Denon AVR-1611 blowing PSB Alpha Series (LR1/CLR1) Speakers

Twinbird · Jan 12, 2011

Hello,

I recently purchased a Denon AVR-1611 receiver with a PSB Alpha 5.1 system. Before I begin, below are some specs for these items:

AVR-1611

Power Amplifier Rated Output:

Front / Surround / Surround Back:

75W + 75W (8Ω, 20Hz - 20kHz with 0.08% T.H.D.)
110W + 110W (6Ω, 1kHz with 0.7% T.H.D.)

Center:

75W (8Ω, 20Hz - 20kHz with 0.08% T.H.D.)
110W (6Ω, 1kHz with 0.7% T.H.D.)

Output Connectors: 6-16Ω

Power Consumption: 450W

PSB Alpha HT1 Series

Alpha LR1 (Compact Monitor)
Sensitivity: 88dB
Impedance: 4Ω (minimal) / 6Ω (nominal)
Input Power: 15-80W (recommend) / 60W (program)

Alpha CLR1 (Center/Monitor)
Sensitivity: 89dB
Impedance: 6Ω (minimal) / 8Ω (nominal)
Input Power: 15-80W (recommend) / 60W (program)

SubSeries 1 (Powered Subwoofer)
Amplifier Power - Internal
Continuous: 110W
Dynamic: 140W
Peak: 280W

I am really a noob when it comes to speakers / audio. When I bought these, I though, hey, the amp is rated at 75W per channel and the speakers are rated at 80W, so the speakers can handle anything the amp throws at them. Well, I had a party, blasting music all night, and the next morning, all my spekaers (excluding sub) were dead

. (The speakers have been replaced now). I do not want to blow them again, but I am not sure what happend the first time. I want to listen to music as loud as I can without my speakers being blown. I had the volume above 0dB on the amp (it was loud). How could this blow my speakers though, and why was my sub still in good shape?

If the volume is at 0dB on the amp, does that mean it is supplying 75W of power to the speakers, and anything above that would supply more power and possibly damage my speakers? I've done some reading, but I still don't understand what impedance is and what it means. For the amp's output ratings it gives me two power ratings with different impedance values: 75W @ 8Ω and 110W @ 6Ω. If I lower the impedance, I can output more power to my speakers but it is less stable?

I have read that the amp should have a rated output about 10% greater than the speakers rated input power. Wouldn't this provide too much power and cause the speakers to blow? Also, what does x% T.H.D stand for?

Thank you for reading my post. This is a great forum with lots of good information. I appreciate any help. Please keep the math to a minimum (still finishing gr. 12 physics

) and be as noob-friendly as you can

. Thank you very much!

3db · Jan 13, 2011

I'm not sure what teh 0db setting is on a Denon but thats not really important. You fried your PSBs because you pushed your receiver to hard and it ran out of power. Once an amp runs out of power, it begins to clip the signal and it sends what is essentially a rounded square wave to the speakers. This will cause severe overheating of the voice coils, espsically tweeters as their wire is much thinner than that of a midrange/woofer. It will alos play havoc on the coils of the crossover filter. I also suspect that this causes the driver to over extend causing damagae to the motor portion of the driver. Best rule of thumb, never push your amp/receiver much past half way.

M Code · Jan 13, 2011

The 1611 is built by Sherwood for Denon and has inflated power output ratings. The spec sheet says 75W/CH but with all channels driven it drops down to about 20W/CH..

Therefore the point to be careful about is to not drive the 1611 into clipping distortion, clipping distortion can/will destroy any loudspeaker.

Just my $0.02..

rnatalli · Jan 13, 2011

M Code said:
The 1611 is built by Sherwood for Denon and has inflated power output ratings. The spec sheet says 75W/CH but with all channels driven it drops down to about 20W/CH..

No more than anyone else. In fact, Denon usually does quite well on the bench compared to the majority. However, the 1611 took a substantial power drop compared to the 1610 and can only do about 25wpc with 7 channels driven whereas the 1610 could get up to about 50wpc with 5 channels driven.

anamorphic96 · Jan 13, 2011

Twinbird said:
Hello,

I recently purchased a Denon AVR-1611 receiver with a PSB Alpha 5.1 system. Before I begin, below are some specs for these items:

AVR-1611

PSB Alpha HT1 Series

I am really a noob when it comes to speakers / audio. When I bought these, I though, hey, the amp is rated at 75W per channel and the speakers are rated at 80W, so the speakers can handle anything the amp throws at them. Well, I had a party, blasting music all night, and the next morning, all my spekaers (excluding sub) were dead . (The speakers have been replaced now). I do not want to blow them again, but I am not sure what happend the first time. I want to listen to music as loud as I can without my speakers being blown. I had the volume above 0dB on the amp (it was loud). How could this blow my speakers though, and why was my sub still in good shape?

