Def Techs, B&Ws, Focals Audition.

Hello there, I am very new here, but have read alot!

I have been reading alot on def techs and had went to a few places to listen to various speakers.
BP7000,BP7004, Various Focals and B&W 683.

The B&W 683 was by FAR the worst sounding speaker of the bunch. The Focals sounded better, where as the Def techs grabbed the focal sound.. made it sound better AND gave it an incredible soundstage. The speakers.. even the BP7004s went transparent to me. I was blown away.

I've always wanted a set of B&W's for years, I almost feel sick to my stomach because I will not be buying B&W's.

Why does everyone bash Def Techs? Are they a modern Bose 901? Ive heard the 901s before... They sound horrible!

I really need some reinforcement with these def techs.. I really dont understand why so many people like that 2d boring B&W sound! AcuDefTechGuy How do your BP7000s compare to your BP7001 rear channels? How do the BP7000s compare to other BP towers? Im gonna sample the 7000 again vs other BP's (7002,7004) and see if the price is worth the difference in sound.

I really plan on re-auditioning the 683's, I really want to like them. Any constructive suggestions would be very appreciated.
I have alot of questions here.. but I joined up just to ask u guys these! Thanks in advance!

I love def techs, that's all I have, except for my subs... BP10s are good, the BP7006s are better, and my BP7001SCs are downright amazing. It's all about speaker placement with the def techs.

I've got some DT 7006BP's in the living room. They make for excellent 'recreational' speakers, I can listen to them for hours on end. They do have noticably higher distortion in the bass than other speakers I have (they're really only good to 30hz or so, with signifigant distortion, but its only noticeable during direct comparison), and they do require lots of room to breathe due to thier bipolar setup, but they are thoroughly enjoyable. The bipolar trickery and solid construction help them have a most un-boxy presentation, always a nice feature, one which you just experienced. I may not choose them for ultimate critical listening, but for casual listening they are just fantastic. I would imagine their bigger brothers are similar, only better. I'm not a fan of d'appolito driver arrangements for two channel stereo/biggest sweet-spot use, so I would suggest the 7006 and 7004 to the bigger models if it's for strictly stereo use.

I suspect that DT gets bagged here due to exaggerated specs they publish, and they are only a half-step in the direction to the ultimate open baffle/dipolar setup (a la Orions), with slightly sloppy bass relative to the ideal. Lots of idealists here at audioholics, don't you know. Also, DT controls pricing, so deals are hard to come by. Doesn't make 'em bad speakers, but maybe not the best absolute values. They do some things direct radiators like the B&W and Focals just can't do, like presenting a compellingly deep (if artificial) soundstage, and they have very broad 'sweet spots'. They're also quite efficient and easy to drive for just about any amp/receiver, and possess a bit of that 'punch' which seems exclusive to high efficiency speakers. Hence the "excellent 'recreational' speaker" description. I really like mine.

Don't be too upset that the B&W's don't measure up. Pick what makes your ears/brain happiest.

ski2xblack said:

I suspect that DT gets bagged here due to exaggerated specs they publish, and they are only a half-step in the direction to the ultimate open baffle/dipolar setup (a la Orions), with slightly sloppy bass relative to the ideal. Lots of idealists here at audioholics, don't you know. Also, DT controls pricing, so deals are hard to come by. Doesn't make 'em bad speakers, but maybe not the best absolute values.

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I'll add that a lot of people shy off because of the way the Best Buy/Magnolia pushes them. I suspect that the margins and commissions are pretty high because if you listen to one of their sales people you'd think that the only speakers worth listening to were DefTechs. I'd want to listen to MartainLogans and Bostons and they'd always push the DefTechs like a used car salesman pushing you to buy the wreck with the wheels falling off and swearing to you that it was owned by a little old lady that only drove it on Sundays. That will put me off every time. This isn't a slight against DefTechs just an observation of those who sell them.

They do some things direct radiators like the B&W and Focals just can't do, like presenting a compellingly deep (if artificial) soundstage, and they have very broad 'sweet spots'.

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I lived with direct radiating speakers for 20 years and your description of the sound "style" of reflecting speakers in general is spot on. The down side is placement is hyper critical. You must have a room who's size, layout and, acoustics match the assumptions of the speaker's designers and has plenty of space around the speakers. In my experience direct radiating speakers can be much more forgiving of placement limitations within a room.

Don't be too upset that the B&W's don't measure up. Pick what makes your ears/brain happiest.

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Great advice! While auditioning them the OP needs keep in mind placement possibilities/issues at home, and double check the store's return policy.

Yep. With Deftechs the trick is placement, placement, placement! Make sure to get the right size model that is appropriate for your room. I paid no attention to placement or size when I bought them

I myself did not have much luck dialing in a pair of BP 2006's, but they were pretty good for casual listening. I have since gone on in a totally different direction (omni's).

