War on Terror

WndrBr3d · Jan 25, 2006

I've been reading a lot lately about the War on Terror and giving it some thought.

To me, the War on Terror has -a lot- in common with the "War on Drugs". Bad men in other countries (cartels, terrorists) are doing bad things that are going to hurt the United States.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, a lot was done in the War on Drugs. Border security stepped up and the United States help fund over seas operations to stop drug production and take down drug cartels.

Yet still, every day, billions of dollars worth in drugs is smuggled into the country and sold on the streets. It's literally killing America from the inside.

Now, I want to believe in the US Government. I want to believe that they're protecting the people and going after the bad men, but then I stop and see the 'progress' that’s been made in the War on Drugs over the last twenty years and I start to worry.

Is it even possible to win a War on Terror? Can you beat an idea?

Look at military states like Israel or Lebanon. They live in a society where the police constantly try to maintain order. Curfews, Checkpoints through the entire country, things that would be grossly unconstitutional in the United States, yet even THEY cant stop Terrorism on their home soil.

I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this. It seems that our own president has to constantly REMIND people "we're at war!" when making public addresses, as if he's trying to convince someone.

This isn't an anti-left or anti-right thread, but I would honestly like some good discussion on the topic of "The War on Terrorism". What is it (really), How can we fight it, and can it even be won?

highfihoney · Jan 25, 2006

first of all to win any war we need to be commited as a country to win & we are not,the usa has become a country of politicaly correct p#$$ies who are afraid to use a word that might offend somebody let alone go over to some other god foresaken s#!t hole of a country & burn the f!ken place down.

want to win the war on terror,go straight to the middle east & start with burning afghanastan to the ground,leave not one single living thing then see how f~#*n ballsy the rest of the osama bin s#!t head's of the middle east are.

winning any war is a simple strategy but the way politics in america have evolved into the @$$ kissing farse that we see today we aint winning s#!t.

WndrBr3d · Jan 25, 2006

Wouldn't that just be Genocide?

highfihoney · Jan 25, 2006

WndrBr3d said:
Wouldn't that just be Genocide?

more like pesticide.

jaxvon · Jan 25, 2006

I support the War on Terror...sort of. I support taking out the terrorists/extremists/whatevers that were behind the 9/11 attacks. Lumping Iraq into the "War on Terror" is bull****. Yes Saddam was a dictator, and a fairly brutal one at that, but we don't exactly have a clean track record. Do we belong in Afghanistan? Yes. I have an uncle who has been conducting successful operations against what's left of Al Qaida (sp?). I think we need to get the hell out of Iraq before we end up in another 30 year quagmire like Vietnam (I know it wasn't 30 years of fighting).

As for the war on drugs, I believe it's a big lie. The government's efforts to stop drug traffic raises drug prices in the country, leading to larger profits for the drug lords that move it in here. People will also commit worse crimes to obtain the money to buy the drugs. Many people do drugs because it's illegal (the whole risk-taking, rebellious thing). It's a viscious circle. Should we just leagalize everything? No. But I am a firm believer that we should stop worrying about relatively harmless and natural drugs like Marijuana, Peyote, and psilocybe mushrooms. We waste SO much money fighting our war on drugs each year that it's disgusting.

On a side note to the drugs, the overall attitude towards alcohol in this country is a big part of the problem with alcohol. It's often vilified and glorified at the same time. For kids under 21, alcohol is an evil substance that shall not be touched until they are of age. College kids think they're being badasses when they drink underage. I (thankfully) grew up in a different environment where alcohol was respected. I think if more parents spent time emphasizing respect and moderation we would have a lot less drinking problems in college (and beyond).

And hifihoney...that's remarkably racist. Have you ever been outside of the US?

/Rant

WndrBr3d · Jan 25, 2006

Right. I think the connection between the War on Drugs and the War on Terror is that both are impossible to win by fighting.

The War on Terror is a self sustaining beasts, in the sense that the more terrorists we kill over in the middle east, the more people that will be inclined to join a terrorist cell because the United States is killing their countrymen.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but I think I've at least identified the problem.

nibhaz · Jan 25, 2006

Been there done that!

Though highfihoney's remarks are flippant, they are not totally without merit. General Carl Von Clausewitz clearly states the means by which to win a war is by breaking the enemies will or means to make war. Such was the approach in WWII in the concept of total war, but in today’s world such an approach is considered heavy handed or politically incorrect, so the war on terror will be a long an tumultuous road.