If the volume is at 0dB on the amp, does that mean it is supplying 75W of power to the speakers, and anything above that would supply more power and possibly damage my speakers? I've done some reading, but I still don't understand what impedance is and what it means. For the amp's output ratings it gives me two power ratings with different impedance values: 75W @ 8Ω and 110W @ 6Ω. If I lower the impedance, I can output more power to my speakers but it is less stable?

I have read that the amp should have a rated output about 10% greater than the speakers rated input power. Wouldn't this provide too much power and cause the speakers to blow? Also, what does x% T.H.D stand for?

Thank you for reading my post. This is a great forum with lots of good information. I appreciate any help. Please keep the math to a minimum (still finishing gr. 12 physics ) and be as noob-friendly as you can . Thank you very much!

1. As stated above you fried your speakers by over driving your amplifier and causing it to clip.
2. You shouldn't be throwing parties with those small little speakers and you should have been able to hear the speakers distorting and bottoming out. The receiver is also not powerful enough for parties either. Especially when driving all the speakers at the same time.
3. Sounds like you did not properly set things up. You should use the bass management in the receiver to cross the PSB's over at around 100 to 120hz. Then let the sub do the rest.
4. Have you tried the Audyssey system in your receiver. It will do the entire set up for you if properly done. Aside form a couple of tweaks it will do everything. Why don't you try running it and get back to us with the settings.

jostenmeat · Jan 13, 2011

I am sure the receiver is very limited in what it can do, but I think I should point out that the speakers are also very limited. When people see PSB, they think of good value, high performance, but they also might not realize that they actually make some puny lifestyle speakers like the LR1s.

4 3/4 x 7 1/4 x 6 3/8
4.1 lb/each
3 1/2" woofer

I've seen a lot of computer speakers that are bigger.

OP, you have no business using this system the way you are. This is ridiculous.

If you up the budget considerably, and/or are willing to make speakers/subs, people here can find you more for your money, in terms of power and power handling.

3db · Jan 13, 2011

For parties, I would suggest something like Cerwin Vega's which have a really high sensitivity meaning it takes very little pwoer to make em sing very loud. They are not accurate in any sense but then again, who listens to music critically during a party? Nothing beats CV for this role. Save your PSBs for critical listening and let the Cerwins rock your house.

M Code · Jan 13, 2011

rnatalli said:
No more than anyone else. In fact, Denon usually does quite well on the bench compared to the majority. However, the 1611 took a substantial power drop compared to the 1610 and can only do about 25wpc with 7 channels driven whereas the 1610 could get up to about 50wpc with 5 channels driven.

Very EZ to calculate the output power for the Denon/Sherwood series, the constraint is the available power supply VA. It can only support a total of 150W of output power in any channel configuration. Note that this is into an 8 Ohm load, also since the power supply is loosely regulated the peak power is pretty good and works best with high sensitivity, 8 Ohm loudspeakers..
One should avoid using the 1611 with low impedance, low sensitivity loudspeakers.

The below qwick power calculation will better help you understand its capabilities. Note that some units may be a little higher or lower due to production component tolerances.

For example..

1. 150W/CH x 1channel driven
2. 75W/CH x 2 channels driven
3. 37.5W/CH x 4 channels driven
4. 30W/CH x 5 channels driven
5. 21.5W/CH x 7 channels driven

Just my $0.02...

M Code · Jan 13, 2011

rnatalli said:
No more than anyone else. In fact, Denon usually does quite well on the bench compared to the majority. However, the 1611 took a substantial power drop compared to the 1610 and can only do about 25wpc with 7 channels driven whereas the 1610 could get up to about 50wpc with 5 channels driven.

Really depends upon the brand and their respective amplifier design approach..
For example, check out Harman/Kardon, NAD or Rotel and you will find that their typical power output yields are significantly better. For a brand such as Denon which is fighting hard for big-box retailer AVR market share vs. Onkyo & Yamaha, every electrical overdesign is an added cost and they have stripped these out.

Just my $0.02..

Twinbird · Jan 13, 2011

Thanks for the great replies everyone! From what I can understand, I will need to get a more powerful amp (to avoid clipping, which can easily damage my speakers) or keep the volume much lower. I can also get speakers with a higher sensitivity but compromise accuracy.

