New HT Room

Duffinator said:

I hope you didn't deplete their inventory as I'm about to order some of the 242's in coffee. I wanted to start with 4 but I see the 242's come in packages of 3 so I'll order 6. I know you're a savvy shopper, any other purchasing options besides direct?

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Duffinator said:

I noticed the shipping is $90 for two boxes of 242's, Yikes! I guess they are heavier than I think they should be. My project for the next couple of weeks is to paint my music room and once completed I'll order the panels. I see a box on their order page to enter discounts, now if we can just find the code....

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Companies such as these usually discount when you are buying in bulk. If you bought 2x 3-packs of 242s, that would be what, about $360? For say $185 more, you would get 3 GIK 242s, 4 GIK 244s, and 1 GIK Monster Bass Trap. Even if you didn't care at all for either 244 or Monster Trap, I'm sure they can quote you a discount once you start getting in the double digit area. IMO, if you think you will reach double digit eventually, I would wait until you can save enough to do it all at once.

Room Kit
http://www.gikacoustics.com/order_now.html#room1

I have 242s, 244s (besides a number of Real Traps) and the 244s are definitely beefier, and thus more desirable IMO.

jostenmeat said:

Companies such as these usually discount when you are buying in bulk. If you bought 2x 3-packs of 242s, that would be what, about $360? For say $185 more, you would get 3 GIK 242s, 4 GIK 244s, and 1 GIK Monster Bass Trap. Even if you didn't care at all for either 244 or Monster Trap, I'm sure they can quote you a discount once you start getting in the double digit area. IMO, if you think you will reach double digit eventually, I would wait until you can save enough to do it all at once.

Room Kit
http://www.gikacoustics.com/order_now.html#room1

I have 242s, 244s (besides a number of Real Traps) and the 244s are definitely beefier, and thus more desirable IMO.

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Bulk purchasing can be good as long as it supports a plan. The traps are designed for limited absorption within specific frequency ranges. According to GIK, the only difference between the 244 and 242 is at the lower end adsorption. The 242 is only effective down to 250Hz vs. 125Hz for the 244. If you are trying to resolve issues in the 125-250Hz region then a correctly positioned 244 (usually a corner) would be the better choice.

From the GIK Site:

The GIK 242 ideally is used in combination with all other GIK products. We recommend mounting the GIK 244 Acoustic Panel or Monster Trap in each corner and troubled low-end spots in the room with the GIK 242 mounted at the first and secondary reflection points. This combination is an effective way to fine-tune a room.

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We hobbyists enjoy experimenting and tweaking our systems and room acoustic treatments are just another tool.

If you were to rate how important the benefit of your various upgrades have been, how would it go? Like have room treatments been a 5% gain in performance or a 20% gain? I guess I'm curious if you have felt it is a nudge or a boost or a night and day improvement.

I know the speakers and projector were a big improvement, but, what about the rest? Where have you felt has been money best spent?

Beautiful work on your HT.

MidnightSensi said:

If you were to rate how important the benefit of your various upgrades have been, how would it go? Like have room treatments been a 5% gain in performance or a 20% gain? I guess I'm curious if you have felt it is a nudge or a boost or a night and day improvement.

I know the speakers and projector were a big improvement, but, what about the rest? Where have you felt has been money best spent?

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It is difficult to assign percentages to the many changes that I have made. Certainly, having a dedicated room to make as functionally correct (read ugly) was the biggest factor. Then letting go of the “I want a multifunctional space” mindset was important in getting the room’s performance to where it is now. Going from a sectional couch to powered HT chairs was actually a huge improvement for movie watching.

Of course the speakers and projector made very nice improvements to the audio/video. Getting an SSP with HD audio format support was big, as was a powerful amp. The OPPO BDP-83 has been a very nice and versatile source player and Audyssey and the Velo SMS-1 have allowed me to tweak the rooms FR for optimal SQ.

