Issue with Yamaha RX-V4600 HDMI?

I just bought a Yamaha RX-V4600 reveiver earlier this month and I have an install issue that's driving me nuts:

I can't get the HDMI video to work when I connect my
system this way: Out of my HD cable box via
the DVI-out connector, into the 4600 via the HDMI-in
and then out via the 4600's HDMI-out to the HDMI-in on
my new Sony HDMI compatible TV. Works fine if I hook
up the HDMI cables direct between the cable box and
the TV. If I put the receiver in the loop I get video
for a couple of seconds and then it flashes once and
goes blank.

What's the problem?

Have you assigned the HDMI input you're using as the cbl/sat input? If not when you select cbl/sat it won't route the HDMI input signal to the HDMI output.

other then that, how do you like the 4600? and what speakers are you running?

red-goose;

you already posted this issue in another thread. Please limit each issue to one thread only.

I provided feedback to your issue at:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=94318#post94318

1) Inputs are correctly assigned on the 4600. BTW, the 4600 sounds great with OrbAudio Mod2 speakers.

2) The Motorola HD cable box (DCT6412) sends digital video fine to the TV (Sony KP-51WS520) using a DVI/HDMI cable. I'm using normal HDMI cable to connect the 4600 to the TV. Digital audio is sent through the receiver to the Mod2s via a digital optical cable. HDTV is truly a great thing.

3) When I first hooked up the 4600 in the loop, it put up a blue background with a warning that said something to the effect that "I was violating my digital rights managment and I needed to be using the component leads"?

4) I don't get the warning anymore, but now the video plays for two seconds clear as a bell, blinks and then goes dark, like the video signal was turned off.

5) All components are HDCP compliant

Appreciate any and all suggestions...

red-goose;

I checked with my contacts at Yamaha and this was their response:

We have received comment like this before... it is a source problem, the cable box software needs to be updated and had to be requested from the cable company... the issue is the sync between cable, receiver to monitor... we have seen this happen to other manufacturers receivers as well... hope this answers the questions

I also recall this issue in my Denon training in the past. Please check with the supplier of you cable box for a firmware/hardware upgrade and let us know what happens.

red-goose: Have a look at this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12244

-GeorgeM

More feedback from Yamaha Tech Support

This Problem lays with the Cable box. It is not an HDCP issue. It has to do with HDMI 1.0 compliance. Neither Scientific Atlanta or Motorola boxes were originally designed to recognize a "REPEATER". A repeater is a switching device in the HDMI format. Among other things it is able to pick off the audio bitstream from the HDMI signal. Much more than just a switch!

Conversations with S/A revealed that they have an upgrade algorithm that is available to local cable companies. However, the typical cable company takes 60 to 90 days to issue a firmware update blasts to their customers.

They are continually sending updates to their boxes but only after rigorous compatibilty testing with all other software being used in their systems.

According to S/A we should start to see boxes being updated by late Nov. But again they stress that it's totally up to the local cable companies to decide how urgently to attack this issue.

Note: This is not a Yamaha issue, all other HDMI switching receivers will produce the same results. (The only exception is certain products that act as a simple switch, not following the HDMI protocol).

gene said:

More feedback from Yamaha Tech Support

This Problem lays with the Cable box. It is not an HDCP issue. It has to do with HDMI 1.0 compliance. Neither Scientific Atlanta or Motorola boxes were originally designed to recognize a "REPEATER". A repeater is a switching device in the HDMI format. Among other things it is able to pick off the audio bitstream from the HDMI signal. Much more than just a switch!

Conversations with S/A revealed that they have an upgrade algorithm that is available to local cable companies. However, the typical cable company takes 60 to 90 days to issue a firmware update blasts to their customers.

They are continually sending updates to their boxes but only after rigorous compatibilty testing with all other software being used in their systems.

According to S/A we should start to see boxes being updated by late Nov. But again they stress that it's totally up to the local cable companies to decide how urgently to attack this issue.

Note: This is not a Yamaha issue, all other HDMI switching receivers will produce the same results. (The only exception is certain products that act as a simple switch, not following the HDMI protocol).

Click to expand...

Big Props to Gene for looking into this.

Thanks everyone for all this advice! Just back from a week-long biz trip today. Will be running through all the suggestions and letting the forum know the results.

FYI, while I was out of town, my wife ordered a second DVR from Comcast for another location in the house and when I took a peek at it it was a newer model: Motorola DCT-6412 III. And instead of a DVI out, it has an HDMI connector!

Bet that my issue will be gone once I swap the DVRs....

red-goose -- any progress wiht your HDMI display problems? Did the new STB/DVR box with HDMI out solve the problem?

I'm curious because I have athe same problem with my current DVI output on a Motorola DVR box being fed through a Pioneer VSX-72TXV receiver. Worksfine when connected directly from the DVR to the HDTV, but the screen just "flips" when the video is routed through the receiver.

