panny vs. sammy & '09 vs '10

STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Some of you may remember I was looking to purchase two new TV's last year. Well I bought one...a 42" Panasonic S1 plasma for our bedroom. The original plan was to see if the S1 was "good enough" for me and if it was I would buy a 58" (or 65" maybe) for the family room. If not I would buy up to the 58" V10. Well the S1 seems a little "soft" but I have enough hours on it to self calibrate it with the S&M blu-ray disc...I need to get to that.:eek:

Then the whole Panasonic black level debacle and "floating blacks" surfaced and it stopped me in my tracks...:confused: Do I get a 2009 with the black level rising too quickly or do I get a 2010 and deal with the "floating blacks" deal???

What about Samsung Plasmas?

When I go into stores I've been looking and comparing the Panasonic & Samsung plasmas and the Samsungs look "sharper" and yes I know in store can be deceptive but I find the Sammys sharper more of the time. (multiple stores) ...but the Pannys are supposed to be better...I wish I could have a 4-5 TV shoot out in my room.

Just for the record I've also looked at LCD's and some a nice but the nice ones aren't perfect either and are more expensive. If I had a bright room and more money some of the Sonys look pretty nice.

A clean sharp picture is most important to me. I am bothered by soft images. They look out of focus and my eyes want to keep adjusting. Second would be Color accuracy, blacks and contrast and I would think are equally important to each other for realism. I watch everything from sports to network TV to DVD & Bluray movies and concerts.

So, what to do? I'm looking for some sound down to earth reasoning here. What do AH'ers think on the current TV landscape?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
State a budget. Because you never know if someone can land a Kuro at the price for you. Historically, Panny over Sammy for blacks/contrast, but Sammy wins for color accuracy. I would say Panny wins for reliability, but maybe that gap has narrowed, I honestly don't know.

I honestly don't get the sharper thing sometimes. There are over 2 million pixels every .04 second, and most people cannot discern all of these pixels anyways for the size of screen they have bought, for the distance they sit. I think it's mostly source based, if you asked me.

I'm not sure what's going on with rising blacks. This is what I think though: that most people would never know if they didn't read it on the boards. ESPECIALLY if they don't watch movies in a lights off bat cave.

And sometimes, having a higher bottom level of black might lead someone to think they are actually getting better shadow detail. There is also the benefit (the intended one) that your pic will be more consistent over its lifetime, particularly for the great majority people who don't calibrate. (Take a look in the mirror). ;) Lastly, I've been led to believe that technically, we might not be losing any contrast at all, as if the voltage increases and MLL rises, the whole finite contrast range is simply moved up.

IOW, the only real thing to worry about is if the whole contrast range has moved up so severely to make the MLL look grey. Now honestly, how many people have complained about grey blacks. I think I've read of one person, and yes a person in some sort of cave. I'm not saying it's not more prevalent somewhere . . . but I wonder if it's overblown.

Now, I ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND for the videophile freak, this could be entirely unacceptable. I'd still probably get a Panny if I can't land a Kuro.

Anyways, if it's me, I get a Pioneer or Pana.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
I knew you'd be the first to respond!:D Thank you!:)

Budget...Well I'm a Pennsylvania Dutch man so that means I'm cheap and I still have to get a stand (I can't wall mount) and a BR player and a HDMI receiver. (I'm used to my RX-V2500 so the receiver thing won't be cheap either) Let's say around $2000 for the TV.

I'm guessing the sharpness/softness thing is either a processing thing or an anti-reflective coating thing or both...I don't know...Maybe I'm nuts.
 
Patrukas777

Patrukas777

Senior Audioholic
I would get the Panny V10...I've had a Samsung LED LCD, Samsung Plasma...and now I have a Panny V10 and G15. I love my Panny's (that sounds funny lol). On the 09 Panny, make sure you get the latest firmware update, it corrects the greenish tint in THX mode. Once its fixed, a beautiful, accurate picture appears. I'm so content with my Panny's THX mode that I don't plan on getting it calibrated. You can pick up a 58'' V10 for under 2k if you shop around. I talked Best Buy down under 2k. Great TV for the value.
 
T

The Dukester

Audioholic Chief
If it were me, I would either find a Pio 6020 or, if you can wait, see what the Pannys look like with their next gen plasma. Supposedly the black level rise will be fixed and they will start using Kuro tech in all but the low end units from what I have read. Right now I still don't think you can beat the Pioneers, especially the Elites but you will have a real hard time finding a 60" Elite these days. Plenty of 50" Elite monitors around at the Magnolia stores though.
From what I have seen, the Sammys do have more accurate colors and a slightly sharper pic, but I only get to see and play with them at the stores as they allow.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks guys!

Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
As Dukester stated, I meant to imply that you should see what the new Pana models are/will be going for.

