newbie low budget need advice entry Polks vs HTIB?

I get where GranteedEV and Acu are coming from. I really do. They've gone through a similar progression of gear over the years as I have, I'm sure. And now they're simply trying to impart that wisdom so that the OP doesn't "waste" his money on gear that he's just going to want to upgrade anyway - and instead, skip right to "doing it right" with dual or quad subs and high fidelity speakers that contend with the expected room acoustics along with a more robust receiver, etc.

I used to try a very similar approach to recommendations - attempting to get people to spend more money on fewer items and to really channel one's entire budget into the absolute best gear possible.

Over the years, I've changed my approach. And the reasons are several:

1) For one, there's always that part of human nature where people really never "get" something until they earn the knowledge for themselves.

I went from built-in TV speakers to an RCA HTiB to a Polk towers + Kenwood setup to Axiom towers + Yamaha + HSU sub combo to a "compact" Energy RC-mini + dual Epik subs combo to Focal Professional CMS65 + dual SVS setup. Oh and there was an Axiom EP500 sub in there too at one point

At each stage, I learned a lot about the sound quality that I prefer, how I could have better spent my money, what choices in speaker design complimented various room sizes and setups. All kinds of stuff. And I'm darn sure a lot of other helpful people on this forum have gone through a similar learning experience!

So we go through all of that and then, obviously, try to help people to spend their hard earned money in the very best way possible - very much keeping in mind all of the regrets that we went through where we wish we hadn't spent so much money on gear that ultimately left us unsatisfied!

But there's a problem with that approach, which is that the person who's listening to that advice doesn't have the same background and years of experience yet. It's a bit like having an apprentice and jumping immediately to master-level work! The person who's new to it kind of needs to go through the "lessons", so that they not only eventually wind up with the really excellent gear, but they also understand WHY it's excellent and they really appreciate it and have the comparisons and experience to be able to justify and explain it.

2) I've yet to meet the person who can buy just a front pair of speakers and not wind up getting a whole 5.1 set before they really have the budget When you want surround sound, you WANT surround sound! I tried it when I got my Axiom setup. I only had the budget for a new pair of front towers. I was going to just run without a center (the Polk center that I had suuuuucked) and use the Polk bi-pole surrounds and Polk subwoofer that I already had. After the Axiom M60Ti towers arrived, it was all of about a week before I'd bought 3 more speakers and a subwoofer on my credit card!

And I KNOW I'm not the only one. I've given that advice many times: just get your front pair for now and save up for the subwoofer, surrounds and center. Like I said, I've yet to meet the person who is actually able to wait. It just leads to a credit card purchase that you can't really afford - and that can kind of sour what should be a very happy purchase!

3) New models are always coming out and new "wow" products are always hitting the market. What would I buy today if I had around $3000 to spend on 5 speakers? Well I'd get the Aperion Verus Grand setup because they're amazing and pretty much destroy everything that's at the same price! But guess what? They didn't exist 9 years ago when I got my Axiom setup for a similar price point.

My point is that new products are always arriving and some of them move the goal posts. And you simply cannot anticipate when those products are going to happen!

4) You're always going to want to upgrade. It doesn't matter how good or expensive your gear gets. Once you're into home theater, you're ALWAYS on the lookout for your next upgrade or your next little improvement. At some point, we stop calling them upgrades and just admit that we want something new. Something different. So this idea that you can spend your money now on something that you're going to be happy with for a really long time? Well maybe that's true for a handful of people. But if you're into home theater enough to visit a forum? I'm sorry. You're already too far gone

So, like I said, I get the advice that's being given. I get where it's coming from and it's a good place with good intentions. I can still totally get behind that advice. But I've also changed, just in my own experience of offering advice and seeing how things pan out.

For me now, it's all about "checkpoints". What can you get for a really small budget? And then what's the next level of budget where it's going to really make sense to get yourself a whole new system? When you're hearing advice on which $500/pair front speakers to buy? You're not actually hearing about a $500 budget. What you're really hearing about is a $2000 or $2500 budget, but you're getting a little bit fooled by that "5 easy payments of only..." type of pricing

Maybe this OP will be the exception. Maybe he'll have the discipline to actually stick with only a pair of $500-$600 speakers until he really and truly has the money to buy more speakers. But if he does it, he'll be the first!

