What's in a speaker upgrade...or how high is up?

I'd surely welcome everyone's input on the subjective matter of speaker upgrade. I offer a general example, but many speakers that we talk about and recommend every day here on Audioholics can be used for specifics. Please jump in with your expectations and/or experiences.

If you were to upgrade left and right fronts (for 2-channel music)....from say $1,000 dollar per pair speakers to $2,000 per pair speakers, what sort of qualitative improvements would you expect? More clarity? Then the key question is how much?! More detail? Then how much? More 'air' or separation of instruments in music? How much? More fullness in FR and smoothness in SQ? How much more? Should you be looking at tiny, incremental improvements in sound...like "yeah, that sounds a bit more like a sax", or "WOW", that audio enhancement in all categories is worth double the money!" Or just what should one expect? It seems to me to be truly like the question, "How high is up?" What do you think a doubling in speaker price should buy you?

I personally believe that from 1k to 2k ... diminishing returns have a strangle hold on the improvements you hear. since money's value is relative, I cannot justify a little improvement in SQ for an additional 1k. for other rich dudes however (hopefully me in the future - I plan on getting 12k speakers btw) the little improvement is equal to 1k, why? because there's nowhere else to go but up ... when you've bought everything else.

mike c said:

I personally believe that from 1k to 2k ... diminishing returns have a strangle hold on the improvements you hear. since money's value is relative, I cannot justify a little improvement in SQ for an additional 1k. for other rich dudes however (hopefully me in the future - I plan on getting 12k speakers btw) the little improvement is equal to 1k, why? because there's nowhere else to go but up ... when you've bought everything else.

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Fine ideas. Thanks, Mike. So would you agree with the following then?.....

All speakers color sound from what was naturally produced (impart a 'signature' of sorts). The goal of speaker designers then is to make the transducer 'disappear' as much as possible. More expensive speakers generally offer diminishing returns on the dollar spent toward gaining that transparency. And finally (last but definitely NOT least), speakers in given price ranges generally color sound equally but differently (thereby providing us with our favorite 'color' preferences, e.g. Axiom vs. PSB vs. Paradigm vs. Ascend vs. Phase Tech vs. etc). ???

How much more is relevant to price. For 1000 each, I would go for the Veritas 2.2i's. I think when you upgrade, you need to look at what you want period, not what is "better". Speaker A may have better bass then speaker B, but speaker B has better midrange/treble.

Whats important is what YOU want. This is also why its important to hear as many as you can within your price range, and choose the one that fill the most of your needs(wants ).

The goal of speaker designers then is to make the transducer 'disappear' as much as possible. More expensive speakers generally offer diminishing returns on the dollar spent toward gaining that transparency.

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I don't agree with this. The goal of the speaker designer is to make a speaker that fits his guide lines. If the speaker is supposed to be transparent, then make it so. If warm, make it so etc etc. Also, some people don't prefer transparent, so it CAN'T be every speaker designers goal.

HTH,

SheepStar

Between $1K to $2K, you could be upgrading from Polk RTi to LSi, Paradigm Monitor to Studio, Energy Connoisseur to Veritas, B&W 600 series to 700 series. The difference in sound quality in such a speaker upgrade is huge (relatively speaking) compared to a two channel amplifier upgrade from the $1K to $2K range. From sound quality stand point, you won't even be close to the point of diminishing return in speaker upgrades until you hit the $5K mark.

I might suggest that if you're considering spending money on upgrades that you think in terms of systems rather than speakers. That is, you can never actually hear the speaker, what you actually hear is the complex result of the speaker/room system interaction. I would further suggest that improving this overall system is what you really want to be doing.

That said, in the range of what you're talking about, IMHO you'd get far more bang for the buck from educating yourself about room acoustics and spending that extra thousand dollars treating your room. I did and the results were remarkable... more like going from thousand buck speakers to five grand ones.

I would specifically comment that all the factors you mentioned- air , clarity, separation and such were substantially improved through treating the room.

I agree room acoustic is a huge factor, but I wouldn't down play the difference in sound between speakers in the sub 2K range. If you put two speakers, say one in the $1K range and the other in the $2K range of the same make side by side, you will hear the obvious difference regardless the room acoustic. You may call that difference "voicing", or "sound quality", but they will most likely sound different enough for most people to tell them apart.

Whether you will get more bang for the money spend on room treatment or more expensive speakers(of the same manufacturer), depends on many factors, the outcome may not be same for everyone.

