Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Planned

croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
I would love to see a measurement of the Seaton Submersive. WIll this one be in the mix?
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
It looks like the list has already been chosen. There is a limit of 5 subwoofers.

Hats off again to the companies that are willing to put their product through this type of testing and subjective listening evaluations. It shows you have a lot of confidence in your company and product.

I am willing to bet they will be all excellent performers and a lot will depend on your budget, application and needs which will suit one best.
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Hi everyone:

Gene and I actually had a very nice email dialogue about the “ultimate subwoofer shoot-out”. The PB13-Ultra was requested by Gene and he said there was only a spot for five subwoofers and that Audioholics had limited resources/time.

Since the 2 meter ground plane data on the PB13-Ultra is publicly available at AV Talk and at HT Shack, I recommended to Gene that Audioholics test five other subwoofers and simply reference the data set for the PB13-Ultra, which would in essence make it a six subwoofer comparison.

While Gene declined that option (citing the need for Audioholics to generate its own test data), I can confirm both the HT Shack and AV Talk data sets are accurate and match our own internal data. My point was why generate yet another redundant data set on the PB13U when a different subwoofer (for which no data exists) could be tested instead?

I also recommended that Gene restructure the shoot-out for a series of comparisons by subwoofer product class/price – maybe something along these lines:

- Small sealed subs (with a price range).
- Mid-size sealed subs (with a price range).
- Large sealed subs (with a price range).

- Small bass reflex subs (with a price range).
- Mid-size bass reflex subs (with a price range).
- Large (with a sensible size limit) bass reflex subs (with a price range).

We know SPL drag racing hasn’t lost its appeal in the forums, and while an “ultimate subwoofer shootout” with no size/weight/price limits might provide fodder for bench racing, it really doesn’t provide the average consumer with a lot of useful information that he can rely upon to make informed purchases.

Let’s face it, everyone loves to talk about monstrous lunatic fringe subwoofers, but relatively few people actually purchase them. It’s quite easy to design/build a WOMD when there are no size/price/weight limits, and SVS has several prototype subwoofers which positively annihilate a PB13-Ultra. That doesn’t prove anything except that the laws of physics are still intact.

Instead, I recommended to Gene that Audioholics test/review the types of subwoofers which would be volume sellers for the average/typical A/V consumer. I think Gene is considering this, as the contest rules are already morphing since his original post.

If Gene/Audioholics holds a series of subwoofer comparisons categorized by acoustic alignment, size, and price range (which is how most consumers narrow down the candidates when considering a subwoofer purchase), SVS will be there.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Thanks Ed as I enjoyed our dialogue. I actually did take your comments into consideration and restricted the shootout to subwoofers that are all under $3k/ea and 5 ft^3 or less. Also all 5 subs are ported except the Klipsch which has a passive radiator and could arguably be categorized as a ported sub.

I disagree about separating sealed vs ported subs but agree we should compare similarly priced and sized products.

It would have been nice to include the PB12plus but maybe we can try you again in the next round....
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
and SVS has several prototype subwoofers which positively annihilate a PB13-Ultra.
Wanna sell me one of those? I love my ultra dearly, but would love even more to have something better from SVS.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I just looked over the Klipsch specs of their new sub. Although its looks like a really nice sub, its much smaller than the other 4 in this comparison. Thus I decided to hold off on that product in this comparison.

Earthquake emailed me that they are interested in being in this shootout but now I am also interested in the Salk sub (assuming the box volume is under 5ft^3).

What would you guys prefer for the 5th sub?
  • Earthquake
  • Salk
  • other option???
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I didn't even consider them but that sub looks nice. I can't figure out the dimensions or pricing though...
$995 for standard finishes, $100 for premium up-charge. I emailed Jim for dimensions.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks Ed as I enjoyed our dialogue. I actually did take your comments into consideration and restricted the shootout to subwoofers that are all under $3k/ea and 5 ft^3 or less. Also all 5 subs are ported except the Klipsch which has a passive radiator and could arguably be categorized as a ported sub.