I don't want to spend more than about $1500 on my setup. I thought the Denons and PSBs were a very good match but apparently I am wrong. jostenmeat, if I can make much better speakers for the same price as buying new, complete ones, that would be awesome

. If you can get me started with this I would very much appreciate it. Also, if anyone has links to noob-friendly articles about speakers and amps, please post them here, I am just starting out with this stuff and would love to get more knowledgeable.

anamorphic96, I ran the Audyssey setup a few times (I did this before blowing my speakers as well). What specific settings would you like me to post?

jostenmeat · Jan 13, 2011

Twinbird said:
Thanks for the great replies everyone! From what I can understand, I will need to get a more powerful amp (to avoid clipping, which can easily damage my speakers) or keep the volume much lower. I can also get speakers with a higher sensitivity but compromise accuracy.

I don't want to spend more than about $1500 on my setup. I thought the Denons and PSBs were a very good match but apparently I am wrong. jostenmeat, if I can make much better speakers for the same price as buying new, complete ones, that would be awesome . If you can get me started with this I would very much appreciate it. Also, if anyone has links to noob-friendly articles about speakers and amps, please post them here, I am just starting out with this stuff and would love to get more knowledgeable.

anamorphic96, I ran the Audyssey setup a few times (I did this before blowing my speakers as well). What specific settings would you like me to post?

If you have the tools available to you, then heck yeah you can get great value by building. I am aiming to build the ER18, which is a mass loaded transmission line speaker, using a vertical MTM array. A pair costs about $550 in parts, not including wood. It uses woofers from the greatly respected SEAS company from Norway.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531

An array of designs that people talk a lot about here are by Zaph:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

A huge bang for buck sub build is the Tuba HT, run a search. It's so darn efficient even a modest amp will bring your house down, and yet it's supposed to have very high SQ as well. Pay $15 for the plans.

A less expensive speaker build might be the TriTrix.
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/tritrix/index.cfm

rnatalli · Jan 13, 2011

M Code said:
Very EZ to calculate the output power for the Denon/Sherwood series, the constraint is the available power supply VA. It can only support a total of 150W of output power in any channel configuration.

Where are you getting the 150W from? The draw of the 1611 is 350W. Assuming 50% efficiency, I get:

1 Channel = 175W
2 Channels = 87.5W
5 channels = 35W
7 channels = 25W

Is what your saying specific to the amp design?

M Code said:
Really depends upon the brand and their respective amplifier design approach..
For example, check out Harman/Kardon, NAD or Rotel and you will find that their typical power output yields are significantly better.

HK has always rated their amps honestly and even underrated them at times, but I'm not convinced the newest HK receivers follow this philosophy. Shame really. If HK receivers weren't so buggy and used a better EQ system, I wouldn't buy anything else.

anamorphic96 · Jan 13, 2011

Did you run Audyssey for all six positions and follow the positioning diagram. Using a mini tri-pod makes this much easier and gets you more accurate results.

What did it set the speaker levels to for each channel ?

What did it set the distance setting to ? Are they accurate ? The sub may be off but Audyssey is compensating for the delay presented by the subs amp/crossover. So don't worry to much about this. Especially if the other ones look good.

What did it set the crossover point at with each speaker ?

Where is the volume set on the sub itself ? Where is the crossover set on the sub. It should be turned all the way up or bypassed.

3db · Jan 13, 2011

rnatalli said:
HK has always rated their amps honestly and even underrated them at times, but I'm not convinced the newest HK receivers follow this philosophy. Shame really. If HK receivers weren't so buggy and used a better EQ system, I wouldn't buy anything else.

NAD is another company that is conservative with their power specs.

M Code · Jan 13, 2011

rnatalli said:
Where are you getting the 150W from? The draw of the 1611 is 350W. Assuming 50% efficiency, I get:

1 Channel = 175W
2 Channels = 87.5W
5 channels = 35W
7 channels = 25W

Is what your saying specific to the amp design?

Denon's published power output spec for the 1611 is 75W/CH x 2 (2 channels driven) = 150W
Next question..

HK has always rated their amps honestly and even underrated them at times, but I'm not convinced the newest HK receivers follow this philosophy. Shame really. If HK receivers weren't so buggy and used a better EQ system, I wouldn't buy anything else.

HK uses a different design approach with a heavier power supply regulation, they will never win the stretched BS wattage game.. The basic thing with HK is that one gets a great sounding amplifier even with their entry level models, as they use the same device topology and simply increase the respective power supply rails. The 54 series had issues, but we have installed many, many 2600's & 3600's without issues. Also they have provided a gratis firmware update to HDMI 1.4..