PENG said:

I agree room acoustic is a huge factor, but I wouldn't down play the difference in sound between speakers in the sub 2K range. If you put two speakers, say one in the $1K range and the other in the $2K range of the same make side by side, you will hear the obvious difference regardless the room acoustic. You may call that difference "voicing", or "sound quality", but they will most likely sound different enough for most people to tell them apart.

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True enough, but the more expensive speakers don't always sound better. I spent some time comparing the Sonus Faber 'Grand Piano' which are $5K speakers with their Concerto's which are about $3.5K- to my ears the Concerto's sounded better. I went back twice and asked the store to double check the speaker setup. Identical room and electronics for both. While the GP's had a bit more low bass extension, as you'd expect- the Concerto's had superior imaging, a more solid sound stage, and just more overall 'clarity'. I heard the same thing both times, spending almost two hours in the store and using my own CD's.

Go figure....

Sarius said:

True enough, but the more expensive speakers don't always sound better. I spent some time comparing the Sonus Faber 'Grand Piano' which are $5K speakers with their Concerto's which are about $3.5K- to my ears the Concerto's sounded better. I went back twice and asked the store to double check the speaker setup. Identical room and electronics for both. While the GP's had a bit more low bass extension, as you'd expect- the Concerto's had superior imaging, a more solid sound stage, and just more overall 'clarity'. I heard the same thing both times, spending almost two hours in the store and using my own CD's.

Go figure....

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No disagreement here neither, that's why I stick to the word "different", not "better". Another example, some people think a 3 way bookshelf on stand sound better than floor standing model of the same make except for the bass, others think different. Floor standing speakers generally are more expensive. Are the concerto's book shelves?

PENG said:

No disagreement here neither, that's why I stick to the word "different", not "better". Another example, some people think a 3 way bookshelf on stand sound better than floor standing model of the same make except for the bass, others think different. Floor standing speakers generally are more expensive. Are the concerto's book shelves?

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No... both are floorstanders. The Concerto's are a two-way design with two drivers, the Grand Piano's are a three-way design with four drivers. Here's a link

I might mention that through the years the speakers I've tended to like the best have been three-way floorstanders. Not that I haven't owned others, and I don't seek them out specifically. That is, when I'm in the mode of auditioning new speakers, I leave myself open to whatever's out there. However, more often that not, when all the fruit has shaken off the tree, the one's that I find myself liking the best have been in that configuration. As always, other's milage will vary

rjbudz said:

Fine ideas. Thanks, Mike. So would you agree with the following then?.....

All speakers color sound from what was naturally produced (impart a 'signature' of sorts). The goal of speaker designers then is to make the transducer 'disappear' as much as possible. More expensive speakers generally offer diminishing returns on the dollar spent toward gaining that transparency. And finally (last but definitely NOT least), speakers in given price ranges generally color sound equally but differently (thereby providing us with our favorite 'color' preferences, e.g. Axiom vs. PSB vs. Paradigm vs. Ascend vs. Phase Tech vs. etc). ???

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I don't know how speakers are designed or made ... what I do know are what people are comenting consistently as to "high end" speakers is the "increased detail" in the sound.
perhaps what the 1k speakers (read: transducers) cannot produce is the separation of details or even production of what was intended in the source.

and these 2k and up speakers can simply "produce" more detail. and each particular brand can produce SOME more detail but not ALL which results to having a different "sound" to each other.

well... that's just my theory.

I buy based on aesthetics. (of course don't give me crappy sounding speakers)

mike c said:

I don't know how speakers are designed or made ... what I do know are what people are comenting consistently as to "high end" speakers is the "increased detail" in the sound.
perhaps what the 1k speakers (read: transducers) cannot produce is the separation of details or even production of what was intended in the source.

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Actually, I suggest that anyone interested in 'detail' and a precise soundstage give the Axiom M2's a listen. I've got a pair, and aside from the fact that they made no pretentions at all below about 70 Hz, they'll rival almost anything at any price in terms of detail, image, and such. At $300/pair. They are, in essence the midrange and tweeter of the M60, so should do pretty much everything that rather well thought of speaker does from the mid-bass on up.

When my main music speakers crapped out on me, I initially replaced them with the M2's and listened for a couple of months, so I can claim to know them fairly well. I was very surprised how well instruments like the double bass and tympani came through, and everything up from those were golden.

Sheep....You have a good point. Speakers are designed around trade-offs, so my generalization of design tendency toward 'detail' and 'accuracy' may be off-base. But........ Personally, I'm looking at the speaker price difference between getting a sound "right" and/or getting it "almost right".

