New way to bust snake oil salesmen and audio myths

[Seth=L]

The best way to get snake oil salesmen to see things your way is to threaten to shoot them, if that doesn't work, then shoot them. Shooting them solves the problem, but it's the most extreme treatment approach available. Aggressive treatments always come at a high cost.

[djreef]

Originally Posted by Seth=L

The best way to get snake oil salesmen to see things your way is to threaten to shoot them, if that doesn't work, then shoot them. Shooting them solves the problem, but it's the most extreme treatment approach available. Aggressive treatments always come at a high cost.

Please, let's not give Alex any ideas.

DJ

[basspig]

Originally Posted by mtrycrafts

If that was a straight speaker cable, not a 70V line, no wonder. Greenhill back a few years ago wrote about cable audibility conducted DBT, compared 24ga, 16ga and 12 ga Monster. Certainly not 250ft lengths

Interestingly, a number of listeners heard differences between 24ga and 16ga even with music and I think all the subject heard it with pink noise, a more sensitive signal. But, differences went away between 16ga and the 12 ga.

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

[djreef]

Originally Posted by basspig

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

Yea, like he said. Gawd, I hate slow music, esp where low frequency is concerned.

Give me articulation or give me death.

DJ

[njedpx3]

Originally Posted by basspig

I'm not surprised that people heard a difference between #24 and #16 wire. In my own installation, I heard a difference between #14 and #8 wire that replaced it. I lost some bass with the wire upgrade, but then I realize that what I lost was the undamped decay of percussive transients. (The same psychoacoustic principal that causes people to believe that the sound pressure if louder when the amp is buried into severe clipping, as opposed to just on the threshold of clipping. Peak loudness isn't any higher, but the duration of the peaks is lengthened by the duration of the clipping and the ear-brain mechanism perceives this longer duration as louder transients).
This is the driving force behind the loudness wars in the CD mastering industry--clipped audio sounds louder. Ringing audio sounds louder. Fancy processors that do both affects now fetch kilodollars where once upon a time, the clean amplifiers fetched the killodollars.

So you had 200 foot runs ?

8 GAUGE = 0.6282 OHMS / 1000 ft.
14 GAUGE =2.525 OHMS / 1000 ft.


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%
8 gauge 10 0.0006282 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
8 gauge 25 0.0006282 0.015705 0.39% 0.20%
8 gauge 50 0.0006282 0.03141 0.78% 0.39%
8 gauge 100 0.0006282 0.06282 1.55% 0.78%

14 gauge 10 0.002525 0.02525 0.63% 0.31%
14 gauge 25 0.002525 0.063125 1.55% 0.78%
14 gauge 50 0.002525 0.12625 3.06% 1.55%
14 gauge 100 0.002525 0.2525 5.94% 3.06%


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%

At 100 ft the 14 gauge wire accounts for 5.94% of the total resistance for 4 ohm speakers which is barely audiobly discernable. it will have no preceivable affect on bass, mid, or treble sound. Of course there is always the self-fulfilling prophesy and the Pavlov dog effects.

24 gauge is to small for anything over 5 feet. 16 gauge is actually good up to 25 feet ( remember that the total wire loop is double the distance from AVR to speaker)

Peace

Forest Man ...also the Wire Man


wire gauge is way, way overated!

[lsiberian]

Originally Posted by njedpx3

So you had 200 foot runs ?

8 GAUGE = 0.6282 OHMS / 1000 ft.
14 GAUGE =2.525 OHMS / 1000 ft.


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%
8 gauge 10 0.0006282 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
8 gauge 25 0.0006282 0.015705 0.39% 0.20%
8 gauge 50 0.0006282 0.03141 0.78% 0.39%
8 gauge 100 0.0006282 0.06282 1.55% 0.78%

14 gauge 10 0.002525 0.02525 0.63% 0.31%
14 gauge 25 0.002525 0.063125 1.55% 0.78%
14 gauge 50 0.002525 0.12625 3.06% 1.55%
14 gauge 100 0.002525 0.2525 5.94% 3.06%


ressistance total resistance %wire 4ohm %wire 8 Ohm
length per/ft
16 gauge 10 0.004016 0.006282 0.16% 0.08%
16 gauge 25 0.004016 0.1004 2.45% 1.24%
16 gauge 50 0.004016 0.2008 4.78% 2.45%
16 gauge 100 0.004016 0.4016 9.12% 4.78%

24 gauge 10 0.02567 0.2567 6.03% 3.11%
24 gauge 25 0.02567 0.64175 13.83% 7.43%
24 gauge 50 0.02567 1.2835 24.29% 13.83%
24 gauge 100 0.02567 2.567 39.09% 24.29%

At 100 ft the 14 gauge wire accounts for 5.94% of the total resistance for 4 ohm speakers which is barely audiobly discernable. it will have no preceivable affect on bass, mid, or treble sound. Of course there is always the self-fulfilling prophesy and the Pavlov dog effects.

24 gauge is to small for anything over 5 feet. 16 gauge is actually good up to 25 feet ( remember that the total wire loop is double the distance from AVR to speaker)

Peace

Forest Man ...also the Wire Man


wire gauge is way, way overated!

Well at 250 feet you have other concerns. The load starts becoming reactive. Read roger russell for more information.

[njedpx3]

Originally Posted by lsiberian

Well at 250 feet you have other concerns. The load starts becoming reactive. Read roger russell for more information.

You also are too far away to hear the speakers, in most cases

Can you image a room 500 x 500 x 10 = 2,500,000 cubic feet.

About 20 or 30 SVS Ultra subs needed .. or a dozen Gothams.

====

Wait we are talking a concert hall which have speakers well beyond my $$$ and imagination; doesn not really fit any HT systems I am familiar with.

===

Yes, Roger Russell of McIntosh is a renown authority, here is his discussion

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#longerwires

However, the inductance is still very low (except at high frequencies) and thec capacitance while increasing still has minimal affect on the audibility (except at very low frequencies).

Ohms is a combination of resistance, inductance and capacitance. Inductance and capacitance vary with frequency.

Capacitive reactance, Xc
Xc = 1 / 2Pi f C where: Xc = reactance in ohms ()
f = frequency in hertz (Hz)
C = capacitance in farads (F)



Inductive reactance, XL
XL = 2pi fL where: XL = reactance in ohms ()
f = frequency in hertz (Hz)
L = inductance in henrys (H)









Peace,

Forest Man

[highfigh]

Originally Posted by njedpx3

You also are too far away to hear the speakers, in most cases

Can you image a room 500 x 500 x 10 = 2,500,000 cubic feet.

About 20 or 30 SVS Ultra subs needed .. or a dozen Gothams.

====

Wait we are talking a concert hall which have speakers well beyond my $$$ and imagination; doesn not really fit any HT systems I am familiar with.

There is no way anyone would design a 500' x 500' concert hall with a 10' ceiling height, or with a square footprint. They also wouldn't use consumer speakers, amps, processors, cabling, interconnects, or any other consumer parts, accessories or equipment in a venue like that.