Speakers; When is good enough, enough

[av_phile]

Originally Posted by savelife

So why does it matter if your speakers are accurate?

It matters.

While I recognize that the recording process is not perfect and that unwanted sonic artifacts can easily enter the chain, the recording knowledge and the equipment we have are the best that sceince and engineering have to offer at this time. Every recording effort has its problems and limitations.
The effort of capturing a performance onto a medium we can reproduce at home comes with the hi-fi objective of extracting the best possible REPLICA of that performance. A recording is a REPLICA. A REPLICA is never the REAL thing. But a good REPLICA comes close.

At home, our playback system recovers the information on that REPLICA with the best possible playback equipment we can afford. Having neutral, transparent and accurate playback system makes it possible for us to hear what was recorded in such a REPLICA. It is the objective of a Hi-Fi home playback system to reveal a RECORDING by reproducing it without any coloration. It is NOT the objective of hi-fi playback to render a LIVE performance at home. Though an excellent recording played on an excellent, neutral, transparent and accurate player, amplifer and speakers in a reasonably treated room can APPROACH or sound like a live performance. But such a perception becomes a subjective function of the listener's remembrance of how live music sounds.

So why should an accurate speaker matters? OR for that matter an accurate, neutral and transparent player, an amp and the room? Because an audiophile wants to hear the recording. Not the speakers. Not the player, not the amp. And certainly not the room.

[surveyor]

I am a board certified clinical hypnotherapist. I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Hypnotherapy. I have 32 years of practice experience. I teach clinical hypnotherpay to psychologist, M.D.'s and dentists. I have written many scientific papers on the subject of modification of human behavior with use of hypnotics (see web site www.newlifeclinics.org. I can tell you that much of what you observe, and read regarding subjective audio experience regarding hi-fi gear and the like is purely placebo, and hypnotic in nature..

The above is very commendable, but how may I ask do your credentials qualify you as an audio expert?

Cheers

[zipper]

Hey pal,one doesn't need to be a doctor or an expert to figure out if he likes what he hears. Is it hypnosis when I discover that a Lexus rides & performs better than a Kia? Or is the Lexus name a placebo too? Ironically,the best sounding gear I've HEARD happens to be rather expensive.

[cornelius]

Dr. Dean it seems to me that you're talking about two things.

One, I do agree that placebo effects can and do occur. I'm a film editor and sometimes I'll be asked to make a minute change. I've had people working with me say that it looks better on playback when I haven't even changed anything yet, I was merely previewing the images. I think that's the same kind of situation that your talking about with comparing certain hifi gear.

Second, I disagree and believe that recordings can approach the original recorded sound. Is this also a placebo?

[dsa220]

Originally Posted by surveyor

I can tell you that much of what you observe, and read regarding subjective audio experience regarding hi-fi gear and the like is purely placebo, and hypnotic in nature..

The above is very commendable, but how may I ask do your credentials qualify you as an audio expert?

Cheers

I don't get where you are going with this and whose response you are referencing to. If it is av_philes, I did not read anything that he stated that was not within the spirit of what started this thread which is quite simply, when is good enough, enough?; (with respect to speakers) which is a valid question and worthy of discussion. As I read his reply it was in response to a question by savelife "So why does it matter if your speakers are accurate?". He gave what I would consider a concise answer when he says:

The effort of capturing a performance onto a medium we can reproduce at home comes with the hi-fi objective of extracting the best possible REPLICA of that performance. A recording is a REPLICA. A REPLICA is never the REAL thing. But a good REPLICA comes close.

and

So why should an accurate speaker matters? OR for that matter an accurate, neutral and transparent player, an amp and the room? Because an audiophile wants to hear the recording. Not the speakers. Not the player, not the amp. And certainly not the room.

I may have chosen the word facsimile, but that is just semantics. As I re-read it, replica may be better for this example. Unfortunately, we are going to hear the room, as it is probably the single greatest influence on the 'sound' of a speaker.

Of all the components within an audio system, speakers have more 'diamonds in the rough' that any other piece of equipment. If you look around long enough, you will find those little gems. You know the ones that have no right sounding as good as they do, yet they do. Speakers are IMHO the hardest to recommend to someone as the listening room and personal preferences play such a large roll in reproducing music into our homes. One persons 'clear and articulate high end' is another persons 'grating and over etched treble'.

My current speakers are 7-9 years old (modified B&W's augmented by a REL sub). I have not heard anything newer (that I am willing to pay for) that betters this current set-up enough [based on my likes/dislikes] to warrant me replacing them.