As far as Iraq not originally being part of the war on terror…well, that is merely one point of view, and one that lacks an understanding of long-term strategic planning. The war in Iraq is a three prong attack on the war on terror.

First off it removes an unstable tyrant sitting on millions of tons of conventional weapons. The more important of which is the seizing of millions of tons of arms which can no longer fall into the hands of terrorist. I’m must concede, however, that their were not enough troops at the onset of the war to seize of all of these weapon caches, thus contributing to the current situation America finds itself in.

Secondly it creates a focal point for the terrorist to attack. Do to it’s location in the Middle East it makes it easier for the terrorist to shift their resources and carry out their attacks. The key point here is that they are not attacking American citizen on American soil. Instead they are attacking trained soldiers and fellow Muslims. For the soldier this is their job, whether they realize it, or understand why they are there. And by attacking fellow Muslims it causes uncertainty in the terrorist cause, they lose face in claiming that it’s just a war against the west, thus drawing attention to how extreme there views are, and thus weakening their base.

Thirdly it presents the possibility of a democratic state in which the citizens are in control of their on destiny and success. With the success of a democratic state in the Middle East the citizens of other Muslims countries will realize that it is not the west that is holding them down, but rather the oppressive leaders of their countries who have been fueling the people with hate in an effort to draw attention from their own tyranny. This applies to theocracies, autocracies, and monarchies that abound in the region.

On a side note, America’s attack on Iraq caused Libya to give up its WMD program which can only be characterized as a success for the war on terror.

And as far as the war on drugs goes…well, let me just say that is a farce. The amount of money we throw at this problem is absolutely disgusting and complete appalling. jaxvon’s assessment of the situation is fairly spot on.

jaxvon · Jan 25, 2006

nibhaz said:
First off it removes an unstable tyrant setting on millions of tons of conventional weapons.

Are you talking the effect of impeaching President Bush? No, you can't be, because he's sitting on nukes, chemical weapons, and biological weapons too.

Political banter aside, our "War on Terror" is a propaganda construct. Seeking revenge for what was done in NY and DC is very justifiable (and I support it). The problem is, there is no end to the war. Our actions only create more enemies. Does this mean we should stop? No. We've been making progress in our original objective in Afghanistan (minus Bin Laden). But Iraq? Alone? Doesn't seem like a grand idea. I think part of the reason that the war pisses me off so much is the fact that we could've spent a lot of that money to do better things, like help people at home in our own country enjoy fair elections (among many other things).

BTW, what is the third prong in the war on terror? Iran? If it is, that would be an incredible mistake. We're already spreading our troops far too thin. Another front would ruin us, as well as turn the entire middle east against us. Attacking Iran would make it look even more like a Christian holy war against the Muslims.

furrycute · Jan 25, 2006

nibhaz said:
First off it removes an unstable tyrant sitting on millions of tons of conventional weapons. The more important of which is the seizing of millions of tons of arms which can no longer fall into the hands of terrorist. I’m must concede, however, that their were not enough troops at the onset of the war to seize of all of these weapon caches, thus contributing to the current situation America finds itself in.

You forgot one very important point, that tyrant was sitting on top of the world's second largest oil reserve.

And you are right, we haven't sent in nearly enough people to reclaim all that oil.

highfihoney · Jan 25, 2006

jaxvon said:
And hifihoney...that's remarkably racist. Have you ever been outside of the US?/Rant

what a thing to accuse a person of racisim when they simply say what they mean instead of playing the politicaly correct word game.

i dont dislike the people for their color,i dislike them because they hate all of us & are taught from youth to hate the usa & to spread violence & destruction to the usa at every possible opportunity,that is not just my opinion it's a fact,while we teach our children the 3 r's they teach their children that all amercian's are the devil.

to answer your direct question to me,yes ive been outside of this country & outside of this continent several different time's, the company i work for does contracting work on us embassy's world wide,im also old enough to have witnessed how our country only half heartedly fights wars & how the american public s#!*s on the brave men who fight them,i also had a family member lose his life as a result of a direct attack from anti amercian savage's in the middle east.

ive also been to the pre 911 world trade center & marveled at it's accomplishment & sadly ive also been to the new world trade center site now known as "the hole" by many of my friend's who live in the city,it's truly a sobering experience to stand behind the fence & look into that pit & wonder why we even allow them to live after something like that.

as far as im concerned our government can stop using my tax dollar's to buy them food with & buy napalm instead,a better investment in the long run

jaxvon · Jan 25, 2006

Agreed! Sorry for the accusation, but it did sound quite racist/bigoted.