Sarius....I agree that the room interaction requires attention. But, it's the philosophy of speaker upgrade that I want to zero in on...not the dollar spent for sound system quality per se. And I agree, too, that there are some speakers out there that may sound better (to individuals) that are cheaper than other not-as-good-sounding speakers. I was generalizing in the interest of brevity (and said "generally"). But your points are well taken!

Peng....You hit at the center of the question. You suggest that 2 grand speakers should sound much better than their 1 grand siblings, at least speakers within manufacturer's lines (like Energy C's vs. Veritas). The only speakers I've really auditioned thoroughly in that vein were Paradigm Monitors vs. Studios. With those I thought the difference was really minimal and the Studio was definitely not worth the extra cabbage. I had to listen very carefully to hear any improvement. Perhaps I should search more deeply within manufacturers' speaker lines for that "worth it" improvement.

I'm still scratchin' my head over this issue.

rjbudz said:

Peng....You hit at the center of the question. You suggest that 2 grand speakers should sound much better than their 1 grand siblings, at least speakers within manufacturer's lines (like Energy C's vs. Veritas). The only speakers I've really auditioned thoroughly in that vein were Paradigm Monitors vs. Studios. With those I thought the difference was really minimal and the Studio was definitely not worth the extra cabbage. I had to listen very carefully to hear any improvement. Perhaps I should search more deeply within manufacturers' speaker lines for that "worth it" improvement.

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and that's exactly my point. OUR value for money is different than PENG's value for money. his 1k difference is minimal for the SQ upgrade over the cheaper 1k speaker. to me, I would need a dramatic improvement that I can hear. (note, I can't hear the difference unless I listen to the speakers one after the other)

rjbudz said:

Sarius....I agree that the room interaction requires attention. But, it's the philosophy of speaker upgrade that I want to zero in on...not the dollar spent for sound system quality per se. And I agree, too, that there are some speakers out there that may sound better (to individuals) that are cheaper than other not-as-good-sounding speakers. I was generalizing in the interest of brevity (and said "generally"). But your points are well taken!

I'm still scratchin' my head over this issue.

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Thanks,

OK.. to focus in on just the upgrade issue. I've found that in every speaker line there seems to be a 'sweet spot' in which upgrading from the speakers below it is a big difference. Above that particular speaker, while upgrading will, in most cases, yield some improvement, it is nowhere near as apparent.

Typically this is somewhere near the middle of the line, but not always. I don't think you can put an absolute dollar value on this, and I've found that price is only a very loose indicator of quality or sonic 'goodness'.

I have also found that while individual design is important, there does seem to be 'family' resemblences between design types.... to my ears metal dome tweeters tend to have a 'brightness' and focus to them while soft domes seem to generically be a bit 'softer' and a bit more 'musical' in comparison. I've noticed this across brands and types.

Similarly, various driver sizes seem to put a stamp on a design. For example, I've noticed that speakers with 5 1/4" midranges or woofers seem to yield superior imaging and soundstages. I didn't specifically go looking for them, but of the four sets of good sounding speakers that I own, two have 5 1/4 woofers, the other two are threeway designs and have that size midranges.

So, When I've been thinking about upgrading. First I try to listen to a representive sample of different types of speakers to get an idea of what new ideas in speaker design are out there and what kind of sound I might now prefer. Then I zero in on the speakers that offer that sound and attempt to determine that 'sweet spot' in each line. Then I have the 'shoot out' to see what I might want.

The last time I did it, I spent a couple of months carefully doing this. Then, I happened to be in a store when they took a pair of 12 year old Thiel CS 2.2's in for trade. I said, hmm..m.m.m.. mind setting them up for a listen. I listened and bought on the spot. So you can see, there is a gap between theory and reality.

After a couple of years, the Thiel's got damaged. I went through the process again. Then, I loaded the Thiel's into my pickup and drove them to Lexington, KY and had Thiel factory refurbish them back to spec. Now I'm happy again.

So, in terms of how you might actually upgrade. The right speakers aren't anything you can logically decide on. When you hear them, you will know it. If you don't, then keep your wallet in your pants.