As I write this, the Allegro from Shostakovich’s' Symphony No. 1 (op. 10) is spinning on the TT. My humble little system (nor any system) is going to be able to recreate a 'live' performance of this piece in a home, but I can appreciate the interplay between the instruments and the sense of timing that the musicians demonstrate. The essence of the piece is laid before me to enjoy and the sense of what the conductors’ vision for this piece comes through (and how it differs from that of another conductor). This is what a good pair of speakers should do, that is, allow the essence of the performance and the vision of the artist to come through whether it is Classical, Jazz, R&B or good ol' Rock 'n' Roll.

Oh, and in case you are wondering what my credentials are for making this assessment:

I have been an audio enthusiast/hobbyist for 20+ years; I have two degrees in electronics and have repaired, upgraded and modified or built almost all of my own equipment; I have helped three churches purchase, install and balance out their sound systems as well as helped a local community college upgrade and improve the sound system for their performing arts theater. I have been recording live performances of music (jazz, small chamber ensembles, piano and choir) for at least 10+ years although not for the last two because of other obligations.

I also play the French horn, trumpet, 2 valve cornet, bugle, the tuba and I dabble with the baritone & tenor saxophones as well as the flute.

I guess you can say I just enjoy music.
__________________

[cornelius]

Nice post. I like your your quote on the bottom - but I can't help think that people think that way because the time domain wasn't addressed. Ha!

[surveyor]

I don't get where you are going with this and whose response you are referencing to. If it is av_philes, I did not read anything that he stated that was not within the spirit of what started this thread which is quite simply, when is good enough, enough?; (with respect to speakers) which is a valid question and worthy of discussion. As I read his reply it was in response to a question by savelife "So why does it matter if your speakers are accurate?". He gave what I would consider a concise answer when he says:
Quote:
The effort of capturing a performance onto a medium we can reproduce at home comes with the hi-fi objective of extracting the best possible REPLICA of that performance. A recording is a REPLICA. A REPLICA is never the REAL thing. But a good REPLICA comes close.

and

So why should an accurate speaker matters? OR for that matter an accurate, neutral and transparent player, an amp and the room? Because an audiophile wants to hear the recording. Not the speakers. Not the player, not the amp. And certainly not the room.

I am merely getting to the point that even though I don't have a PHD in anything, I do not think that mine or many others ability to tell the qualatative difference between good and bad gear is a figment of my imagination!

Cheers

[savelife]

Dear audiophile;

In response to When is good enough, enough, (refering to hi-fi loud speakers) I think you missed the point after reading my epistle ...but then again, maybe that's what I get for assuming readers will "read between the lines".

A speaker is only good enough when it can duplicate the original sound it is duplicating with such a high level of accuracy that no measurement device, including the human ear/brain, can detect any difference between the original sound and the speaker's duplication of the same sound. Of course this is impossible with todays technology. Because of the fact the original sound must, in some manner, be converted to electrons which race down wires at the speed of light, which are resisted and capacitated which will always cause a difference between the original and replicated sound. Therefore, I ask the question, why strive for perfect replication if it is not doable? Further, since it is not currently doable, why should anyone labor over the concern of how accurate or "good" their speakers are, or in this case, when is good, good enough? What matters is if the speaker SATISFIES its owner with the clear understanding that the owner is not hearing anything remotely true to the original sound recorded on the replicating media.

A speaker is not a music reproducer because it cannot accurately reproduce the original sound of the music it is attempting to replicate. All a speaker can do is take what is fed into it electronically and produce a "resemblence" of the original sound. Therefore, a speaker should not be called a speaker, it should be called a noise, sound or "musical instrument".

For the record, my first stereo speakers (noise makers) were Bose 901's (back in the 60's when they were the rage). From there I went to ESS Heil airmotion transformer A-1's, then the mighty corner Klipshhorns with center Belle Klipshorn, next came Theater Jensen A-5, then moving on to DQ-10-A's, then to Electrovoice 10-B's, then Martin Logan SL-3's and now a custombuilt $50,000.00 speaker system designed and built by Dennis Dean, Ph.D., an acoustical/audio engineer who fortunetly happens to be my brother.