And for the record, I support all the men and women fighting (my uncle is in the Navy..."taking care" of things in Afghanistan), but I don't necessarily support what they're being made to do.

I have to be politically correct here at Michigan. Think "Affirmative Action". Hell, on a recent housing survey I filled out, there are THREE choices for gender (Male, Female, Transgender) and this list of goodness for "sexual preference":

Heterosexual
Gay
Lesbian
Bisexual
Transgender
Queer

Politically correct to the max. It feels good to speak openly. *AHHHHH*

Matt34 · Jan 25, 2006

I'll give ya a play by play if you want when I head back to Iraq in April.

Found this out yesterday.

nibhaz · Jan 25, 2006

jaxvon said:
Are you talking the effect of impeaching President Bush? No, you can't be, because he's sitting on nukes, chemical weapons, and biological weapons too.

Political banter aside, our "War on Terror" is a propaganda construct. Seeking revenge for what was done in NY and DC is very justifiable (and I support it). The problem is, there is no end to the war. Our actions only create more enemies. Does this mean we should stop? No. We've been making progress in our original objective in Afghanistan (minus Bin Laden). But Iraq? Alone? Doesn't seem like a grand idea. I think part of the reason that the war pisses me off so much is the fact that we could've spent a lot of that money to do better things, like help people at home in our own country enjoy fair elections (among many other things).

BTW, what is the third prong in the war on terror? Iran? If it is, that would be an incredible mistake. We're already spreading our troops far too thin. Another front would ruin us, as well as turn the entire middle east against us. Attacking Iran would make it look even more like a Christian holy war against the Muslims.

First of all America did not go "Alone" America had support from:
Australia
Denmark
Poland
United Kingdom
Afghanistan
Angola
Azerbaijan
Colombia
Costa Rica
The Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Iceland
Japan
Kuwait
Macedonia
The Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
The Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
The Philippines
Rwanda
Singapore
The Solomon Islands
South Korea
Tonga
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
Albania
Bulgaria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain

Secondly throwing money at a problem will not solve a problem...money thrown at elections...that has to be the poorest example of money well spent.

Thirdly, in my previous post I clearly stated three objectives...Iran is not in that picture, but that does not mean we mean we may not have to deal with Iran in the near future. However, America has many options for military action that do not include troop deployment on the ground...however some of these options may not be pretty, or well received.

nibhaz · Jan 25, 2006

Matt34 said:
I'll give ya a play by play if you want when I head back to Iraq in April.

Found this out yesterday.

Godspeed to you brother!

zipper · Jan 25, 2006

Thanks for your service Matt..............may God bless you.

I despise war as I'm sure most do. But if we didn't retaliate we'd be that much worse off the next time these f....n scumbags hit us (or try to). Because of how our society has evolved we are a target of some & disliked by many. We are vulnerable because we value freedom & life, & "play by the rules". Terrorist know we won't nuke anyone, & as long as we try to play world peacekeeper ( yes, we have ulterior motives) we'll continue to be chastised & targeted.

My BIL travels the world on a regular basis for biz & his opinion of us (USA)? We're pigs............we gobble up the worlds resources like no other. We have it so much better here than any other place in the world yet we are never satisfied.

I love this country, but we're headed for a fall if we keep going about on our present course. We're greedy..........

Tomorrow · Jan 25, 2006

Matt34 said:
I'll give ya a play by play if you want when I head back to Iraq in April.

Found this out yesterday.

Damn, Matt. Can you tell them you made a mistake in your re-enlist last week? Like that was really your twin brother or something?

You okay with this?

Matt34 · Jan 25, 2006

rjbudz said:
Damn, Matt. Can you tell them you made a mistake in your re-enlist last week? Like that was really your twin brother or something?

You okay with this?

Yeah, I'm fine with it. I knew it was only a matter of time before I had to go back. There are guys that are on there 3rd and 4th tours now, so I have no room to complain.

It had nothing to do with the re-enlistment, I would be going regardless. It can all change between now and April but they need to replace 13 teams and there just aren't enough of us to pick and choose.

masak_aer · Jan 26, 2006

vengeance/retaliation??

