system.html

That looks like a realistic setup for these speakers. Crossover is probably set @ 100 hz, which is why the speakers do not meet their stated range (which I doubt they could meet anyhow.) in the graph. The dip shown could be minimized, but there are trade offs involved due to the limited bass extension of the 4" drivers. The dip at 1000 hz. is odd....

I am assuming that a crossover is being used when creating that graph. If not, the frequency range is worse than I would have thought for the 4" drivers.

1) set crossover at 125 hz or so, and in doing so live with the localization of some bass at sub. In this case the dip should be flattened out some.

2) set crossover at 100 hz or so, to minimize localization effects, and deal with the compromise of a dip in the response.

Your choice really. The frequency dip will not be as apparent with movies, but very apparent with music. The best way to do this is with a home theater setup DVD with test tones. You can very easily use this to discern dips in the response and tweak your system accordingly. I use the Video Essentials disc. Avia is also popular.

I have them at 90hz, i guess they sound ok. Ill try what you said and see what happens............so 80hz is out of the question?

 

[biguns]

I have them at 90hz, i guess they sound ok. Ill try what you said and see what happens............so 80hz is out of the question?

Nothing is out of the question. You set them up how they sound best to YOU. Again, a test disc would be VERY helpful for this. Otherwise it is a lot of trial and error.

If it was me.... I like to keep freq. response as flat as possible. With your speakers this is best accomplished with a higher crossover point, 80 is likely too low. Start at 80 and move it up 10 hz at a time until you find what you like best. Once you can localize the bass effects in the sub, the crossover is too high. I would also want to keep the crossover below 125 hz if at all possible. But again, you need to do what sounds best to you.