Although the post from Gene on 8/28 in this thread with Yamaha's reply says it's not an HDCP isse, I still believe it's due to lack of HDCP compliance, but can't be 100% sure. According to Pioneer Elite support it's lack of HDCP compliance and I have verified with Comcast that their STB/DVR out is not HDCP compliant. When I connect a component source (which is analog and not subject to HDCP rules) and upconvert to HDMI through the reciver it diaplys with no problem using the HDMI input on the HDTV. Which further confirms that the problem is with lack of HDCP compliance of the DVI signal.

In any case I assume that a new box with full HDMI 1.1 (and HDCP) compliance will solve the problem Have you had any luck solving yours?

skipsterut said:

When I connect a component source (which is analog and not subject to HDCP rules) and upconvert to HDMI through the reciver it diaplys with no problem using the HDMI input on the HDTV. Which further confirms that the problem is with lack of HDCP compliance of the DVI signal.

Click to expand...

My cable company uses the SA 8300HD PVR cable box. It has HDMI out. I was looking at a Yamaha receiver until the salesman mentioned you cannot go from cable box HDMI out, to Yamaha HDMI in, then Yamaha HDMI out to HDMI in on my TV. The problems described in this thread would start happening.

The other day I was in the same audio store and they mentioned that the Pioneer VSX72 and VSX74 will pass an HDMI signal from cable box to receiver to TV. I didn't have time to challenge the salesman to prove this with in store equipment, but there seems to be a difference in the way HDMI switching is handle between the Yamaha 4600 and these VSX models.

My main reason for trying to go this route is to avoid any audio sync or video lag issues that may crop up with my Samsung DLP. Connecting from cable box or DVD player directly to the TV, and then running separate audio lines to a receiver can introduce audio lag.

Have you noticed any "lag" issues when connecting via component from cable (sat) box to your VSX and then HDMI to the TV?

Thanks

Sound Delay - syncing video and audio

No, I haven't noticed any significant delay in my setup so far. My wife, who is much more sensitive about these things, says see sees some delay on certain channels.

BTW -- regarding the source of the delay -- here's a quote from the VSX-72/74 manual --

Some monitors have a slight delay when showing video, so the soundtrack will be slightly out of sync with the picture. By adding a bit of delay you can adjust the sound to match the presentation of the video.

Click to expand...

I interpret this to mean that needing audio delay has to do with more processing being required for the video than audio and certain monitors not keeping the 2 in sync. Which implies that the delay is not so much the fact that the cable path for one or the other is longer. With the relatively short cable distances involved in a typical HT setup and the fact that each carries its signal at the speed of light, I don't think different cable lengths is the problem.

So having both video and audio in the same cable via HDMI won't in and of itself prevent a sync problem between video and audio. It depends on how much processing is being done to the video vs. the audio. But, I'm a neophyte and could easily be wrong about this. Would be glad to hear from other, more knowledgable members.


BTW -- on the Pioneer VSX-72/74 boxes the delay adjustment can be from 0.0 to 6.0 frames in 0.1 frame increments (this provides up to 1.0 second since 6 frames = 1 second at 30 fps -- the NTSC standard.

skipsterut

Thanks for the input. I suspect you are correct, in that the amount of video processing, which can vary depending on model and type of TV, is the culprit for an "video" lag issues. I'm guessing this is a pretty common problem since all modern receivers have some method of adjusting the delivery time of audio.

However, this thread started off with questions about an HDMI delivered signal from cable box, to receiver, to TV. Can you comment on the VSX 72/74in this area?

Does the Pioneer pass an HDMI signal all the way from cable box to TV through the receivers HDMI switch?

Thanks

As mentioned in my previous posts my cable box does not have HDMI, just DVI (which should be good enough) but it is not HDCP compliant , which is a requirement of the VSX-72/74 receivers. I have tried to pass the DVI through the HDMI on the receiver but can't due to the HDCP issue. So I can't answer your question directly.

I have had no problem so far with the receriver converting both component video and composite video and displaying them via the HDMI connection to the HDTV. Based on this experience, once I get a video source with either HDMI or DVI out that is also HDCP compliant I don't expect to have any problems switching through the receiver since at that point it doesn't even have to convert the signal -- just pass it through. But I won't know for sure until the time comes.

Hope this helps.

BTW -- As long as you have a good audio store available, why not just have them demonstrate each for you?

I passed this info on to Time Warner Columbus since I am also experience this issue with my new Yamaha RX-V2600 and the SA 8300HD DVR.

Dark Fiber said:

I passed this info on to Time Warner Columbus since I am also experience this issue with my new Yamaha RX-V2600 and the SA 8300HD DVR.

Click to expand...