I'm not saying any of the advice that's been offered is "wrong". I get it and I can totally agree with it. But, as I said in my first post in this thread, I'm coming at it a little differently. When you've got a notion in your head of a BIG front projection screen and a surround sound system, but you only have $2000 (and let's be realistic, it's WAY too easy for that budget to balloon and get out of hand REALLY quickly, so I think it's important to set limits), you can do it! You can do it and you can do it pretty darn well. It's not going to be excellent. You're going to want to upgrade it at some point - count on it. But you know what? If you double your budget and spend $4000 now (when you probably really only comfortably have that $2000 budget), you're STILL going to want to upgrade THAT system. It's just the way things go.

If you really can expand your speaker budget to $2500, then by all means, go ahead and get those $500-$600 front pair to start. But I'm telling you straight up that your credit card is going to find itself with an extra 2 grand on it before you know what happened!

continued...

...continued

So my approach is, use the "checkpoints". Get the $260 7.1 speaker package because a $500 5.1 package isn't going to sound any better and a lone $500 pair is going to turn into $2500 in the blink of an eye!

The next "checkpoint" is something in the area of a $1200-$1500 5.1 system - in other words $350-ish pairs and subs. If you go cheaper than that, you're kind of wasting your money. So that's why I'm all for spending as LITTLE as possible when your budget is below that "checkpoint". If you can't get a $350 sub and $350/pair speakers, just drop right down to the SKS-HT540, which might seem crazy, but my point is - just think of how much quicker you're going to have $1500 saved up when you only spent $260 to start and actually got pretty good 7.1 sound for that ridiculously low price!

Once you get that $1200 - $1500 budget, you can start to look at some downright "good" gear. Stuff like an HSU STF-2 subwoofer, Ascend Acoustics CBM-170SE speakers (which have a KILLER tweeter for their price point), SVSound S-02 series speakers, Aperion, Axiom (yes, I still think they're pretty good despite the forums and Gene turning against them ), and maybe a little pricier subs like HSU VTF-2 MK3, Rythmik FV12 or Elemental Designs Audio A2-300 (which aren't quite as "tight" for music, but really rock the deep bass rumbles for movies!)

And if you've got a larger room or just want more headroom and really deep, powerful bass, you sort of nudge that budget up to around $2000-$2200. For example, a pair of Ascend CMT-340SE + CMT-340SE Center + CBM-170SE surrounds and dual Rythmik FV12 subs will come in around $2200. That's a really good sounding system (love those SEAS tweeters in the Ascends!) with some KILLER bass. But drop down to one, slightly lesser sub and some smaller front speakers and you're still in the $1200 - $1500 playground with very similar sound quality - it just won't play quite as loud or deep.

From there, Aperion moved the goal posts with their Verus Grand line. IMO, it used to be that you were jumping pretty large in price to really get your money's worth over the $2200 "checkpoint". But now Aperion's brought the next "checkpoint" down to a mere $3000-ish level for the 5 speakers. And with that amazing level of performance, I'd want to pair them with dual subs in the $1200/each price range - like the SVSound SB13-Plus or Rythmik FV15HP! So now you're at something like $5500 price level.

After that, it's big time diminishing returns, but there are still noteable improvements to be had. Now you're into $2000/each subs (SVSound PB13-Ultra, anyone? ) and $800 - $1000/EACH speakers. In other words, $10,000+ 5.2 packages.

And after that, the sky's the limit! I sort of "top out" at $7,600/each speakers (Focal SM11) and $12,000 subs (JL Audio Gotham), so what's that? Like a $62,000 system? lol

Anywho, that's where I feel things stand these days and it's why my advice is a little bit different from everyone else. You will get better sound quality from a $500 pair of front speakers vs. the $260 7.1 Onkyo package. There's zero doubt of that! But it's not just a $500 pair of speakers, it's a $2500 5.1 system and you're going to be absolutely itching to "complete" it before you really have the money in hand!

You'll get there. Don't worry. But I don't think there's anything wrong at all with going through the "checkpoints" for yourself and learning to really appreciate each "level" as it comes! You've got $2000 for a HUGE projection screen and surround sound. There ain't nothing wrong with that! I say, stick to your budget, don't over-extend yourself. Realize that the next "checkpoint" is at least a $1200 5.1 speaker package. And for now, just be amazed at what you can get for a mere $260 and just enjoy the fact that you'll be so much closer to the $2500 5.1 package that your probably REALLY want when you've spent so little to start with!

Just a different way to look at it, but if it makes sense to you, it's how I would do things if I had them to do over

FirstReflection = Dr. Phil.

I'm not that deep.

My mind is simple.

I give 2 recommendations.

Plan A.

Plan B.

I believe the OP could be happy with either one of those 2 recommendations.

$1K for Video system.

$1K for Audio system.

FirstReflection said:

...

1) For one, there's always that part of human nature where people really never "get" something until they earn the knowledge for themselves.
...