IMO, for anything 65" or less, they have been making the best value in displays for years now. Pretty much the entire time I've even been in this hobby, at the least. No, I've never owned one.
 
G

Gov

Senior Audioholic
I have a 58V10 with about 1300 hours on it now. The black levels have risen on it, but it is still acceptable in my eyes. The only time it is noticable is when watching a dark scene in a dark environment. During normal viewing it is undetectable, but in a dark room with little to no lighting it becomes apparent.
For the most part the PQ on this display is stunning to say the least!
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
I have a 58V10 with about 1300 hours on it now. The black levels have risen on it, but it is still acceptable in my eyes. The only time it is noticable is when watching a dark scene in a dark environment. During normal viewing it is undetectable, but in a dark room with little to no lighting it becomes apparent.
For the most part the PQ on this display is stunning to say the least!
Thanks Gov. I think I'm going to go with a 2009 Panny. Now I have to figure out 58" or 65" and S or V. It will depend on what I decide receiver/stand/BR player I need to go with.:)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks Gov. I think I'm going to go with a 2009 Panny. Now I have to figure out 58" or 65" and S or V. It will depend on what I decide receiver/stand/BR player I need to go with.:)
While I would still take a '09 V10 over most any display yet made, I would still wait for the new generation, just because. It would shock me if they didn't look more carefully, or designed more carefully, the rising voltage schedule, particularly for their high end.

And I know BMX has said it at least once, but he wouldn't recommend buy anything now unless it had 3D capability. I'll let you take that how you want to.

I've now checked out my friend's 65V10, and I can say that for a living room, it is a commitment, but very impressive. Pretty awesome. Maybe I can take a pic for you when I'm over there next.
 
Patrukas777

Patrukas777

Senior Audioholic
I have pics of my HT on here Member System Gallery. I have the 58'' V10 in my living room and its mounted on a tv stand with attached mount. I think it worked out perfectly due to my large center channel (SVS M-series). I remember you commenting on my thread, and I gave you the link of the tv stand.

If you can get an awesome deal on the 09 V10 then I would probably get it. The 2010 V series will be a lot more expensive....from what I've seen it will be the 09 V10's MSRP. At least $700 dollars more for the 58'', not including tax.
 
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STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
While I would still take a '09 V10 over most any display yet made, I would still wait for the new generation, just because. It would shock me if they didn't look more carefully, or designed more carefully, the rising voltage schedule, particularly for their high end.

And I know BMX has said it at least once, but he wouldn't recommend buy anything now unless it had 3D capability. I'll let you take that how you want to.

I've now checked out my friend's 65V10, and I can say that for a living room, it is a commitment, but very impressive. Pretty awesome. Maybe I can take a pic for you when I'm over there next.
I hear ya about the new models but the "floating blacks" thing would be a distraction. I'm not an early adopter so I don't know about 3D yet...I'm trying to talk myself into the 65" S1.
 
T

The Dukester

Audioholic Chief
Don't forget the rising black level in the Pannys occur in the '09 models as well as the '10s. If it were me, I would put an all out search for the Pio 6020 if you want to buy now. Magnolia stores in BB will be your best bet. Seems like I remember someone up your way on AVS saying there were some available, but I'm not sure. I went with a good friend a couple weeks ago up to Charlotte, NC to pick a new in box one after locating a couple up that way for him. The going rate for them is $2899. I think the sku number @ BB is 8867871. Don't talk to anyone but a Magnolia salesperson if you call. They are the ones that can look in the system. If you don't get a helpful person at one Mag, try another. YMMV as I got some that were extremely helpful and some that were bothered by the fact I called and they had to answer the phone.:rolleyes:
 
Patrukas777

Patrukas777

Senior Audioholic
Don't forget the rising black level in the Pannys occur in the '09 models as well as the '10s. If it were me, I would put an all out search for the Pio 6020 if you want to buy now. Magnolia stores in BB will be your best bet. Seems like I remember someone up your way on AVS saying there were some available, but I'm not sure. I went with a good friend a couple weeks ago up to Charlotte, NC to pick a new in box one after locating a couple up that way for him. The going rate for them is $2899. I think the sku number @ BB is 8867871. Don't talk to anyone but a Magnolia salesperson if you call. They are the ones that can look in the system. If you don't get a helpful person at one Mag, try another. YMMV as I got some that were extremely helpful and some that were bothered by the fact I called and they had to answer the phone.:rolleyes:
Remember, at most Best Buys' you are able to talk them down quite a bit. I don't remember the last time I paid asking price for a high-end product at BB. I normally give the salesman a price way under the asking price...the salesman goes to the Store Manager, and either excepts my offer or comes back with a counter offer. There's only a few brands that BB is unable to give discounts on due to price caps from the manufacturer (Ex. Apple).
 