I assume you mean the issue of the DVI signal from the Comcast DVR box not being HDCP compliant?

Let me know what you find out -- but my guess is that Comcast is just waiting for the DVD/HDMI market to "mature" ("any day now") to the point where it makes economic sense for them to start providing HDMI 1.2 compliant boxes as their standard-- and they never will offer DVI output that is HDCP compliant. Not that I care -- I'd rather have the HDMI output anyway. And I'm willing to wait because in the meantime I'm quite satisfied with using the component video output along with the digitial optical audio output into the VSX-72 and simply selecting these under the source setup options. The HDMI output from the receiver to my Panny TH-42PX25 HDTV works fine for video and the optical digital audio sounds great as an audio source.

When it's finally available the HDMI output will let me eliminate the digital optical cable from the DVR box to the receiver since both the video and audio will be combined rather than separate, and it will also serve up a 100% digital video signal for pass through to the HDTV. But I have to admit that I think I'd have a hard time telling the difference. I have looked at some true HDTV programs specifically designed for HDTV (e.g., INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, ESPND, etc,) in both full digital (via DVI) and via component to digital conversion through the receiver -- and I can't see the difference.

DirecTV H20

My goal with the Yamaha was to have only one video connection to my Pioneer Plasma TV so I can hide the cable through the wall. But by attempting to do so, I've found two big disadvantages.

1) Passing through the HDMI from my HD box through the Yamaha
2) Signal degradation from component video from a DVD player through the Yamaha HDMI.

1) I'm having this very same issue with the DirecTV H20 HD Tuner.

So I called DirecTV Advanced Tech Support (866-678-6664) and discussed this problem asking if there was a Firmware update. I called twice, had two different people on the line and they both gave me totally different answers.

One tech stated that they have not heard about this issue before and when questioned about the actual manufacturer, she told me it was DirecTV.

The second tech stated that they have heard about this problem before and that Hughes was the manufacturer of the H20. She also indicated that there is no upgrade yet nor has Hughes informed them when one will be issued.

I tried to find Hughes website so I can call them but had no succes when using different keywords in google. I saw a forum post elsewhere that stated there will be a H20-250 Tuner available in the spring. My guess is that it will have the issue resolved but it makes me wonder if I'm stuck with a receiver that has no Firmware update.

Recommendation - I highly recommend anyone with the same issue with DirecTV to call that direct line phone number and tell them. You will NOT be put on hold nor have to go through the switch board. One call and an actual tech support person answers. Tell them about this issue so it’s documented.

2) As for my second issue I have a question for a sanity check. Has anyone noticed that when passing a component video from a DVD player through the receiver and sending the signal through HDMI to the TV that the video signal is degraded? I tried going direct using component from the DVD player to the TV and then compared it to the HDMI through the receiver and there's a notable difference in video quality. Using the HDMI seems to degrade the signal.

That being the case, it seems to me that the purpose of using the HDMI output from the Yamaha is not offering the advantage that I actually intended to use it for. So I guess I’m going to have two video connections now;

HDMI from my HD box to the TV
Component from my DVD Player to the TV

Revelator said:

So I guess I’m going to have two video connections now;

HDMI from my HD box to the TV
Component from my DVD Player to the TV

Click to expand...

Why not have HDMI from your DVD player to the Yamaha receiver, and then component from your HD Box to the Yamaha Receiver, and then HDMI out from your receiver to the TV? This will allow you to upscale the cable signal (apparently if you have the 2600, but not if you have the 4600), and you'll be able to use HDMI switching until your cable company does a firmware upgrade that allows you to HDMI everything...

East Coaster,

I'm not sure I follow you.

My DVD player doesn't have HDMI output. So I already go from DVD component to receiver video input and then HDMI to TV for this.

But I'm concerned about using component video from the HD box though. Does the component output of the HD tuner allow it to send 1080i and/or 720p.

I know that the receiver has "upscaling" but to me it seems better to have the actual resolution coming from the HD tuner instead of a 420 signal with less resolution going to the receiver and then being interpolated to a higher resolution using the "upscaling" feature.

You are correct though, I need to use a band-aid to fix this for now. But why do I feel like I'm re-living the audio compatibility nightmare from only a few short years ago? Is it DTS, DVD-Audio, SACD, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, Dual Layer Disc................? Holy crap already!

Why does this all have to be so confusing? To me this is the most likely reason why most consumers go towards the Bose Home Theater in a Box solution. You point, you click and that's it. Quality doesn't matter to them; just simplicity.

We, on the other hand, are so obsessed with trying to get the best out of our equipment that we are willing to use work a rounds and hog-pogges to overcome manufacturers design flaws. Yet every 6-months there's a new button, whistle or "feature" that becomes another ripple of incompatibility in the grand scheme of home theater and everyone is running out to own it.