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Not everyone is incapable of learning from other people's mistakes.

FirstReflection said:

2) I've yet to meet the person who can buy just a front pair of speakers and not wind up getting a whole 5.1 set before they really have the budget ...

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I waited over a decade after surround came out to get surround sound, due to money. I lived with 2 channels all of that time, and I am very glad I got a decent 2 channel system instead of spending the same money on crappy surround sound.

FirstReflection said:

3) New models are always coming out and new "wow" products are always hitting the market. What would I buy today if I had around $3000 to spend on 5 speakers? Well I'd get the Aperion Verus Grand setup because they're amazing and pretty much destroy everything that's at the same price! But guess what? They didn't exist 9 years ago when I got my Axiom setup for a similar price point.

My point is that new products are always arriving and some of them move the goal posts. And you simply cannot anticipate when those products are going to happen!

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That is irrelevant to whether one should live with good 2 channel sound now or crappy surround sound now. If either way one is going to just replace it all, that does not mean that it is better to have a crappy surround system instead of a decent 2 channel system.

FirstReflection said:

4) You're always going to want to upgrade. It doesn't matter how good or expensive your gear gets. Once you're into home theater, you're ALWAYS on the lookout for your next upgrade or your next little improvement. At some point, we stop calling them upgrades and just admit that we want something new. Something different. So this idea that you can spend your money now on something that you're going to be happy with for a really long time? Well maybe that's true for a handful of people. But if you're into home theater enough to visit a forum? I'm sorry. You're already too far gone

...

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No. I have no wish to upgrade the audio portion of my surround system. If it does not fail, I will almost certainly not upgrade it, and for a receiver, I would likely downgrade (or do what I did previously, and buy a heavily discounted discontinued model).

I currently have a Yamaha RX-V2700 receiver, Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE (original U.S. version) speakers for all channels, and a pair of SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers (with a different power amp and EQ than that in the review). Of course, there is better gear that one could have, but the cost to improve at this point would be very high, and the quality I now enjoy is very good and, I think, good enough, and I have felt this way for several years now.

So you are just wrong.

Now, some people might have psychological problems such that they can never be satisfied with what they have, no matter what it is, but the proper approach to that is to deal with the psychological problems, not to just buy better equipment. After all, buying better equipment will never satisfy such a person, so it will always be a waste of money for such a person.

FirstReflection said:

...continued

So my approach is, use the "checkpoints". Get the $260 7.1 speaker package because a $500 5.1 package isn't going to sound any better and a lone $500 pair is going to turn into $2500 in the blink of an eye!

...

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Different people have different priorities, but I personally would much rather have a pair of good speakers and live with 2 channels for years rather than have lesser speakers all around. I was slow to embrace surround, and lived with 2 channel sound for over a decade after Dolby Surround was introduced to the home market. That was not because I preferred 2 channel to surround, but because I lacked the funds necessary to have a decent surround system. In my opinion, a good 2 channel system is far better than a poor surround system, and so that is what I recommend, though I recognize the fact that there are other people who would rather have a crappy surround system than a good 2 channel system, and they are free to make that purchase decision if they wish to do so.

So, my lone $500 pair of speakers did not turn into $2500 in the blink of an eye, unless you only blink about once a decade.

(Also, for my first surround system, I jumped on the "fire sale" of Carver Cinema 5.1 speakers that was going on at the time, paying very little for what should have cost a lot more; it was over 2/3 off retail price, just as Carver Corporation was disintegrating. If one could get a deal like what was going on then, going surround for that $500 would be a good idea, as they sound like well-designed speakers that cost their retail price, just as this review says.)

Additionally, if one buys a good pair of speakers and a surround receiver, one can add crappy speakers for the surround channels very cheaply by going onto Craigslist and buying some cheap used speakers for next to nothing. In my opinion, that would be better than getting the rear to match front crappy speakers; the quality of the front matters far more than the rear, both because of the sounds that are typically mixed into the front versus the rear, and because human hearing is directional and one hears better in front of one than behind one (which is one reason why there is a natural tendency to turn to face sounds when listening to something).

So, I think going with 2 good speakers is a better idea than going with 5.1 low quality speakers. Dialog will be clearer with better speakers, and music will be far superior as well. If I forgot to pay my insurance and the house I am living in burned down, and if I became poor, I would go with 2 channels until I could afford a decent surround system.

Although I have never owned a really crappy surround system, I have heard several, and I know I don't want that. But, again, some other people seem to value quantity of speakers over quality, and they may choose as they please.

Pyrrho = Philosophy.

I never took any of those Philosophy classes in college because I didn't think I was smart enough.

