Missing a niche market?

Does anyone else wonder why you cannot buy a cheap preamp? You have Pioneer releasing their new X20 series with a nice amount of features except one, pre-outs. I find it hard to believe that they can release these receivers so cheaply and not make a cheap preamp for people who want to use external amplifiers. The 920 has a MSRP of 400 bucks, so why can't you release a preamp with the same features for equal or less?

In the A/V world every single taste is accommodated, why not this niche? Why not pair a single preamp with a variety of amplifier options? I mean if a company like Emotiva can release a top of the line preamp for 700 bucks, why not release a midrange option as well?

Shock said:

Does anyone else wonder why you cannot buy a cheap preamp? You have Pioneer releasing their new X20 series with a nice amount of features except one, pre-outs. I find it hard to believe that they can release these receivers so cheaply and not make a cheap preamp for people who want to use external amplifiers. The 920 has a MSRP of 400 bucks, so why can't you release a preamp with the same features for equal or less?

In the A/V world every single taste is accommodated, why not this niche? Why not pair a single preamp with a variety of amplifier options? I mean if a company like Emotiva can release a top of the line preamp for 700 bucks, why not release a midrange option as well?

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1) Economies of scale.

What % of processors out there being used are as dedicated pre/pro, as opposed to receiver? My guess is less than 1%. Just a guess, but think of all the friends and family you have . . .

2) Competition, combined with the concept of economies of scale. Some think that Denon's "midlevel" pre/pro is on the backburner because of the pre/pros that Onkyo churns out with very high value coupled to large feature sets. (How much money would they make by offering something roughly similar for twice the price, in such a small market segment??)

So, because pre/pros are for the serious folks, and knowing that they will sell only so many of them, they are usually given the highest level of feature sets available within the brand. (The relative market share for this product is already tiny, so why spend so much effort in creating a model that will very likely lose more money than it would make?)

I don't know if I would call the Emo a top of the line pre/pro. If you do, what would you call the Anthem D2v? Or how about the Denon AVP-A1HDCI?

Obviously, not every single taste is accommodated. I am with you, as far as wants. If midlevel pre/pros were the norm, there would be many, many happy AHers. The rest of the world wouldn't give a crap.

But I wanna be happy!

Shock said:

But I wanna be happy!

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Oh, I want you to be happy too, friend.

Hey Shock. I need some help moving this weekend, and I was wondering if you were available.

I've been barking up this tree for a while. I'd love to see a basic prepro in the $350-500 range. The basic connectivity of a mid level receiver is fine for me, just without the amp.

Shock said:

But I wanna be happy!

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Unless you need balanced outputs, there are many receivers that will fit the bill just as well as a dedicated processor.

A couple of years ago I looked at the Onkyo/Integra processor and felt it's price tag didn't give me more than the current, at the time, Yamaha 1800.

I looked at the then upcoming Emo processor and actually waited a bit, and waited a bit more.

Finally I decided on the 1800.

I'm happy.
Why can't you be happy too?

Nomo said:

Unless you need balanced outputs, there are many receivers that will fit the bill just as well as a dedicated processor.

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Sure, but you are paying for amps you won't use.

JerryLove said:

Sure, but you are paying for amps you won't use.

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As opposed to paying three times as much for something without amps at all. I just want to be happy, too.

Naw...you will end up using the amps in a different zone at some point. I mean, we are Audioholics and at some point you will be in the laundry room, garage, attic, closet or under a table and say man...I could sure use a couple of speakers here....

JerryLove said:

Sure, but you are paying for amps you won't use.

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ParadigmDawg said:

Naw...you will end up using the amps in a different zone at some point. I mean, we are Audioholics and at some point you will be in the laundry room, garage, attic, closet or under a table and say man...I could sure use a couple of speakers here....

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No, Dawg, see, when I want to listen to music in the attic, garage, closet, bathroom, or even outdoors, I just crank up the volume on my processor in the HT room.

Shock said:

Does anyone else wonder why you cannot buy a cheap preamp?

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I had a conversation with the wife just the other day about this, and it goes something like this:

Wife: "So honey, what do you want for Christmas this year?"

Me: "I want a pre-pro that is more expensive than my receiver. I would be really disappointed if you bought me a pre-pro that costs the same or less than my receiver."

Wife: "Are you out of your GOD-loving mind?"

Shock said:

Does anyone else wonder why you cannot buy a cheap preamp? You have Pioneer releasing their new X20 series with a nice amount of features except one, pre-outs. I find it hard to believe that they can release these receivers so cheaply and not make a cheap preamp for people who want to use external amplifiers. The 920 has a MSRP of 400 bucks, so why can't you release a preamp with the same features for equal or less?

In the A/V world every single taste is accommodated, why not this niche? Why not pair a single preamp with a variety of amplifier options? I mean if a company like Emotiva can release a top of the line preamp for 700 bucks, why not release a midrange option as well?

