Where are all you experts now?

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
You T/S disciples are digging yourself into a hole.
And someone is wasting their breath. It's like going to a mosque to preach the gospel.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
This seems to be the bottom line
1. Someone is making subs and speakers
2. Said someone is making claims
3. Said someone needs credible 3rd party measurements
4. Marks rule number 2
5. I will never buy an I-pod/portable speaker system dock

edit: Not that there is anything wrong with that
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
This seems to be the bottom line
1. Someone is making subs and speakers
2. Said someone is making claims
3. Said someone needs credible 3rd party measurements
4. Marks rule number 2
5. I will never buy an I-pod/portable speaker system dock

edit: Not that there is anything wrong with that
6. Where is my beer?
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Two women figure very prominently in your life.
By Thursday of next week, good fortune will smile upon you. :)
Please tell me they're Asian.
On Thursday I think I can get rid of my wife; I'll send her to see a play in NYC or something.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, I can explain that. Ohms law dictates current flow. With Thiele/Small, when amplifier power is delivered, the change in impedance will cause different current deliveries. Follow Ohm’s law for power (P=E²/R) to determine power transfer to the woofer. Compute the power delivery over the entire 10-100Hz range of the subwoofer. Notice that T/S will not control the SW but instead the woofer is controlling itself… hence the boominess.
But what was asked was about the measured sound in the room. What you are answering seems to be about the mechanics of moving the driver. Perhaps I missed how you made that answer the question.

The phase curve with ETL illustrates that it never crosses zero until driver resonance; e.g., above the SW range. This is an intrinsic indication of sound quality. The several zero crossings of T/S indicate a lack of quality due to resonance.
Driver resonance, cabinet resonance, room resonance, cone resonance. What resonance are you discussing?

These curves have never been produced by any alignment known to man – they are not “bogus” and they cannot be faked. Don’t rely on “flat” frequency response curves for an indication of quality loudspeaker sound reproduction… they’re really meaningless on their own.
So I can't assume that a loudspeaker that produces a 1w 100Hz signal 10db louder than a 1w 110w signal will have distortion when playing a sound that covers both 100db and 110db?

I may be a layman, but I have used an EQ before and heard the effect.

See Sean Olive’s article, “What loudspeaker specifications are relative to sound quality?” http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html. Olive says, “Current industry loudspeaker specifications are woefully inadequate in characterizing the sound quality of the loudspeaker. The commonly quoted '20 Hz - 20 kHz, +- 3 dB' single-curve specification is a good example. Floyd Toole made the observation that there is more useful performance information on the side of a tire ...compared to what’s currently found on most loudspeaker spec sheets…”
I did.. then I looked up what he uses to measure speakers (http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2008/12/part-3-relationship-between-loudspeaker.html) it's an FR chart.

He seems to be discussing the fact that off-axis performance turns out to be a major concern. He's right.

Why didn't you put up the same charts (multiple FR on and off-axis) as Sean Olive showing your speakers superior off-axis performance? It confuses me that you would put up one you think is not useful when useful ones exist.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Please tell me they're Asian.
On Thursday I think I can get rid of my wife; I'll send her to see a play in NYC or something.
Your reading involves Adams ... not Asians ... but it's still a good time. :)
 
S

skers_54

Full Audioholic
Not Seth

I intended this to be in response to Jerry Love's and Seth=L's interpretation of our graphs but I couldn't find his post. Maybe he deleted it, I dunno. Howsomeever.., what he said was,

"The T/S alignment looks superior to the ETL alignment from the FR graphs you provided. Just like Jerry said in the other thread, the T/S graph is smoother, flatter and less variable. Can you explain that?"

Yes, I can explain that. Ohms law dictates current flow. With Thiele/Small, when amplifier power is delivered, the change in impedance will cause different current deliveries. Follow Ohm’s law for power (P=E²/R) to determine power transfer to the woofer. Compute the power delivery over the entire 10-100Hz range of the subwoofer. Notice that T/S will not control the SW but instead the woofer is controlling itself… hence the boominess.

The phase curve with ETL illustrates that it never crosses zero until driver resonance; e.g., above the SW range. This is an intrinsic indication of sound quality. The several zero crossings of T/S indicate a lack of quality due to resonance.