All I can do is memorize, not philosophize.

Crap, I can't even read.

One thing to consider is the wife-factor.

Is it a gamble to think that his wife will allow for future upgrades any time soon?

Will his wife allow for a $50 per month allowance towards the HT fund? Does he have to cut some other amenity costs?

It's easier to plan for upgrades if you have some kind of "fixed" HT funds.

But everyone has different priorities, and priorities change. My 39 yr old brother (bachelor, never married, no kids, etc.) would rather spend money on sports cars.

So he bought a Mustang Shelby? (I'm not into cars)

And he said he would just buy a pair of Infinity P363s after he heard my P362s. He does not care for subwoofers or projectors. All he wants is an AVR, 2 tower speakers, and a flat panel TV.

I did tell my brother to NEVER EVER buy Bose speaker systems, and he listens.

Also, he used to own Polk towers (the $200/pr variety ), and he hated them. He loved the P362s.

AcuDefTechGuy said:

Pyrrho = Philosophy.

I never took any of those Philosophy classes in college because I didn't think I was smart enough.

All I can do is memorize, not philosophize.

Crap, I can't even read.

One thing to consider is the wife-factor.

Is it a gamble to think that his wife will allow for future upgrades any time soon?

Will his wife allow for a $50 per month allowance towards the HT fund? Does he have to cut some other amenity costs?

It's easier to plan for upgrades if you have some kind of "fixed" HT funds.

But everyone has different priorities, and priorities change. My 39 yr old brother (bachelor, never married, no kids, etc.) would rather spend money on sports cars.

So he bought a Mustang Shelby? (I'm not into cars)

And he said he would just buy a pair of Infinity P363s after he heard my P362s. He does not care for subwoofers or projectors. All he wants is an AVR, 2 tower speakers, and a flat panel TV.

I did tell my brother to NEVER EVER buy Bose speaker systems, and he listens.

Also, he used to own Polk towers (the $200/pr variety ), and he hated them. He loved the P362s.

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Spouses can affect things, both in terms of what one does now and in the future. In my case, I had a decent 2 channel system when I got married (the one I lived with for over a decade before I got my surround system, and then moved that decent 2 channel system into our bedroom). My wife loved music, but was listening to a cheap boom box before she heard my system. She appreciated the improvement in sound very much. We did not have a lot of money at first, and so upgrades were not done, though when our CD player died, we replaced it, even though it was not terribly easy for us to do. When we got our first surround sound system, my wife was not convinced that it was a good idea, but because I knew a lot more about audio than she did, and because I did not waste money on useless crap for my audio system, she went along with the idea. I was then smart enough to let her pick the movie rental for the first experience at home, with her keeping in mind that we wanted a film with impressive sound. (I had, of course, taken the trouble to properly set it up first.) Hearing that first movie on our new surround system, she then was convinced that it was a good idea. The upgrades since then have all been with noticeable improvements, and we are at a point where I am satisfied, even though obviously there is better gear out there. We also have some 2 channel systems set up, with the living room system having Apogee Stage speakers. Those I got used really cheap (I almost feel guilty about how little I paid for them), with the idea that I would probably resell them, but they sound better than my Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE (original U.S. version) speakers that we previously had in the living room, and so we are keeping them, despite the fact that they are much more obtrusive and much less attractive than the Aurum Cantus speakers (and much more difficult to drive).

(However, I don't think the Apogee speakers sound better in the high treble; those Aurum Cantus G2 ribbon tweeters are superb and produce treble as good as I have ever heard. It is the midrange and bass where the Apogee speakers are better, and they also create a sense of space due to being dipoles.)

Right now, I am not looking to upgrade anything, though I do from time to time buy and sell used gear as a sort of hobby, and so it is possible that I will obtain something to upgrade something somewhere, though it is really doubtful at this point, as I like to keep the price down for my hobby of playing with used gear, as this way if I get stuck with something I can't resell, it will not be a significant loss.



For someone on a tight budget, they often need to decide between having a decent pair of bookshelf speakers, or having speakers that are more full range but are crappy (it costs plenty extra to have a truly full range and good speaker). When I was a teenager, I wanted to have lots of bass, and bought and sold several pairs of speakers, trying to get something that had significant bass and sounded decent. At my budget, there was no such thing, and so by my early 20's, I decided it was better to have most of the frequency range reproduced decently than to have it all as crap, so I settled on a good pair of bookshelf speakers, which were my main speakers for many years. Although I really like having deep bass (very few people buy a pair of SVS Ultra subwoofers without really liking deep bass), I would much rather have a good pair of bookshelf speakers and no subwoofer than to have a full range speaker that was crap. Now, of course, with subwoofers being common, one can add one later if one wishes, which makes for a very reasonable upgrade path for one's good bookshelf speakers.