Def Tech towers are my favorite go to product for 8 ohm tower speakers.

If you can go up to the Mythos STS towers and can pass on the bipolar technology you will be blown away by the dynamic tonal range and extremely clean sound.

Enjoy!

-Robert

But why pass on the bipolar technology? Do you fear it because it reminds us all of bose 901s?

Docks said:

But why pass on the bipolar technology? Do you fear it because it reminds us all of bose 901s?

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Not a simple question to answer as this takes a detailed conversation. Here's my options very basically explained.

Bipolar towers have rear firing speakers so this type of speaker needs to be placed anywhere from 6" to no more than 2' from the back wall. The closer to the wall will deliver a more base, further a more defined sound.

Mythos STS towers have all speaker forward facing and can therefore be placed anywhere that you select to perform the best in any given room size or shape.

Mythos towers are tighter and somewhat more accurately reproduce the sound and the locations of the sounds to the mastered recording, but Bipolar speakers are also preferred by audiophiles as they reproduce music as it would sound in concerts.

-Robert

Docks said:

But why pass on the bipolar technology? Do you fear it because it reminds us all of bose 901s?

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FYI the old 901s still have a cult following. I'm not sure why. They always sounded muffled to me, like someone threw a towel over them. Probably because most of the sound was muffled from bouncing off a wall, with just a few front firing full range drivers to lend a bit of crispness. But that's beside the point.

I have agree with DTV TiVo Dealer's recommendation. It's just a PIA to have to make your apartment hunting, home buying, and seating decisions based on the placement assumptions of the speaker designer instead of what you like or find comfortable. In addition if you live in an apartment or condo having a rear firing speaker hammering a shared wall won't make you popular.

The thing that got me so caught with the Def Techs was the soundstage. I swear i had goosebumps i was so blown away. It was the first time I SAW the speakers disappear! My girlfriend who wasnt too excited to come along, was actually very excited after she heard them as well.

Im going to re-visit a few places with a cd with a larger selection of tunes and see if the result is the same.

Do any of you guys have experience with zaph audio stuff? How does it sound?

Docks, where do you live?

-Robert

Hello again Docks and Robert-

Docks, this is mainly for you, but purely as food for thought, as this is strictly based on my own experience. Take it for what it's worth...

I currently have three two-channel systems running in the house. Each follows a distincly different approach speaker-wise, from fairly standard direct radiators, to a controlled directivity approach, to the dipole approach.

The direct radiator speakers are small sealed monitors with a pair of sealed subs, with far more powerful amps driving than probably required. Positioning in relation to room boundaries is the most flexible of the three approaches. The system is mercilessly revealing, dynamic, and manages to pull off the 'speaker disappearing act'. Pardon the subjective description, but it is akin to a 1080p high def video presentation, but somewhat two-dimentional.

The 'controlled directivity' approach (and keep in mind this is only the half assed stuff I can afford for such experimentation) requires attention to boundaries, simply because the speakers require the reinforcement for low frequencies. To continue the subjective analogies, they produce an IMAX like presentation of the sound, bigger and badder than my direct radiators, but still somewhat two dimentional. (In it's favor, it can crank so loud you are literally envoloped in sound. Not perfect, but awfully fun...this system gets a lot of use.)

The bipolar system is the closest I presently have to producing the 'musicians in the room with you' spookiness. I've got mine almost 3' from the back wall, the 'disappearing act' is almost unavoidable, and whatever flaws may be there, it's extremely musically enjoyable.

The next experiment will be an open baffle design...can't wait to begin that one!

As the two-channel-centric freak of nature I am, my preferences may differ from yours, but hopefully this is interesting food for thought if nothing else. If two channel is your intended use and you have the room, I would recommend the bipolars. Plus, if you are going to limit yourself to direct radiator type speakers, the Mythos occupy a price range that includes lots of great alternatives.

Good luck, Docks, and let us know how it goes.

Thanks for the great replies guys!
I live in Canada BTW, so these speakers are all overpriced here.
I will likely goto the US to get a set.

Im going to make another cd this week, i currently have 6 days off. Take it, and re-audition the BP7000s to the focals and a few of the others they may have at the place here.

IMO the 683s didnt compare, maybe 8 series? I honestly dont have a price range yet... Im just trying to find something I really love. So far the DefTechs are it.

I guess my big thing is that, I want the soundstage of the def techs, but accuracy of a monopolar speaker. But to my ears the Def techs sounded amazingly accurate.

Docks said:

Hello there, I am very new here, but have read alot!

I have been reading alot on def techs and had went to a few places to listen to various speakers.
BP7000,BP7004, Various Focals and B&W 683.