Just my $0.02...

PENG · Jan 13, 2011

M Code said:
Really depends upon the brand and their respective amplifier design approach..
For example, check out Harman/Kardon, NAD or Rotel and you will find that their typical power output yields are significantly better. For a brand such as Denon which is fighting hard for big-box retailer AVR market share vs. Onkyo & Yamaha, every electrical overdesign is an added cost and they have stripped these out.

Just my $0.02..

Sure, but on $/real W HK and NAD typically do worse but they do typically yield more tested watts than spec watts because they spec their outputs lower while others spec their output higher. At the end of day you get what you pay for.

PENG · Jan 13, 2011

M Code said:
HK uses a different design approach with a heavier power supply regulation, they will never win the stretched BS wattage game

At a given price they will never win the real lab measured output power either. They only win in terms of measured output vs spec'ed output.

IMHO that is almost silly. Take a Denon 3808, pretend specs say 90W per channel, same as that spec'ed for a similarly priced HK. Then find out the Denon tested at something like 150W into 8 ohms, 230W into 4 ohms 2 channel, 120W 5 channels, 115W ACD and everyone will say what a stout amp, better than the 90W HK that tested 120W 2 channel driven, 85W ACD.

So they all play games, one does it in a humble way to give people a nice surprise, the other BS people to make the less informed feel good. At the end, it is still the one who get more measured watts per dollar wins. And in that sense those who bought HK cannot win (in terms of power per dollar only). I don't know why simple math like this seems so hard to people to understand.

PENG · Jan 13, 2011

M Code said:
For example..

1. 150W/CH x 1channel driven
2. 75W/CH x 2 channels driven
3. 37.5W/CH x 4 channels driven
4. 30W/CH x 5 channels driven
5. 21.5W/CH x 7 channels driven

Just my $0.02...

You seem to assume the unit is only power supply limited. Based on many review lab measurements I have seen, many HK and NAD amps are actually more so amplifier limited than power supply limited, while the opposite seems to be true for Yamaha AVRs. Example: at a given price point, the HK model would likely put out the same or more watts in ACD than the Yamaha, but in 1and 2 channel driven, especially into 4 ohms the Yamaha will almost win by a wide margin every time. I provided links to HTM, HCC, S&V lab measurements in the past so I am not going by just saying.

Another point, let me beat 3 dB to this, your figures do not factor in amp efficiencies at different load, power factor (cosine of phase angle between voltage and current phasors, impedance characteristics etc.) As a rule of thumb okay.

just my 0.0001c

PENG · Jan 13, 2011

jostenmeat said:
I am sure the receiver is very limited in what it can do, but I think I should point out that the speakers are also very limited. When people see PSB, they think of good value, high performance, but they also might not realize that they actually make some puny lifestyle speakers like the LR1s.

4 3/4 x 7 1/4 x 6 3/8
4.1 lb/each
3 1/2" woofer

I've seen a lot of computer speakers that are bigger.

I guarantee if he had given those "compact" speakers enough watts by cranking up the way he did but with a big NAD or HK7550 he would still have killed them. In fact I bet he would have silent those speakers well before the party ended. As I said before people often jump on the too little power blowing speakers band wagon when in some cases (such as in the hands of this OP) too much power can also blow speakers. In this case those little guys probably can take 80W peak but not continuous.

3db · Jan 13, 2011

PENG said:
At a given price they will never win the real lab measured output power either. They only win in terms of measured output vs spec'ed output.

IMHO that is almost silly. Take a Denon 3808, pretend specs say 90W per channel, same as that spec'ed for a similarly priced HK. Then find out the Denon tested at something like 150W into 8 ohms, 230W into 4 ohms 2 channel, 120W 5 channels, 115W ACD and everyone will say what a stout amp, better than the 90W HK that tested 120W 2 channel driven, 85W ACD.

So they all play games, one does it in a humble way to give people a nice surprise, the other BS people to make the less informed feel good. At the end, it is still the one who get more measured watts per dollar wins. And in that sense those who bought HK cannot win (in terms of power per dollar only). I don't know why simple math like this seems so hard to people to understand.

I agree with you that the whole industry plays games. That being said, the dollars/watt is not the only measure in which people purchase receivers and it should not be the only measure either. Yet you keep coming back to that same old ratio. If I had the money, I would by a NAD over all others because of my past experience with them at a friends house. It was an integrated amp but that was the most dynamic little integrated amp I've ever heard including those frfom Rotel, Yamaha, and Sansui.

Denon AVR-1611 blowing PSB Alpha Series (LR1/CLR1) Speakers

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