And with surround sound, there is now the decision between one pair of good speakers versus a bunch of crappy speakers, and I have already stated what I think regarding that.



As for Bose, my wife thought the little cubes were cute, and liked how they were unobtrusive, but I explained about their sound, and she was then not interested in them. Since then, we have been to a party at someone's house in which there were the Bose cubes playing, and afterwards my wife commented (to me privately, not to our host) on how crappy they sounded. Though she believed me previously, it is nice when she knows absolutely that I was right about something.

Now, if I were the sort of person who spent thousands on power cords and magic pyramids and other foolishness, my wife would be very interested in curbing my spending on audio gear. But I never spend money we don't have (a wise decision, no matter what hobby we are talking about), and I only spend significant money on things that matter. I also am not impossible to please, and so I have pretty much reached the limit, and really don't plan on upgrading any of my audio systems (the TVs, on the other hand, I would like improved, but I am a patient man and will wait for prices to drop further, and will "suffer" with a 42" 768p main TV in the meantime).



As for philosophy, I think it is a good thing to study in order to live a good life. If you want some good practical advice, I recommend reading some Epicurus:

http://www.epicurus.net/

I am not endorsing his position absolutely, but he does give very practical advice on how to live a happy life, particularly in his Principal Doctrines and Letter to Menoeceus. Epicurus was remarkably modern for his time, as he had a primitive atomic view of the world, but that is not terribly important for his advice on how to live a happy life.

A lot of problems that people have are brought on by themselves, and one can avoid most of those problems by following Epicurus' advice. Obviously, those are not the only problems one can have, but for quite a few people, those are their biggest problems.

Wow - Pyrrho seems personally offended by my attempt to possibly help. Not quite reading my posts in the spirit in which they're intended there, Pyrrho. That's precisely the reason why I keep saying that I'm coming at this in a different way from the other, helpful advice that I, once again, have already said that I totally get and can totally still agree with.

I wrote my "alternative advice" posts because there are going to be people (in my experience, quite a few people) who are going to read what I wrote and totally nod their head because their thinking more closely follows the pattern that I described. There are also going to be people who completely disagree - like Pyrrho here. But that's the great thing about a forum! A person can get several different viewpoints and then go with the advice that makes the most sense to them!

Saying that I'm "completely wrong" is just a rude comment. I'm not "completely wrong". My advice is hopefully going to be helpful to some people for whom it rings true! Not ALL people. But then whose advice ever rings true for ALL people? Do you really think that EVERYONE out there is better served by the advice to wait a decade before ever completing their full 5.1 surround setup? Do you really think that ALL people will be happy with the gear they buy for an extended period of time before they want an upgrade or just a change? That's advice that will ring true for some people - I've zero problem with that! If you're a person who nods his or her head when you hear someone say "get a great pair of front speakers and just wait and save for the rest" then that's great advice to follow! But if you're the person who nods when I say "you're probably not going to be able to wait" then my advice is going to be more helpful.

You see? We're not all the exact same. We're not all going to agree all the time on everything. I'm just trying to help out the folks who already lean more towards my way of thinking. If they do, they're going to nod at my advice and think that Pyrrho is crazy. If they lean more towards Pyrrho's way of thinking, they're going to think that I'm crazy.

But either way, there's no need to be rude about it.

FirstReflection said:

But then whose advice ever rings true for ALL people?

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That is true.

I always thought my advices were the best, but it was only an illusion.

And if the OP does not take my advice, I will never speak to him!

FirstReflection said:

Wow - Pyrrho seems personally offended by my attempt to possibly help. Not quite reading my posts in the spirit in which they're intended there, Pyrrho. That's precisely the reason why I keep saying that I'm coming at this in a different way from the other, helpful advice that I, once again, have already said that I totally get and can totally still agree with.

I wrote my "alternative advice" posts because there are going to be people (in my experience, quite a few people) who are going to read what I wrote and totally nod their head because their thinking more closely follows the pattern that I described. There are also going to be people who completely disagree - like Pyrrho here. But that's the great thing about a forum! A person can get several different viewpoints and then go with the advice that makes the most sense to them!