These curves have never been produced by any alignment known to man – they are not “bogus” and they cannot be faked. Don’t rely on “flat” frequency response curves for an indication of quality loudspeaker sound reproduction… they’re really meaningless on their own. See Sean Olive’s article, “What loudspeaker specifications are relative to sound quality?” http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html. Olive says, “Current industry loudspeaker specifications are woefully inadequate in characterizing the sound quality of the loudspeaker. The commonly quoted '20 Hz - 20 kHz, +- 3 dB' single-curve specification is a good example. Floyd Toole made the observation that there is more useful performance information on the side of a tire ...compared to what’s currently found on most loudspeaker spec sheets…”

As far as the complete sound system goes, any amplifier will perform at its best and up to its theoretical capabilities if its impedance curves remain flat. Some amps will actually blow up if they have impedance curves and phase deviations that are too wacky.
So, what you're saying is that an in-room FR curve is not related to sound quality? That's just not an accurate statement. Sean Olive and Floyd Toole made their names comparing frequency response (among other metrics) to listener preferences. The quote you took from Olive's site was in reference to "marketed" FR, which doesn't tell you anything. I'm certain that Olive would say that a full FR graph is very useful in examining sound quality.

From your graphs, it looks like your system is useful in enhancing the bass output of small drivers at the cost of linearity. It also presents a benign impedance allowing for smaller amplifiers to be used. This is fine for iPod docks, and advantageous in some regards. However, I would not buy a sub that measures like yours. The boominess from the several high-amplitude peaks would be a greater afront than any inherent resonance in the traditional alignment (which can be controlled by manipulating Qts).
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You are absolutely right. Please go to the beginning of the thread "Myths about subwoofers" at http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35455&page=4 and then look at "Barely hear movie characters talking" at http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40263&page=6. The links to my site and reviews were posted by other members long before I referenced our products. Even links to where the TBI products could be had was posted by another member, not by me.

I have successfully conveyed that I am not a spammer and am not selling "snake oil" as I was accused of by TLS Guy. Only to add validity to ETL technology have reviewers been cited by me. Others had cited them before I did.

Obviously, I could be banned from this site for the same reasons that were used by those who flamed me and tried to discredit my reputation, technology and products. Unfortunately, my "reputation" icon has been down graded from 3 green blocks to 3 red ones. Why is that? It seems to be a result of spurious comments by members reading my posts that have not agreed with or understood what I am saying. That is an extremely unfair practice, if true. Especially since no attempt to PM me to discuss any problems that I was allegedly creating with some forum members.

TLS Guy threatened to have me banned if I didn't respond to his technical questions within 48 hours! How outrageous was that? I did respond, but only after some exhaustive tests were conducted by our engineers on a subwoofer with and without ETL alignment.

I have tried to be honest and civil in all of my posts. Some members have been outright slanderous in their responses to my posts and comments about my site. But that doesn't seem to have violated forum rules so, I certainly don't think I have.
You'll get no grief from me:) You're allowed to defend your position and product all you want.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
BioLinksAudio AKA Troll said:
I intended this to be in response to Jerry Love's and Seth=L's interpretation of our graphs but I couldn't find his post. Maybe he deleted it, I dunno.
Considering that I never posted a response or interpretation of your graphs I can't understand how I got raked into that demographic, unless you are trolling. In any case, I'm tired of your sniveling.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Considering that I never posted a response or interpretation of your graphs I can't understand how I got raked into that demographic, unless you are trolling.
I thought you were the same guy. :D :p
 
BioLinksAudio

BioLinksAudio

Audioholic Intern
What happened to Myths about subwoofer thread?

You'll get no grief from me:) You're allowed to defend your position and product all you want.
Thanks, that is reasonable. Wouldn't it be nice if all of the forum members had that same attitude? But you have no control over that.

I noticed that the referenced thread has been edited from 80 posts down to half that number; e.g., the last 4 pages have been redacted. Why is that?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I noticed that the referenced thread has been edited from 80 posts down to half that number; e.g., the last 4 pages have been redacted. Why is that?
I'm seeing into the past now ... I see a moderator ... he's deleting all your posts in that thread ... and all the posts related to it ... he looks mad too ... he's thinking that he went through all the trouble to post that thread and make it a sticky only to have it polluted ... he's thinking that he doesn't like banning anybody ... but he wants to hit the monkey with a stick. :eek: :D
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
I hate it when that happens :D

Peace and Serenity,

Forest Man


P.S.- I am an early adopter ... but OP, it is going to be hard to beat SVS's technology and implementation.

P.S.S. -Do you need a public relations or marketing man ? :rolleyes:
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I just read through this whole thread. Wish I could get those 20 minutes back. And now I must read the original sub thread in hopes of justifying that time spent.:mad:
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top