I disagree about separating sealed vs ported subs but agree we should compare similarly priced and sized products.

It would have been nice to include the PB12plus but maybe we can try you again in the next round....
I agree with you basically on what should and should not be compared. I don't care whether my subwoofer is ported or not; I care how it performs and what it costs. For some of us, size is not much of an issue, just price and performance. If there were two identical performers at the same price, with one smaller or lighter than the other, I would rather have the smaller or lighter one (I have been known to occasionally move things), but I do not want to give up performance or pay extra for that. This, by the way, is why I really like my SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers (discontinued models that are unpowered and have a 12" woofer in a cylinder), as they perform well and are not that heavy, so moving them is easily done with one person. And by being taller than most subwoofers, they don't take up too much floor space, so I have room for more than one. I wish SVS would still make unpowered models, but I have not sent them an email or anything about it, as honestly it is doubtful if I will ever upgrade from my pair of CS-Ultras (they are really good, and it would be very expensive to get an improvement, which I am not convinced that I really need anyway). But if I were in the market for one, I would send them an email and ask if they could make one (or more) unpowered for me of their Ultra cylinders. I really like having a separate amplifier driving them. I hated having to go behind my old powered subwoofer to look at the settings or make any adjustments. Plus, this way, if the amplifier ever dies, it is easy to replace with anything I want. But I digress.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I just looked over the Klipsch specs of their new sub. Although its looks like a really nice sub, its much smaller than the other 4 in this comparison. Thus I decided to hold off on that product in this comparison.

Earthquake emailed me that they are interested in being in this shootout but now I am also interested in the Salk sub (assuming the box volume is under 5ft^3).

What would you guys prefer for the 5th sub?
  • Earthquake
  • Salk
  • other option???
Gene, Jim just emailed me back asking on the details of the shootout and noted you emailed him also. As not to reply in unison with you, could you please provide the necessary info to him to ensure his participation in the program?

Scott
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, Jim just emailed me back asking on the details of the shootout and noted you emailed him also. As not to reply in unison with you, could you please provide the necessary info to him to ensure his participation in the program?

Scott
His sub is only about 3.1 ft^3 (14" x 16" x 24") so its smaller than the others. I will discuss with him if he still wants to participate but I am trying to keep size nearly the same for all products.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks Ed as I enjoyed our dialogue. I actually did take your comments into consideration and restricted the shootout to subwoofers that are all under $3k/ea and 5 ft^3 or less. Also all 5 subs are ported except the Klipsch which has a passive radiator and could arguably be categorized as a ported sub.

I disagree about separating sealed vs ported subs but agree we should compare similarly priced and sized products.
This was the point of my earlier post. Many of us are curious about sealed vs ported at the $2-3k level but it often takes a couple of sealed subs to equal the SPLs of a single large ported sub so under the rules there was no way to level the playing field.

Perhaps at some point in the future Audioholics will undertake a "solution" type shootout. Best ~$2K solution, best ~$3K solution, best ~$4K solution. People shop to a budget - even Audioholics. To keep the playing field level between single mega-subs and multiples I'd cluster the multiples - either stacked or side by side. A sample $2k-ish field might be a pair of Epik Empires vs a PB13-Ultra vs eD's A7-700 and A7s-650 vs a pair of Hsu ULS-15. Judging them technically (frequency response and SPL) and listening tests with both music and movies. Four judging categories and a best in show. That's useful shopping information. A $1,200 box vs a $12,000 box isn't. Anyway just food for thought.
 
J

jgeorg5

Audioholic Intern
Since we have FunkyWaves and Rythmik, why not another kit sub builder, AE Speakers?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
His sub is only about 3.1 ft^3 (14" x 16" x 24") so its smaller than the others. I will discuss with him if he still wants to participate but I am trying to keep size nearly the same for all products.
Why does the size matter so much to you? If the "ultimate" subwoofer happens to be small, what is the problem?
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Since we have FunkyWaves and Rythmik, why not another kit sub builder, AE Speakers?
I know funkywaves uses AE drivers, maybe he'll go that route...;). I would like to see that or maybe he(Gene) could contact John over at AE since another big bad boy is required...:D
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
His sub is only about 3.1 ft^3 (14" x 16" x 24") so its smaller than the others. I will discuss with him if he still wants to participate but I am trying to keep size nearly the same for all products.
If there still is a spot open I think the Submersive would be a very interesting stand in for a lot of people on the forums here.