Saying that I'm "completely wrong" is just a rude comment. I'm not "completely wrong". My advice is hopefully going to be helpful to some people for whom it rings true! Not ALL people. But then whose advice ever rings true for ALL people? Do you really think that EVERYONE out there is better served by the advice to wait a decade before ever completing their full 5.1 surround setup? Do you really think that ALL people will be happy with the gear they buy for an extended period of time before they want an upgrade or just a change? That's advice that will ring true for some people - I've zero problem with that! If you're a person who nods his or her head when you hear someone say "get a great pair of front speakers and just wait and save for the rest" then that's great advice to follow! But if you're the person who nods when I say "you're probably not going to be able to wait" then my advice is going to be more helpful.

You see? We're not all the exact same. We're not all going to agree all the time on everything. I'm just trying to help out the folks who already lean more towards my way of thinking. If they do, they're going to nod at my advice and think that Pyrrho is crazy. If they lean more towards Pyrrho's way of thinking, they're going to think that I'm crazy.

But either way, there's no need to be rude about it.

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Putting aside wants for a moment..some people learn the hardway and like you said, once they reach the level that we are coming from will be able to make smarter choices in the futur.

Others like Pyrro instinctively knew what he wanted and avoided the mistakes.

I think your posts were excellent as you described both ways of going at it based on personally types. Its a refreshing approach.

FirstReflection said:

Wow - Pyrrho seems personally offended by my attempt to possibly help. Not quite reading my posts in the spirit in which they're intended there, Pyrrho.

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On the contrary, it is you who are not reading posts in the spirit in which they were intended. I was not offended at all by your post, nor did I take it personally. I simply don't agree with your advice, and also pointed out some factual errors in your claims.

FirstReflection said:

That's precisely the reason why I keep saying that I'm coming at this in a different way from the other, helpful advice that I, once again, have already said that I totally get and can totally still agree with.

I wrote my "alternative advice" posts because there are going to be people (in my experience, quite a few people) who are going to read what I wrote and totally nod their head because their thinking more closely follows the pattern that I described. There are also going to be people who completely disagree - like Pyrrho here. But that's the great thing about a forum! A person can get several different viewpoints and then go with the advice that makes the most sense to them!

Saying that I'm "completely wrong" is just a rude comment. I'm not "completely wrong".

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You stated:

"You're always going to want to upgrade. It doesn't matter how good or expensive your gear gets."

This is part of your #4. But I proved that false by giving a counterexample. When you state things that are false, that makes you wrong.

Additionally, you are wrong now, as you are misquoting me. I did not use the phrase "completely wrong" as you now allege. So you are wrong yet again. These are simply plain matters of fact; you are stating things that are simply false.

FirstReflection said:

My advice is hopefully going to be helpful to some people for whom it rings true! Not ALL people. But then whose advice ever rings true for ALL people?
Do you really think that EVERYONE out there is better served by the advice to wait a decade before ever completing their full 5.1 surround setup? Do you really think that ALL people will be happy with the gear they buy for an extended period of time before they want an upgrade or just a change? That's advice that will ring true for some people - I've zero problem with that! If you're a person who nods his or her head when you hear someone say "get a great pair of front speakers and just wait and save for the rest" then that's great advice to follow! But if you're the person who nods when I say "you're probably not going to be able to wait" then my advice is going to be more helpful.

You see? We're not all the exact same. We're not all going to agree all the time on everything. I'm just trying to help out the folks who already lean more towards my way of thinking. If they do, they're going to nod at my advice and think that Pyrrho is crazy. If they lean more towards Pyrrho's way of thinking, they're going to think that I'm crazy.

But either way, there's no need to be rude about it.

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Yet again you are showing that it is really you who are failing to read things properly. I previously stated (with emphasis added now since you failed to notice without it):



And I even repeated the sentiment at the very end of my post, to keep people from missing it:



Yet you managed to miss it.


You are the one who made a universal claim about people, not me. I pointed out that your universal claim was false, and you now pretend that in doing so I was making a different universal claim about people, when I explicitly and repeatedly stated otherwise. I never pretended that everyone was like me, nor did I pretend that they have the same priorities I had. Not only that, I even clearly and explicitly stated that that was not the case, yet you pretend I stated the opposite of what I stated. You are the one who said that no one who visits these forums was ever satisfied with their surround system, no matter how good it is (note, this is a paraphrase, so I do not use quotation marks; it is in your #4). That is just wrong, and no hand waving is going to change that.

Of course, that does not entail that you must persist in being wrong, but that is up to you, not me.

The fact that my advice is different from yours is a separate issue from the factual errors in your statements. It is fine for different people to give different advice, and the reader may judge for himself or herself whose advice to take, if any. Of course, insofar as advice is based upon factual errors, it is unreliable, but that does not guarantee that the advice itself is wrong.