The B&W 683 was by FAR the worst sounding speaker of the bunch. The Focals sounded better, where as the Def techs grabbed the focal sound.. made it sound better AND gave it an incredible soundstage. The speakers.. even the BP7004s went transparent to me. I was blown away.

I've always wanted a set of B&W's for years, I almost feel sick to my stomach because I will not be buying B&W's.

Why does everyone bash Def Techs? Are they a modern Bose 901? Ive heard the 901s before... They sound horrible!

I really need some reinforcement with these def techs.. I really dont understand why so many people like that 2d boring B&W sound! AcuDefTechGuy How do your BP7000s compare to your BP7001 rear channels? How do the BP7000s compare to other BP towers? Im gonna sample the 7000 again vs other BP's (7002,7004) and see if the price is worth the difference in sound.

I really plan on re-auditioning the 683's, I really want to like them. Any constructive suggestions would be very appreciated.
I have alot of questions here.. but I joined up just to ask u guys these! Thanks in advance!

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Without a true double-blinded test, I can't say if the BP7000s are significantly better than the BP7001s.

The built-in subwoofers of the BP7000s are better than the BP7001s'. The midranges & tweeters are suppose to be the same.

I have also listened to the B&W 800D at one B&W dealer. I was initially afraid that if I listen to the 800D, that I would end up longing for them and hating my BP7000SCs. But the opposite happened.

It's not that the B&Ws were bad. It was just that I thought my BP7000s sounded better overall!

Just looking at the specs alone, I knew that the BP7000s had much better bass.

But the other specs indicate that the 800D would kill the BP7000 in the midrange & trebble: flatter FR, absolutely no cabinet resonance, etc.

However, my ears did not agree with this rationale. I thought the BP7000 sounded at least as good in the midrange and trebble, if not better.

But I suppose everyone is different and every room is different. If my BP7000s were in a different room, the 800Ds might have blown it away. Who knows?

All I know is that my BP7000s sounded A LOT better in my room than the 800Ds sounded in THAT ONE show room.

Why they Bash DefTechs

And why do some people bash DefTechs?

1) The DefTech website is done by morons who have decided to use frequency response without the traditional +/- 3dB tolerance. For example, they listed the BP7000 as 11 Hz - 30 kHz. But if you request a +/-3dB FR by email, they will tell you that the BP7000 is 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB. Home Theater Magazine measured the BP7000SC as 22 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3db & 21 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 6dB.

2) The BP speakers are more difficult to place than direct-front-radiating speakers. The BP speakers require more room & placement tweaking. Some people listen to improperly placed DefTech BP speakers and think they sound horrible.

Our techs find the Def Tech Bipolar speakers easy to place. Of course they are designed to be placed in front of a wall so the back firing speakers can reflect off the back wall.

The key to getting the base as you like it is directly tied to the distance the speakers are from the back wall. The closer the tighter the base and as you move the towers further from the wall the base increases.

-Robert

DTV TiVo Dealer said:

Our techs find the Def Tech Bipolar speakers easy to place. Of course they are designed to be placed in front of a wall so the back firing speakers can reflect off the back wall.

The key to getting the base as you like it is directly tied to the distance the speakers are from the back wall. The closer the tighter the base and as you move the towers further from the wall the base increases.

-Robert

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I thought the bass also depends on how close to the side walls as well as the rear walls.

Correct ^^. Sorry I left this out.

-Robert

DTV TiVo Dealer said:

The closer the tighter the base and as you move the towers further from the wall the base increases.

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That must be an exception due to the speakers coupling to modes in your particular room. The opposite would be the norm in most rooms, i.e., the bass would increase with placement closer to walls and decrease further away...which might be perceived as a "tightening" of the bass response.

DTV TiVo Dealer said:

The key to getting the base as you like it is directly tied to the distance the speakers are from the back wall.

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Actually, with a bipole (or dipole), the distance to the wall behind the speaker (usually referred to as the "Front" wall, because you the listener, are facing it) is crucial for all frequencies. We get spatial cues primarily above 1khz and if the reflections are not delayed sufficiently, they will blur the imaging, rather than be perceived as spaciousness. The minimum distance for the required delay time, is about 3' from the front wall (behind the speaker).
Which is why Bipoles (and dipoles) won't make much of a dent in the marketplace (as Paradigm, Energy, etc. found out).

cheers,

AJ

AJinFLA said:

...The minimum distance for the required delay time, is about 3' from the front wall (behind the speaker)...

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I agree completely.

I have mine about 3' fron the front wall and 4' from side walls.

When I first got my BP7000SC, I had them about 12" from the front walls and they sounded very FUNNY - NOT good.

As I moved them to 24", they sounded better.

And then 36" sounded even better.

If I had more room, I would even try 4' from the front wall.