The acoustic treatments are a work in progress. Yesterday, I sold 4 of the “new” GIK panels shrewdly taking a loss in the process (BTW, how do you like em Rick?) and moved the art diffusers to the back wall. I mounted the diffusers to and repositioned the bass traps that were already there. This is actually along the lines of what Keith Yates told me to do when he was here for the GTG in October. Now, I have a fully treated front wall and the ceiling and back wall are almost there. I still have some "liveness" to theroom with theside walls essentially untreated. I know conventional wisdom is to treat the side wall reflections but Mr. Yates has a different take on this and I'm going with "big brain" on this one.

The Great Grammas have been nice in reducing bass energy transfer to the house (i.e. the room below the HT) and have made the Captivators sound even better.

I am at a stage now where all of these changes are really just experiments so see how much better the room can sound. I guess it’s pretty obvious that I’m more into the audio side of things but I think that is due to the relative stability of audio technology vs. video. Once there are large (110” or so) powered flat panels or affordable and bright LED projectors, I will change my tune.

rmk said:

Yesterday, I sold 4 of the “new” GIK panels shrewdly taking a loss in the process (BTW, how do you like em Rick?)

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I knew Rob would know where I could find a good deal on these panels.

I noticed a difference immediately. As expected the mid bass sounded much cleaner. What surprised me was the deep bass sounds more prominent and the highs sound a tad brighter. Not complaining just noting the differences. I need to spend more time listening to some different music to form my final impressions. Similar to Rob I have a dedicated room but it's used for listening to music only and is much smaller than his. The room also shares space with a piano and a guitar. I presently have the panels tilted up against the wall, two directly behind my speakers and two on the wall directly behind my listening chair on either side of me. I'll play around with positioning on the sides before I paint the room and hang the panels on the walls. I hope to get to the room this week as I have a four day weekend coming up. I think three more panels maybe in order if I can convince my wife that it will look cool having them on the ceiling.

Any suggestions on how high to hang the panels? I was thinking the bottom of the panels would be 4-6" above the 6" baseboards in the room.

BTW, I think the HT chairs in Rob's HT are really cool and would enhance anyone's dedicated HT. His latest speaker setup is amazing and his subs really add that movie theater experience to his setup. I thought his previous Fathom sub setup was spectacular as well.

Duffinator said:

Any suggestions on how high to hang the panels? I was thinking the bottom of the panels would be 4-6" above the 6" baseboards in the room.

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That sounds about right. If you email or call GIK you can get some good, free consulting regarding placement.

rmk said:

The acoustic treatments are a work in progress. Yesterday, I sold 4 of the “new” GIK panels shrewdly taking a loss in the process (BTW, how do you like em Rick?) and moved the art diffusers to the back wall. I mounted the diffusers to and repositioned the bass traps that were already there. This is actually along the lines of what Keith Yates told me to do when he was here for the GTG in October. Now, I have a fully treated front wall and the ceiling and back wall are almost there. I still have some "liveness" to theroom with theside walls essentially untreated. I know conventional wisdom is to treat the side wall reflections but Mr. Yates has a different take on this and I'm going with "big brain" on this one.

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Why did you sell them? Did you feel your room was getting too dead?

Regarding the sidewalls, I read some think it is better to diffuse and others to absorb. I don't see diffusion much on home theater forums, but I do in audiophile magazines. Same goes for front walls. Seems like everyone absorbs the rear and ceiling though.

Have you considered those triangle traps to treat 3-way corners?

The Great Grammas have been nice in reducing bass energy transfer to the house (i.e. the room below the HT) and have made the Captivators sound even better.

I am at a stage now where all of these changes are really just experiments so see how much better the room can sound. I guess it’s pretty obvious that I’m more into the audio side of things but I think that is due to the relative stability of audio technology vs. video. Once there are large (110” or so) powered flat panels or affordable and bright LED projectors, I will change my tune.


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MidnightSensi said:

Regarding the sidewalls, I read some think it is better to diffuse and others to absorb. I don't see diffusion much on home theater forums, but I do in audiophile magazines. Same goes for front walls. Seems like everyone absorbs the rear and ceiling though.

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I have the impression that HTs are typically desired to be more dead than music rooms, if there existed any difference in preferences between the two.