I am sure that many people who read my advice (if, that is, many people actually read it) will decide opposite to what I advise. They are certainly free to do so, and if their priorities are sufficiently different from mine, they are even right to do so. But before deciding, they should think carefully about what their priorities really are, and then select whatever course of action it is that best accords with their situation and personal priorities. If they don't think about it, and consider the things that really matter to them, they will increase their chances of selecting a course of action ill suited for them.

That, of course, is why it is important to explain why one gives the advice one gives, so that one may judge whether or not those considerations are important to one, as some considerations matter to some people and not others. So, for example, when someone gives as a reason for something, that the thing is small and fits easily in most rooms, that will matter to some people, but not to others, based on whether they require or desire something that isn't very large. To use a personal example, with my choice to use Apogee Stage speakers in my living room, I can readily understand why someone else, even if they found them (they are not currently made), would not choose them, as they require a substantial amount of space, both in their placement, and in listening to them for optimum sound (they are not near-field monitors, and sound best at some distance from them), which is one reason why someone may not want them, and they are not terribly efficient and 3 ohms, so they require a fairly serious amplifier to drive them, which is an added expense, and may be relevant to many people as well. Additionally, as there is no such thing as a perfect sounding speaker, their combination of virtues and vices may not suit all tastes, and consequently some people may prefer other speakers purely due to how they sound. So, a difference of situation or a difference of priorities may suggest a different course of action, but it is important to get clear about these matters in order to determine the quality of the advice, as well as the relevance to one's situation (as advice may be great for some situations but useless for others; this is why people are always asking about people's budgets, as there is little point in recommending something that someone cannot afford).

3db said:

...
Others like Pyrro instinctively knew what he wanted and avoided the mistakes.
...

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It is not instinct. I thought carefully about what mattered most to me and what my situation was, and acted accordingly. Other people in different situations or with different preferences may very well make different decisions, and they may be right to do so, if their situation and/or preferences really are different.

If it had been instinct, I would have done things differently in the very beginning. I owned some really crappy speakers with large woofers when I was a teenager, and they were mistakes, as they were not satisfying to me. However, I was able to sell them for about what I paid for them, so those mistakes were not as bad as some people's mistakes in buying gear.

When on a tight budget, questions to ask oneself are things like:


It is through analyzing and thinking about one's preferences, as well as about one's actual situation (e.g., money now, future money, space for the stuff, etc.), that one is most likely to come up with an answer that will be the most satisfying that one can get. Going into a few stereo shops and listening to different options, with all of the types of music and sound that interests one, is an important part of figuring out what it is that matters most to one.

In my case, I prefer a good 2 channel system to a poor surround system, and a good bookshelf speaker to a poor full range one. These kinds of considerations are less important to me now, as I have much more money to spend on such things, and already have a good amount of gear to build upon. But they were very important when I had little money to spend on audio, and I found the decent 2 channel system with bookshelf speakers, although not ideal, fairly satisfying. I could even live with it again, if it were necessary to do so.

But, of course, other people may have different preferences, and they should choose in accordance with their own preferences. Still, it is good for them to think carefully about what they are sacrificing for what, so that they will be more sure to get what really will be most satisfying for them.

Life is all about compromises and priorities, isn't it?

Some people drive cars that cost thrice my car and pay thrice as much on car insurance.

Some people spend $100/mo on coffe in the morning, and I spend $0.

Some people pay $30/mo for data plans, and I don't.

My in-laws spend $15,000 per year on traveling/vacations, while we spend about $5K/yr. They also live in a 1,400SF old house, while we live in a 3,000SF new house.

Some people spend $125/mo on cable television, and I spend 10% of that for cable television.

Some people spend $200/mo on liquor and tobacco, and I spend 0% on those things.

Some people spend $40/mo on gyms/workout clubs, and I spend 0% by working out at home.

Some people spend $200/mo on clothes and fashion, and I spend 0% on that; I just wear what my wife buys for me to wear.

So I get to have a HT allowance, which seems pretty fair.

Some people only care about spending $1K on the entire audio system, and they have absolutely no desire to spend more.

So I say put $280 on an AVR that retails for $1,200 when it came out. It has a 1 yr warranty. A4L is a great company. He could buy the 5 yr extented warranty for $50.

Put $800 on the speakers + subs, which I think is better than any HTIB.

$0 on liquor!? No more cool points for you.

its phillip said:

$0 on liquor!? No more cool points for you.

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Maybe he is pretty and everyone buys him drinks when he goes to the local bars.

True...that would get all the points back and then some

Pyrrho said:

Maybe he is pretty and everyone buys him drinks when he goes to the local bars.

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its phillip said:

True...that would get all the points back and then some

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That's it!