Dual-opposed [sealed] 15" which now has an upgraded 2400w amp.

24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H

 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Why does the size matter so much to you? If the "ultimate" subwoofer happens to be small, what is the problem?
The problem is physics. Small subs will have limited output.

The other problem is manufacturers. They want nearly identical products from each company to be compared which is at best a lofty goal.

Our shootout consists of subs between $1299 to $2700 and box sizes between 4 to 5 ft^3. That is as close as I could come both in terms of manufacturers willing to participate and product selections. To have identical sized and priced products with identical driver size and bass alignment IMO would be extremely boring.
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Thanks Ed as I enjoyed our dialogue. I actually did take your comments into consideration and restricted the shootout to subwoofers that are all under $3k/ea and 5 ft^3 or less. Also all 5 subs are ported except the Klipsch which has a passive radiator and could arguably be categorized as a ported sub.

I disagree about separating sealed vs ported subs but agree we should compare similarly priced and sized products.

It would have been nice to include the PB12plus but maybe we can try you again in the next round....
Hi Gene:

The only reason I feel bass reflex and sealed subs should be compared separately is that the intended application for each type of acoustic alignment is generally quite different.

Our sealed line-up is designed for use in small to mid-size rooms where a significant amount of room gain (transfer function) is present. We optimized the anechoic roll-off profile of the SB12-NSD and SB13-Plus (the first two of the SB line to launch) to take advantage of this room gain, and the result is generally a flat in-room response (starting below the modal/pressure transition frequency) to very deep frequencies.

OTOH, our vented line-up was designed for a flat (critically damped) anechoic FR to the system corner frequency, and will work well in larger rooms where less room gain is present and more sheer SPL capability is needed from the subwoofer at the deepest frequencies.

Of course that doesn't mean one of our bass reflex subs can't be used in a smaller room - they can. We included a room gain compensation menu option in the new DSP amps for Plus and Ultra models which is adjustable for both slope and frequency.

The room gain comp option isn't available on the NSD amp, but the near universal presence of auto-EQ systems on AVRs (particularly Audyssey MultEQ which does a good job with the sub channel) will usually scrub off any rising low-end response (resulting from room gain) from our bass reflex NSD models.

So in summary our sealed and reflex subs are intended for different applications and measure quite differently anechoically by design. If you are going to mix/match acoustic alignments in your comparisons, then I would recommend that Audioholics develop some type of weighted scoring system which takes into account the size vs. low-end performance trade-off generally seen when comparing a relatively small sealed sub to a much larger reflex sub. If all that counts in the scoring is SPL vs. frequency, then the reflex model will almost always score higher.

Regardless, the PB12-Plus is about 5.7 ft^3 external, which is a bit larger than your most recently stated size limit (I thought I read 6 ft^3 earlier in the thread). If there is an opening for another sub, and you want to stretch the size limit a bit, LMK - but that is strictly your call.

If you do want to test the PB12-Plus please note it has three tunes - 20 Hz reflex, 16 Hz reflex, and Sealed and I recommend testing for all three. It has a nice roll-off profile in sealed mode and measures really well in smaller rooms which have room gain. Max SPL in the deeper frequency ranges in sealed mode is naturally lower than the reflex modes, but that is generally not a concern in small rooms. Point being, it's a flexible subwoofer which can be used in a variety of settings and applications depending on the needs of the customer.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
If there still is a spot open I think the Submersive would be a very interesting stand in for a lot of people on the forums here.

Dual-opposed [sealed] 15" which now has an upgraded 2400w amp.

24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H
They look nice, but I can't even find a website for them. The products have to be from established companies with a website and distribution to at least USA and Canada (our biggest readership).
 
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