Your observations are a bit different from mine, because the only places I've ever seen diffusion, that I remember, are actually on either the rear wall or ceiling. Diffusors will only properly work when the listener is far away enough from them, and they are considerably more expensive than absorbers (ok, not rmk's perhaps, but at least the ones designed by the well known acoustical companies).

As if rmk didn't give us enough to be jealous about, I have to admit it would be nice to have big brains at my place, and have him/them say oh just do this and you're golden.

MidnightSensi said:

Why did you sell them? Did you feel your room was getting too dead?

Regarding the sidewalls, I read some think it is better to diffuse and others to absorb. I don't see diffusion much on home theater forums, but I do in audiophile magazines. Same goes for front walls. Seems like everyone absorbs the rear and ceiling though.

Have you considered those triangle traps to treat 3-way corners?

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Yes, the room seemed more dead. I had GIK tri-traps but the only true corners I have in the room that will accomidate them are the two the front wall. The Pillar Traps are a nice compromise and more position flexible.

jostenmeat said:

I have the impression that HTs are typically desired to be more dead than music rooms, if there existed any difference in preferences between the two.

Your observations are a bit different from mine, because the only places I've ever seen diffusion, that I remember, are actually on either the rear wall or ceiling. Diffusors will only properly work when the listener is far away enough from them, and they are considerably more expensive than absorbers (ok, not rmk's perhaps, but at least the ones designed by the well known acoustical companies).

As if rmk didn't give us enough to be jealous about, I have to admit it would be nice to have big brains at my place, and have him/them say oh just do this and you're golden.

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Good observation on HT vs. music rooms. Some would say sound is sound but the means and goals are often necessarily different (ex multiple seats vs. one).

Your take of diffusion jibes with what I have read.

Mr. Yates recommendations have been ringing in my ears . He suggested a combo of bass absorption and HF diffusion on the back wall, fully treating the ceiling (although much more aggressively than I have).

Of course, if he was doing the room he would throw it all out and start fresh by carefully measuring the room and them making very specific adjustments to achieve a goal. But in the spirit of working within the existing room and treatments he was kind enough to suggest some relatively simple things that would help. I think he enjoyed seeing how non-professional but serious hobbyists approach audio and HT and I was certainly happy to have his input.

Interesting!

To my intuition, absorption makes the most sense. I would think recordings should have all the desired 'ambiance' and so the room shouldn't add much (if any).

Regardless, the panels look cool in the room. I especially like the rear wall art ones how they are now.

MidnightSensi said:

Interesting!

To my intuition, absorption makes the most sense. I would think recordings should have all the desired 'ambiance' and so the room shouldn't add much (if any).

Regardless, the panels look cool in the room. I especially like the rear wall art ones how they are now.

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Thanks

I have some bass traps coming that fit under the surround back speakers to complete the back wall. The SO just returned from shopping with a large wood painting that we hung on the now blank right wall. If the sun ever comes out again here in sunny California I'll take some pics.

There is a lot going on in there now but it is looking much better than the beige box it was when I first built it.

Some better pics (I cleaned the camera lens). The back wall bass trap diffuser experiment seems to be working out. I am liking what I hear but I'm sure quite a bit of the improved bass SQ is due to the Grammas. I would recommend that product to anyone with subs. I included the pic of the equipment closet mess to show the Wyred for Sound Amps.

Panels and a better look at the riser (you can just see a corner of one of the Danley TH-SPUD's in the back right corner of the riser). The gap there is intentional as that is the location of the horn subs mouth.



Captivators on the Great Grammas & equip closet

I just received the SonoColumn bass traps from Auralex. I think they make for a nice finished look for the S8's Surrounds.

Looking good. I'm taking a break from painting my room and hope to have it finished tomorrow. I'll post pics in my thread when I'm finished.

Those look great! Any comments on how well they work, or too hard to tell?

rmk, subjective question for you. How do you like the DSX heights with music? Gimme both the good and bad. Thanks! I now have no less than 4 different upgrades to my AV stuff on the radar, and a new pre/pro with heights is one of them, lol. Well, really just the pre/pro, but I'm considering the heights too. Talking about Sonos with Midnight has put that back on the radar too, haha.