As long as I'm not the one spending!!!

Wow I was out of town a few days and pleasantly surprised with all the great advice.

I grew up in a home where we had an old tv with no speakers and the only music player I had was just an alarm clock/tape player radio with a single speaker. I was flat broke in college and lived off of 25 cent microwave burritos. But I loved going to school concerts and listening to live performances whenever I could.

My first set of speakers was a very cheap pair of sony speakers and a very used Onkyo receiver (got it off craigslist). The receiver got fried (prob my fault I had it in a tight cabinet) and the speakers weren't that great. After those speakers died we bought a bose 2.1 system that sounds OK when listening to music. The bass SUCKS. I think we paid $700 for the system. Funny thing is when I was on my business trip in Dallas this week I stopped in a Fry's Electronics (awesome store) and I was listening to some Polk SLi9's and a salesman came up and asked if I needed some help. He then asked if I was looking for home theater speakers. I said yes. He then tried to get me to look at the Bose speakers not once but twice. I had to face palm.

Pyrrho you are a rare man indeed. It takes a lot of discipline and patience to live within a structured approach to buying almost anything for a lot of people (including myself).

So I read a lot of these reviews with the wife so she can be in on the decision process. What we both agree is that we don't want to yearn for something bigger and better any time soon. The basement still has about 3 months of work left before it is ready for use. So instead of dropping $2k on the theater equipment in one month (as we were planning) we are going to spread things out and open up the budget a little.

So September we are going to buy a nice receiver. October we are going to purchase a pair of floor standing speakers (still coming up with a good way to protect them from my kids--maybe a custom built case I can slip over them? I'm thinking little fingers poking the cones). Budget on this is a lot more open. It won't take much to blow the little bose speakers out of the water. I just want to buy something I won't yearn for something more for a very long time. My wife was actually OK with auditioning the Aperion Verus Grand Towers. We can buy it all with cash if we spread it out over the next few months. After that we will buy the projector since the basement should be ready by November (hopefully).

After that we will go from there.

I am sure a lot of you are laughing--this guy went from a $500 total speaker budget to now talking about Aperion VGT's. In a way FirstReflection was right in that the fact that I have been lurking on audiophile forums for months separates me from the majority of folks that walk into Best Buy and purchase home theater speakers. Sometimes ignorance is bliss (and cheaper) =)

So I suppose the new question is what kind of receiver do I need to be shopping for for my 12'x12' theater space?

Right now the Onkyo TX-NR809 looks like a solid win at Amazon for $799 with the network feature I am looking for and looks like a nice jump from the TX-NR609 ($399 amazon) I was looking at earlier.

It seems like the next price point for most other brands is $1000-1200.
The Pioneer SC-27 Elite is $1099.00 (amazon)
The Marantz SR6006 is $1199.95 (amazon)
The Marantz SR7005 is $1199.99 refurbished (Accessories4less)

Anyway, thank you all for all your comments. I read them all (most multiple times). I will make sure I let you know what I finally end up with and post some pictures in a few months when it is all done.

I would get whatever is cheapest and has the features you want, and then supplement it with a 2 or 3 channel separates amp someday. As long as it has decent preamp outs, this will be the most cost-effective route in the long run. expensive receiver amps still can't match a good Emotiva XPA-2 etc.

I like marantz receivers personally. The SR6004 doesn't have networking though, so you'll have to spend a good bit more for that one feature.

The Yamaha RX-A1000 (retail $1,100) for $630 also has Ethernet:

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A1000-7-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B003XDU48O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314419287&sr=8-1

Home Theater Magazine just reviewed it.

It has amazing measurements. It's one of those AVRs that makes me stop and say "Wow!"

And Yamaha AVRs may have better reliability history than the Onkyo AVRs.

Tadsbud said:

My wife was actually OK with auditioning the Aperion Verus Grand Towers.

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Well here is a comparison between the Aperion vs. KEF from HTM:

The Q900’s listening-window measures +2.25/–0.65 dB from 200 Hz-10 kHz.
The Q600c’s listening-window measures +2.38/–3.00 dB from 200 Hz-10 kHz.
The Q100’s listening-window measures +1.90/–2.20 dB from 200 Hz-10 kHz.

The Verus Grand Tower’s listening-window measures +0.59/–2.21 dB from 200 Hz-10 kHz.
The Verus Grand Center’s listening-window measures +2.40/–2.74 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.
The Verus Grand Bookshelf’s listening-window measures +2.79/–1.83 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

Conclusion: they are pretty darn close! Both have great frequency response.


KEF Q900 for $570 each:
http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=KEF+Q900