Whatever you brand the war on Iraq is, Vengeance/Retaliation, IMO, it can't be justified. Who is U.S to go to another people's country to chase down a terrorist, bring down the government just because we suspected they have WMD (which is bulls**** as of today)? We're not the police of the world.
Remember, we favored and supported Iraq when they were still in war with Iran. Where do u think they got all the weapons from? Please be a lil' open-minded as well, who benefits the most from the war on Iraq? U.S. companies: the oil company, the construction company and the weapon makers which of course all lead to several major players! You are welcome to guess who!! Why not attack Syria, a known terorrist safe-harbor? or North Korea, a known nuclear-head weapons owner? Yeah, rite, if North Korea had oil, we might as well had long time ago.
Also known fact:
George W. Bush's father was meeting with Osama bin Laden's brother, Shafig bin Laden, in the Ritz-Carlton Hotel, Washington, on the morning of 9/11. They were on Carlyle Group business just a few miles from where hijackers supposedly acting on behalf of Osama bin Laden would fly a plane into the Pentagon. What are they doing? No accusations here. Being the father of the current president, do u know how much he gets paid as being the shareholder and advisor to this Carlyle Group? People, look who are in charge in this Carlyle crap (on a side note: i'd love to work for them with all the cash in the pocket...lol

). One question i want to ask: if you get paid , say a half-million dollar as the president of a country versus 10Million dollars from your investments/shares, which do u think u'll think more: your country or your shares? Enough on that!

Now, Afghanistan. Why most of them hate us? Cut the crap about killing them all and we're all be saved! That's just retarded I'd say. What do they have against us? November 1947: The U.S. helps push through a UN resolution partitioning Palestine into a Zionist state and an Arab state, giving the Zionist authorities control of 54% of the land. At that time Jewish settlers were about 1/3 of the population. Imagine you are the Afghan, would you hate us? And hey, Israel has WMD...Let us all march to Israel and strip 'em from their WMD and overthrow their government and let Israelis decide who can be their prime minister!!

PS: I may be wrong and i hope i'm wrong...show me where i'm wrong and i shall be enlightened.

highfihoney · Jan 26, 2006

masak_aer Please be a lil' open-minded as well [/QUOTE said:
open minded are you kidding me ,why should any of us be open minded tword's the savages in afghanastan,they hate us,they want to kill us,that is all we ever need to know,these people are religious fanatics who havnt even figured out how to live in peace with their own countrymen over the last 10,000 year's let alone figure out how to act on the world stage,we treat our pet's better than the men over there treat the mothers of their own children

what do you think afghanastan would do to the world if they were a super power & do you really believe that if we just left them alone they would go away,they would set the world ablaze with a nuclear jihad.

in our criminal justice system in the usa criminals who have proven by their actions to be career criminals or extremely violent offenders dont get their a$$es kissed they get locked away for life under the 3 strikes policy but we should be more open minded about an entire country who's only export is death & terror & has proven countless times that they fullly intend to do us as much harm as possible.

i agree that the usa should not have invaded iraq or afghanastan but not because the people were innocent or meerly misunderstood but because the amercian people have lost the ability to get behind the president & allow our armed forces to do what they are the best in the world at.

why should we even tolerate their existince on this planet? what does the country of afghanastan offer the world & what is their contribution to the common good of man kind?

i say to all the people who think the usa is in the wrong to put their money where their mouth is & get on a plane,go over to afghanastan & offer the natives their help,i'll bet they would really appreciate the it

furrycute · Jan 26, 2006

highfihoney said:
why should we even tolerate their existince on this planet? what does the country of afghanastan offer the world & what is their contribution to the common good of man kind?

Let's see.

During the times of the Roman empire, the isles of Britannia provided nothing but sex slaves and gladiators to the Romans. And if I recall correctly, similar fate befell the savages of Germanic tribes and the Gulls.

During the Dark Ages, when the Europeans were busy burning each other at the stakes, the Arabs exceled in mathematics, astronomy, commerce, to levels the Europeans would not catch up to till 500 years later.

And for that matter, the Chinese were at the pinnacle of human civilization till 300 years ago. The first emperor of China 2000 years ago wielded armies far larger than the legendary Roman legions of the same period. And for that matter, Ghengis Khan, a nomadic savage, wiped out the armies of most of Europe, Central Asia, and China. And oh, quite a large number of the descendants of European royal houses still carry around Ghengis Khan's genes. That's HIS contribution to the rise of European civilization.

Come to think of it, the Mongolian domination of Europe was so extensive, most Europeans today probably carry some Mongolian genes in one form or another, and the same goes for the Chinese. There ya go, that's those nomadic savages' contribution to human civilization. You never know if Columbus would have discovered the new world without those Mongolian genes.

It was great irony when Hitler so despised those "Asiatic savages." When most Germans do in fact carry around some Mongolian blood.

Great powers rise and fall in cycles. It's the natural law of this world. Don't let power of a single moment overpower your ego.

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