Oh, more questions regarding heights: I am using a suite of PSB Images for the HT, so with that in mind, how much responsibility is given to the heights in your estimation? The power handling does not have to approach what the mains do I assume. Do they do as little as what I perceive rear speakers do, for instance? (One of the reasons I ask is because I actually use PSB Alpha B1s, little things, for the rears due to the ease of ceiling mounting. Otherwise, to use a larger bookshelf from the Image lineup, I think I'd have to use wood screws right into the back panel of the bookshelves?! ).

I think I've picked out the main differences between the 40.1 and 80.1 SSPs. Of course I'd need the latter if going 9.1, and maintaining the XT. I don't need XLRs, Reon, 3rd zone, etc, so decision won't be easy if it comes down to it.

I now have to research between the 3007 and other receivers, etc, to see how those compare for the price, especially since the amps would indeed help me get the 8th/9th channels.

Thanks much for your time.

MidnightSensi said:

Those look great! Any comments on how well they work, or too hard to tell?

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Thanks, I really can't tell much difference but in running Audyssey (for the umteenth time) I checked the bass FR response for the back row and it was really good. I assume the SonoColumns ghad something to do with that.

jostenmeat said:

rmk, subjective question for you. How do you like the DSX heights with music? Gimme both the good and bad. Thanks! I now have no less than 4 different upgrades to my AV stuff on the radar, and a new pre/pro with heights is one of them, lol. Well, really just the pre/pro, but I'm considering the heights too. Talking about Sonos with Midnight has put that back on the radar too, haha.

Oh, more questions regarding heights: I am using a suite of PSB Images for the HT, so with that in mind, how much responsibility is given to the heights in your estimation? The power handling does not have to approach what the mains do I assume. Do they do as little as what I perceive rear speakers do, for instance? (One of the reasons I ask is because I actually use PSB Alpha B1s, little things, for the rears due to the ease of ceiling mounting. Otherwise, to use a larger bookshelf from the Image lineup, I think I'd have to use wood screws right into the back panel of the bookshelves?! ).

I think I've picked out the main differences between the 40.1 and 80.1 SSPs. Of course I'd need the latter if going 9.1, and maintaining the XT. I don't need XLRs, Reon, 3rd zone, etc, so decision won't be easy if it comes down to it.

I now have to research between the 3007 and other receivers, etc, to see how those compare for the price, especially since the amps would indeed help me get the 8th/9th channels.

Thanks much for your time.

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I understand you reluctance to drill the PSB's. The JTR's are made to be drilled so no issues. I remember being concerned and talking to Jeff about it and he didn't understand my reluctance to put some screws into his speakers. He's like what’s the problem ...That, is a pro audio guys perspective.

Well I am totally impressed by the Height Channels. Based upon some reading I may be the only person thusly impressed but impressed I am. Subjectively, the idea of multichannel music (depending upon the mix) is to give you either an audience or stage perspective of the music. To me, this means a BIG soundstage. With my placement, the Heights make the soundstage wider and taller and the effect is even greater for movies. Honestly, DSX and Dynamic EQ are two of my favorite features ever. They have really pushed my system over the top in terms of audio immersion and sound good even on intimate acoustic stuff. Really very

Getting and AVR to facilitate 9.1 is a great idea. I bought a separate Stereo amp to power the last two channels but with an AVR you could use the sucker as a pre for the first seven, and use the on-board to power the extra channels.

Thanks a lot, rmk. I see that Seth has a 2ch amp for sale, and I could get something like that to add to the pre/pro. Cheers.

rmk, can you tell me about the ceiling mounts you've chosen for the height speakers? If I go through with this, you have already convinced me that I will drill into my speakers! I have to email PSB about where on the back panel it is safer to screw into, and how thick it is, etc. Thanks! (I tell you, finding ceiling mounts for keyhole speakers all seemed to be pretty wimpy from what I saw).

Also, can you PM me about where and how much for the 80.1?

Oh, lastly, I'm sure you don't know, because I don't know if anyone knows, but do you think future 3D video will pass thru just fine with today's pre/pros? I ask, just in case you had a tidbit to share.

Thanks again.

edit: ok, did some research, looks like I have to hold off on pre/pro if 3D is important to me . . . grr