Like that old advice about knowing you're in love..... If you have to ask... you aren't!

the only absolute that i know about audio is that simply b/c product 1 is 1000 & product 2 is 2000, & both are produced by the same company, there is no guarantee that product 2 will sound better than product 1 (& in some cases may sound worse) or that product 2 is twice as good as product 1. many companies have different levels of components, speakers, cables, etc. NEVER assume that simply going up to the "next level" will result in any sonic improvement whatsoever. after all, it's the company which sets the levels (& the prices) in the 1st place. i have demoed so much stuff at home over the past year that i very quickly learned that the next level up, or in some cases going 2-4 levels up, may have no impact other than simply removing more $$$ from your wallet. always listen for yourself & try & arrange a home demo.

indcrimdefense said:

the only absolute that i know about audio is that simply b/c product 1 is 1000 & product 2 is 2000, & both are produced by the same company, there is no guarantee that product 2 will sound better than product 1 (& in some cases may sound worse) or that product 2 is twice as good as product 1. many companies have different levels of components, speakers, cables, etc. NEVER assume that simply going up to the "next level" will result in any sonic improvement whatsoever. after all, it's the company which sets the levels (& the prices) in the 1st place. i have demoed so much stuff at home over the past year that i very quickly learned that the next level up, or in some cases going 2-4 levels up, may have no impact other than simply removing more $$$ from your wallet. always listen for yourself & try & arrange a home demo.

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The big price difference can sometimes just be in the cost to finnish the cabinet extra beautiful.

SBF1

Warning: Super Long Post...

Guys,

I really feel the need to chime in here. A lot of speaker companies use the same drivers through out a series. Often times they use the same drivers through multiple series. Example: The Canton Vento line (their highest end – up to $30K per pair) use the same drivers and many other parts (I know this because I’m a Canton dealer) as their Karat (up to $16K per pair) and Ergo series (up to $3,600 per pair). Now before you go off and think “thirty grand for speakers? That’s ridiculous!” Please consider the fact that you need an amp(s) to power these bad boys as well as cabling, a source, etc. It ends up being much more than $30K. Now that you’ve got that thought in your head, think about putting those speakers with something like the highest end Yamaha, HK, Onkyo, or Marantz receiver you powered your old speakers with. The Vento wouldn’t sound much better than the Karat and the Ergo would seem like the best value because they would sound damn close to either of the aforementioned. Well, now imagine scrapping the receiver and using something high-end from Halcro or Krell. The Vento would be amazing, the Karats would be damn close but not quite as good, and the Ergo would sound like it didn’t belong in the room. There are a lot of variables to consider when just upgrading speakers. Particularly in the high end. You might not tell the difference between a $1K and $2K set of Polks. Particularly if you have a subwoofer (assuming it’s tuned right). But that’s not really a huge jump. Not like a $300 set of Polks to a $2000 set of Polks. Now you’re noticing a big change towards the positive. And the difference between the two speakers would widen even further if you upgraded your receiver or amp depending on what you were powering the old set with.

I know my example with Canton is very extreme, but here’s the point: Upgrading speakers from the same manufacturer and just switching them in and out with your old equipment sometimes doesn’t tell the whole story. Different speakers need different things to sound good. Speakers are engineered that way. In dealing with the concept of switching brands entirely? Well, you can stay in the same price point with a new brand and get a different sound that’s sometimes better/worse than your old pair. That’s the art of Audio. It’s the same with video, just not on such an obvious scale.

That being said, here’s an interesting thought that most people don’t consider:
A low-fi speaker company’s best speaker almost always gives a much much better value than a mid-fi company’s low end speaker. A mid-fi company’s best speaker can usually be a better value than a hi-fi company’s entry level (and sometimes even mid to high end) offering. And a high-fi company’s best speaker… well, those are almost all pretty sweet compared to anything else.

I hope any of this helps.

InTheIndustry.....

That was an interesting post and perspective. Many thanks for the input.

Please allow me to ask you a tangential question. You indicated that those high-end Cantons required high-end amplification to make them shine...otherwise, one couldn't tell much difference amongst the speakers. Without getting into the absorbing controversy about whether different amps/receivers impart a different sound signature on one's audio system, I'm curious about the power end of things. Namely, (for example) what does a 400 wpc Krell amp add to (or subtract from) a 2-channel system that isn't (or is) there...provided there is adequate power from some mid-fi receiver to drive the speakers? Personal example....I own a new Yammie RX-V2500 and am auditioning a new set of speakers with it. It will drive both my old (different brand) and new auditioning set of speaks to ear-bleeding levels, should I choose. My system sounds identical when using either my old Panasonic or new and more powerful Yammie when driving both sets of speakers, by the way. (I just liked the features of the Yammie better.) So, other than adequate power to drive inefficient, or amp gobbling speakers, what else is required from an amplifier to make the speakers perform distinctly better?