G

Gov

Senior Audioholic
You should be able to get a 58V10 for under $2000 from BB now. Anything more is not the best price.
If you can find a Pioneer 6020 (good luck!), I would get that over the Panasonic V10 series. It is worth the extra money in my opinion.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I hear ya about the new models but the "floating blacks" thing would be a distraction. I'm not an early adopter so I don't know about 3D yet...I'm trying to talk myself into the 65" S1.
I was in the middle of typing this long winded post yesterday, but then had to run. Will you please link/name the most reliable sources you have, regarding the floating blacks issue?

If it's some joe schmoes mentioned this phenomenon, I would ignore it. There are a lot of possibilities that come to mind here, with only one that has to with the TV in my mind (video processing). Other factors are the sources, sd or hd, compression, and the fact that dark scenes are hard to capture on film (often grainy enough to the point of distraction; may need very high bit rate for those scenes, or high speed cameras, I dunno).

Film is grainy by nature. Some of the best PQ I have seen are loaded grain.

Also, this is probably the 100th I've mentioned it, but IMO, the most easily discernible difference between Pana models of a couple of years ago was precisely the VP. The higher end models had a smoother pic.

And not only that . . . I would go for the V10 for the bypassing of 3:2 pulldown all by itself. For me, that alone is a bigger factor than "floating blacks" + rising voltage, combined.

Combine that with my perhaps unfounded subjective belief that the VP differences are significant.

You also have much more calibration flexibility (I mean, outside of pro cal, and perhaps even then).

You get THX mode, which your pro calibrator would use anyways as the starting basis, with the V10.

edit: I'm sure the S1 is a better value; I'd also wait on S2 perhaps. However, the V10 is worth more, easily, IMO. It's a matter of how much. If it's me, NO QUESTION, I get V10 over S1/2.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know how "reliable" this is but...http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1236475

This would bother me much more than "rising black levels" that's why I am trying to decide on The 58" V10 and 65" S1 at the moment. (I'll be 14' from the TV)

I am starting to believe that ignorance is bliss.:)
Ah, thanks. I can see why you would want the older gen here. Was this a band-aid to stem all the FUD over something that 99.999% of the population would never notice?

I read several pages, and I will try to read more later. While I believe this is measurable with equipment, I honestly wonder how much of this is FUD, misdiagnoses, overblowing, and well you know.

If there is truly a big spike, then yeah, that would suck awfully. I mean, big, where there is absolutely no doubt about it.

I thunk* my black bars got brighter when APL goes up, and I was guessing that's the case with almost anyone here. I never thought about floating blacks with my PJ, as I always attributed that to the fact that my room itself becomes brighter, and that the reflections would brighten my black bars, and I say that with what is probably the closest thing to a cave that an AHer might have (I mean my floor is flat black, and all periphery outside of ceiling is dark burgundy curtaining; some people thought those were black too, until I turned on all the lights). Yes, it's probably complete subjective BS on my part, since I never measured it, but turn off your own lights, and look at your walls become whiter when the TV is brighter. Oh yes, that definitely affects what you see!

If it was truly* bad, across the board, I would imagine EVERYBODY would return their sets. Plasma is already considered by the masses as extremely prone to burn in, consuming a billion watts, with glare so bad you could harvest solar energy with it. And so, throw this in, throw rising blacks in, and it would be shooting themselves in the foot? Have they been THAT bad? Hm.


Besides the band-aid thought, I wonder how much of this might be caused by trying to mimic the idea of the locally dimmed led backlit lcd panel. Probably not, but maybe a wee tiny bit. Do we read about those owners saying, "omg, in chapter 16 of AVP, a minute in, you can see the dimming change quite easily when on gamma 2.2 for a second, in the upper right!". Come to think of it, since I mentioned that random gamma thing, many complainers seem that don't even mention their settings, let alone having it calibrated to begin with.


My own JVC projector can exhibit a neonish green, which might have a serious videophile puke. Well, nobody, and I mean nobody, has noticed it at my place, including people who work in the film industry. Everything else about the pic is overwhelmingly beautiful for that to be noticed. Oh yeah, there were at least a few hobbyists who said they could not handle the motion with my display, but I can say yet again the same thing. Winter games, basketball, it's still awesome (though much higher in APL with my OTA signal).

I bet you noticed that optical illusion thing mentioned on the last page of the link you provided me. You may have seen me post this before, as I first saw it thanks to BMX, but here it is (and I bring it up, because I do think it is a valid point to indeed bring up):

Which square is brighter, A or B?



Answer:
They are EXACTLY the same. Yes, trick question by my wording, you'll forgive me. :p

OK. I just searched threads started by you in this subforum, and I think I've read every post of yours in those threads.

It looks like this never came up in your own threads, though you may have noticed em, but just in case:

The "long version" for SM tweaks to your present S1:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=634626&postcount=9

and the "short version":
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=654298&postcount=17

I bet you came across these already, though, yes?
 
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