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The Emotiva USP-1 is $399, am I missing something here?

darko said:

The Emotiva USP-1 is $399, am I missing something here?

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Thats a stereo preamp, completely useless to an HT guy. I think He's talking about AV receivers.

I once bought a dedicated preamp, now I wish it had some amplification to it. No matter what you get, will you ever really be "happy"?

I knew I was missing something

The problem with buying a receiver and using it as a preamp is the fact I'm paying for something I'm never going to use, and all of those amps take up room. I want a slim stream lined preamp that I don't have to take out a mortgage to own.

jostenmeat said:

1)I don't know if I would call the Emo a top of the line pre/pro. If you do, what would you call the Anthem D2v? Or how about the Denon AVP-A1HDCI?

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As for those, two words come to mind, rip off. Companies that want to charge a small fortune to have the luxury of a decal on the front panel are showing exactly how greedy they can be. I mean 7500 bucks.....really? Is this thing going to churn out reliable lottery numbers on a constant basis to make up for it's ridiculous price tag? And if they make a product like this that no one in their right mind would buy, why not make one that actually has a option of selling?

Oh and that Denon model is something that would definitely grind my gears if I had to move it for a friend.

Shock said:

As for those, two words come to mind, rip off. Companies that want to charge a small fortune to have the luxury of a decal on the front panel are showing exactly how greedy they can be. I mean 7500 bucks.....really? Is this thing going to churn out reliable lottery numbers on a constant basis to make up for it's ridiculous price tag? And if they make a product like this that no one in their right mind would buy, why not make one that actually has a option of selling?

Oh and that Denon model is something that would definitely grind my gears if I had to move it for a friend.

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Rip off? Pfft. Just more than you can handle

Shock said:

The problem with buying a receiver and using it as a preamp is the fact I'm paying for something I'm never going to use, and all of those amps take up room. I want a slim stream lined preamp that I don't have to take out a mortgage to own.

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I'll repeat, it's the economies of scale.

As for those, two words come to mind, rip off. Companies that want to charge a small fortune to have the luxury of a decal on the front panel are showing exactly how greedy they can be. I mean 7500 bucks.....really? Is this thing going to churn out reliable lottery numbers on a constant basis to make up for it's ridiculous price tag? And if they make a product like this that no one in their right mind would buy, why not make one that actually has a option of selling?

Oh and that Denon model is something that would definitely grind my gears if I had to move it for a friend.

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There are actually quite a few owners of those here at Audioholics. Hey, they own really nice stuff. They already took care of nice speakers, and most whatever else. There was even a sticky in the amps forum just for the AVP, which Gene also uses IIRC. Found it, has about 300 posts.

Oh yeah, just to get Audyssey Pro capability, it pretty much has to be a dedicated pre/pro, perhaps outside of the Denon 5308, IIRC.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45050

Here is one build with the AVP, yep, another AHer:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33492

Maybe you've seen Warpdrv's posts?
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55551

Shock, are you familiar with ARC? How about Gennum? Even bandphan, who is probably the biggest proponent of using display vp rather than audio processors would tell you this unit is the tops.

Like I said, sure you might get less value, but if you have disposable income, and want the best . . .

There are explanations of how the chipsets are superior just in the D2v over the AVM50.

Whatever. You want to go tell them they got ripped off, be my guest.

jostenmeat said:

Whatever. You want to go tell them they got ripped off, be my guest.

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I don't have to tell them, they know they got ripped off.

Shock said:

I don't have to tell them, they know they got ripped off.

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serious? come on. For what the products offer, to by separate components you would be spending more. Now if you have no need for there features and benefits, thats understandable, but to say they are over priced is well, silly When you get older and get to a point where other people think you overspend for what is important to you, remember this

bandphan said:

serious? come on. For what the products offer, to by separate components you would be spending more. Now if you have no need for there features and benefits, thats understandable, but to say they are over priced is well, silly When you get older and get to a point where other people think you overspend for what is important to you, remember this

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The most important thing to me when buying anything really is value for the money. If I'm going to lay down my hard earned money I expect to get as much as I possibly can for that money. If you were to look at a pair of speakers that cost 7500 bucks I would say they were a rip off considering what you can get for considerably less money. You just don't get any value for your money. I know some people would consider that statement blasphemy, but more people would consider it very valid.

I take an item that has great value for the money and usually use it as a scale for every other item. If you're not competitive you don't belong in my house, period. The initial post of this thread was about how every single sector of the A/V market is catered too. I used the UMC-1 as an example of an item that has very high value for the money compared to other items with similar features. I don't believe in spending a lot of money on minor a upgrade. What is minor to me might be huge to someone else I understand that. However I look at A/V equipment as an average consumer would look at it. I don't think a 7500 preamp is a good deal, nor is it anywhere near what the large majority of A/V consumers would consider.

I mean give me the feature set of the pioneer 1020, cut the amps and give me preouts. I refuse to believe there is no market for something like that. Bandphan I think you should make it happen.....make it happen Bandphan!