Now let me tell you something about my home theater. My speakers (musical instruments) feature Scanspeak's slit-cone midrange Revlator drivers and matched silk dome tweeters (their best and most expensive drivers). The upper bass woofers are Daton Titanic III 10-inch drivers and the sub woofers are Daton Titanic III 15-inch woofers. The fs is 19 Hz and in their enclosure go down to 16 Hz at 125 dbs measured at one-meter (they rock the house when they achieve room lock). These speakers are 4-way tower floor standers. The cabinets are 2-inch MDF, braced, properly dampened, and stuffed with a proprietary filler. The weight is in excess of 375 lbs each! The center channel speaker uses the same tweeter and midrange driver as the left right towers. The center channel bass is channeled to the left-right tower woofers via the pre-pro (small speaker setting). The center channel also have two Revelator slit cone mid range drivers and the speaker is laid sideways on its own dedicated stand which places it dead center to the bottom of the movie screen. Cross over and phasing are set to eliminate lobing. The rear surround drivers use linium ribbons and 5-inch hexacone drivers with passive 24 db/Oct cross overs which are housed in a a nonresonate aluminum enclosures. These quasi omnidirectional speakers are ideal for surround speakers. They are mounted 7 feet from the floor on the sides and rear of the theater seating area. They are set on the small speaker setting in the prepro, thus utilize the left and right front main speakers woofers for bass below 80 Hz. They, along with the center channel speaker are crossed over at THX's recommended 80 Hz point. The sub woofer consist of a custom built 450 pound enclosure, tune ported per computer analysis which sports two 18-inch drivers. It works down to 12 cycles (- 3 db point which is the limit to our measurement equipment). Its efficiency is 95 db at 1 meter, 1 watt in put. The drivers are made by Focal (Jm Labs) in France. All speakers are padded to a 90 db output at one meter. All speakers are electronically crossed over and triampliefied with Anthem amplifiers @ 200 watts per speaker (each speaker has its own dedicated amplifier)!

My home theater pre-pro is a RDC-7 Integra Research (latest model with all upgrades). My DVD-CD player is Sony's flagship NS999ES DVD/CD/SACD player. Inter connects are Monster M-1000's wires. Speaker cables are good old fashioned 14 gauge Belden, oxygen free copper wire for the tweeters and midrange drivers and 12 gauge for the woofers and subwoofers (more about that later). My video consist of an 84-inch Stewart Grayhawk electric retractable screen. The overhead-front projector is a Sony Hi-Def LCD Cineza (the only dront projector I have ever viewed that projects a picture which looks good when an end table lamp is turned on in the room). I use Monster's line conditioner powered by a TripLite power converter transformer set up. All AC lines are dedicated 20 amp and grounded with a 3-foot copper stake in the ground. TV reception is DSS satellite. All Inter connects are 2 meters or less in length. Speaker wires are 18-ft. or less. My room is 12-feet high, 18.5 feet wide X 23.5 feet long and semi open to a hall, foyer and dining area (which make wonderful bass traps). This, mathmatically, causes a 34 Hz, 45 Hz and 72 Hz 5 db suckout, a mild 3 db suckout at 52 Hz and a huge 12db boost at 62 Hz and a 4 db boost at 80 Hz. This is corrected with an Audio control 1/6 octave bass equilizer (set with calibrated mic and meter), plus judicious phase adjustment to the sub woofers. The bass frequency measurement while in the main seating area of the room (14-feet from the center of the screen) is + 2db, - 1.5 db from 120 Hz to 18 Hz. The entire system from 20 Hz to 11K Hz. (the limit to my hearing) is + or - 2.5 db @ 4.5 meters from the center speaker, while seated as measured on an HP real time spectrum analyzer. Acoustical treatment consists of hung decorator rugs on the back walls, large back wall book case stuffed with books and nic-nacks, an acoustical fluffed (popcorn) ceiling, a 9 X 12-ft. area rug, and very soft, absorbant, dual pleat blinds which may be dropped down on the side walls exactly where the first sound wave launch hits the wall. Speakers are properly placed by comuter and sound meter analysis.

One last thing regarding your comment on replication and judging the ability of
componants to bring you nearest the original sound (my words, not yours). I'm so sorry, but I do not buy into 90% of the hype brought to us audiophiles by the commercial sector of our hobby and the home entertainment industry at large. My brother, an audio engineering whiz kid has proven to me what is real and what is not. Let me rehearse with you an example of how he does this.

We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. Volume levels were set at 75 Db at 1000K Hz. A high quality recording of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies, prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right...most of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.

So you see, my friend, that is why I have joined up with this site (audioholics) because their approach to good sound and education to acquire good sound and video is based on science, not hype, hypnotics, placebo effects or wishful
thinking.

My best regards;

Dr. Bob Dean

[cornelius]

Is your speaker system time coherent?

Have you ever been in a high end recording studio?

I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just trying to understand a little better where you're coming from!

[jeffsg4mac]

Mr. Dean, I have a question. Can I see some pictures