You know what I'm fearing in the background of my fog enshrouded brain as a result of this philosophical and actual speaker hunt? I'm afraid that given the fact that speakers are such subjective things, requiring intimate interaction with the human brain, that there really is no reason to pay big bucks for a speaker. And that sounds sorta irrational to me. It has been mentioned that all speakers use trade-offs in their designs. Is it safe to say that all speakers color sound to some degree? If that is the case, then I see only two avenues open for intelligent speaker purchasing. One...establish a budget and find the speaker that imparts the least coloration onto someone's (studio engineer?) idea of live sound. Or two...search for the speaker that imparts the coloration that is most enjoyable to the buyer (e.g. 'brightness', 'flatness', etc.). The former seems to be favored by the 'audiophile' and the latter by...well...non-'audiophiles', lol. (If you like the sound of it, buy it.) Do you know what I mean?

The bottom line question still remains with the first strategy (but is unimportant in the second). How much 'less coloration' does doubling the price of speakers buy you? A tiny bit more 'live'? Is it all a diminishing return concept? Or does it buy you a lot more 'live'...quite noticeable improvement?

I'm still chin scratching over this...........

Another Long One......

When reading this post, please understand that I am not using specific brands and models because they are the exception. I am speaking in generalities as to the rule. Note - there are always exceptions.

I will tackle the whole Watts = Loudness theory first.
Watts = Loudness is the equation that most people use. I’m asking you to consider this instead: Watts = Sound Quality

This is particularly true on most higher end (the definition of high end is different for everybody) speakers. A lot of high end speakers are designed to be “thirsty” for power. I don’t mean that you have to have super high volume levels to get good sound out of nice speakers. Distortion levels are a totally different topic.

Example: A set of Anthony Gallo ADiva’s will sound AMAZING when powered with something that a $1000 Onkyo 803 (or insert many other name brand companies comparable model) brings to the table. This is because the constant power of the Onkyo 803 is enough (or maybe slightly more) to really make those little guys sing. Don't misunderstand - it's enough to make a lot of big guys sing too. Put them on something like the Onkyo 603X which has considerable less power and you will notice a substantial drop off in sound quality. Still good, but not AMAZING. Mate the Onkyo $5K 1000 model to them and you won’t get much of an improvement over the 803. Certainly not enough to warrant the price difference. Now, take a pair of Gallo Reference and put the 803 (again, pick any other receiver in this range – the results will not change much) with them. They will sound pretty good. But, put a nice dedicated amp along with Gallo's separate amp to the Reference’s and you will really hear them open up. When done right they are incredible for a $3k range speaker.

What a more powerful amp like the Krell you mentioned will do to a lower end (and by low end I mean speakers that are way below the Amps price range) speaker is anybody’s guess. It depends on the speakers really. What you will get into is way way overkill. Meaning they won’t sound any better - as with the Gallo example above. Or they could sound worse. It just depends on the speaker.

So, in your real life example in which you switched out receivers and didn’t notice a difference? Guess what…. there’s no difference. Unless there are features you want on the new model, don’t buy it. Your speakers may not require what the new one brings to the table. Or the new one might not bring enough. A speaker “is what it is”, so to speak. That doesn’t mean that your speakers aren't any good. It just means that they probably don’t need more power and are sounding as good as they can with the equipment and room set up the way they are.

Your other question is a tricky one. 1st off I will say that many “audiophiles” and “audiophile wannabe’s” are full of crap. I read magazines like Stereophile for the humor that they bring and not for truly insightful thoughts about 2 ch audio and hometheater. BUY YOUR SPEAKERS AND OTHER AUDIO EQUIPMENT BASED ON YOUR BUDGET AND HOW IT SOUNDS TO YOU. There is nothing wrong with research or hearing other people’s opinions, but those opinions (mine included) are not going to be listening to your gear…. YOU ARE. If you liked a set of speakers, “colored” or not, then they’re perfect for you. Period. While we're on that subject, who’s to say what is and what isn’t colored in a speaker? Unless you have the band who recorded the track right there in the room with you for you to A/B the song, then what is “colored” is anybody’s opinion. Your electronics can also “color” sound. That means that your receiver, DVD player, CD player, etc. all add or subtract something. Plus, the type of music or movies you play will make different speakers sound better/worse as well. This is a huge point that people never ever pay attention to.

There is a point to buying high end speakers. But to get that point, your electronics have to make sense. Don’t buy THX Ultra certified speakers and put a $500 receiver to them if you want the best performance for your $. You just won’t get the sound that you paid for out it. The same thing is true in reverse, a THX Ultra receiver won’t give you the sound that you bought it for if you attach some cheesy speakers to it. Better equipment needs better equipment to sound best.

Does this help at all? If not, please let me know.