Bookshelf and Receiver questions from a noob

Doesn't paradigm make small components?

I think I've seen mini-size paradigm components that look pretty nice, a 45 watt stereo amp, preamp, and hdmi switcher, all about 2"hx7"w; shanling cd player, also similar size.

I think these items are all currently on clearance sale from Audio Advisor. Sorry, too lazy to check for ya.

I dont see anything except speakers from paradigm.

DJ in TX said:

So no one has any input? Did I write something offensive or break some rule of forum etiquette? Or maybe my post was too lengthy and people got bored before they could read it all?

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Are you open to any other choices ? Such as Paradigm Atoms or Cambridge Audio S-30s

What is your budget?

Your post was okay, I just now saw it.


Later,

Forest Man

njedpx3 said:

Are you open to any other choices ? Such as Paradigm Atoms or Cambridge Audio S-30s

What is your budget?

Your post was okay, I just now saw it.


Later,

Forest Man

Click to expand...

I am somewhat open to other ideas. Although I definitely gravitate toward brands that I trust, which currently is Klipsch and Polk.

I actually did look at the paradigm site a few minutes ago, but I didn't see any prices. This usually means it is very high, but I could be wrong.

Which brings me to your question about budget. I don't have a hard line budget in my head, however, I am currently under the delusion that I can find some really great deals somewhere, maybe discontinued items or used. I would say if I could find a good set of bookshelves or small floor standing speakers for $150-$225, and then a good receiver for $150-$175, then that might be worth taking the plunge. I might even fudge upward a bit if I was really sold on a particular set of speakers that had really glowing reviews.

Any thoughts Forest Man?

If in doubt get a low end Yamaha -much much better

DJ in TX said:

To answer your question, I have no clue how much of the 6.4 lbs is the amp. And if I did know this, I wouldn't know how weight would contribute to it's value or usability.

I know that a full size receiver would be better in terms of power and features, but I like a smaller footprint. I suppose I am to the point where I have to decide what is more important to me. So if I forget trying to find a small receiver, are their any good full size receivers that have a CD player or DVD player built in? This might help some of my space limitations.

Thoughts?

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For $199.95 this is a much, much better receiver
Yamaha RX-V363 and it weighs 17 lbs. 10 oz. and a good part of the weight is the amp

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V363BL-5-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0013ZGOYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254274764&sr=8-1

So, while waiting to hear back from Forest Man, I wanted to pose another question to whoever is still out there. I see that the two speakers I listed from Klipsch, the RB-51 and RB-10, have the same exact measurements, and the same size woofer and tweeter. The differences are in frequency response, sensitivity, and power handling, not to mention price. Here is a link to the comparison page:

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/comparison/?ids=2208;1330;

So I am curious how much of a difference should I expect from these two speakers as far as output and performance? If the more expensive speaker were rated a baseline 100%, then what percentage would you expect the less expensive speaker to be rated based on the specs?

The reason I ask this is if the less expensive speaker were rated at 95% on this scale, then the extra expense probably wouldn't be worth an extra 5% output. Although, if the less expensive speaker were rated only 60%, then the extra 40% performance would definitely be worth the price. I know this probably sounds like a ridiculous question, and likely you are going to want to just tell me to just go listen to them and decide for myself what sounds better. I agree with that on some levels, but being they are both from klipsch and from the same product family, they likely will have alot of similarities. I just want to know how much of a difference there could be in two same sized speakers.

Okay here are some ideas

DJ in TX said:

I am somewhat open to other ideas. Although I definitely gravitate toward brands that I trust, which currently is Klipsch and Polk.

I actually did look at the paradigm site a few minutes ago, but I didn't see any prices. This usually means it is very high, but I could be wrong.

Which brings me to your question about budget. I don't have a hard line budget in my head, however, I am currently under the delusion that I can find some really great deals somewhere, maybe discontinued items or used. I would say if I could find a good set of bookshelves or small floor standing speakers for $150-$225, and then a good receiver for $150-$175, then that might be worth taking the plunge. I might even fudge upward a bit if I was really sold on a particular set of speakers that had really glowing reviews.

Any thoughts Forest Man?

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Polks are okay. Klipsch are good. IMHO

Cambridge Audio S-30s are excellent bookshelf speakers for as low as $199 /pair.
http://www.digitalcraze.com/Details.asp?Source=Froogle&ProductID=3969
I have a pair of the cambridge Audio S-30s that i had set up at my office. Very high quality, small , but excellent sound


the Paradigm Atom V.5 speakers are also excellent $249 /pair Here is a review
http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/907para/


Also, if ( actually when) you upgrade to bigger front towers, either the Cambridge Audio or the Paradigm speakers will make very good surorund speakers.


As far as a receiver spend at least $199 and get the entry Yamaha. Even though entry, the Yamaha RX-V363 is a very good AVR.

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V363...4274764&sr=8-1


Just my thoughts. You are the final judge, but if there is one close, go to a high end Home Theater store and audition some of their speakers -- you might be pleasantly surprised

Good Luck!

Forest Man

Forest, thanks so much for your post!

For me, a big part of this process is determining whether or not I can afford a system that will actually perform the way I would want it to. It doesn't have to shake my house or allow me to throw raves in my living room. Mainly I am just looking for something that will provide me with excellent sound for the dollar. Of course I am a very thorough person (to put it nicely), and I take a very long time to make a decision like this. But sometimes with the multitude of brands, sizes, proprietary technologies, features, and individual opinion to sort through using my limited knowledge and experience, it leaves me feeling a bit overwhelmed and my process starts feeling like a chore.

I have to say though that reading reviews like the one you linked to for the Atoms is the exact kind of info I look for. It's exciting to read a review like that from someone who has tons of experience with audio equipment. Stereophile has been my main outlet to find objective reviews, so I am surprised that I missed this one. In any case, these Atoms could be exactly what I am looking for. Obviously I will give them a listen first, and make sure they are in my budget, but I certainly have a good feeling after reading this review. I can't wait to hear them in person.

Any thoughts on where to get these for a really good price online?

DJ in TX said:

I actually did look at the paradigm site a few minutes ago, but I didn't see any prices. This usually means it is very high, but I could be wrong.

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In this case it means that they have a very dealer-centric model, and don't list prices to as to give dealers flexibility.

Paradigm's prices are, generally speaking, reasonable for the gear. There's likly more bang-for-buck out there, and there's certainly less.

Which brings me to your question about budget. I don't have a hard line budget in my head, however, I am currently under the delusion that I can find some really great deals somewhere, maybe discontinued items or used. I would say if I could find a good set of bookshelves or small floor standing speakers for $150-$225, and then a good receiver for $150-$175, then that might be worth taking the plunge. I might even fudge upward a bit if I was really sold on a particular set of speakers that had really glowing reviews.

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EMP is getting quite a lot of press around here right now for their (while the price lasts) $200 bookshelves.

That price on a receiver, I'd be looking used.

DJ in TX said:

I dont see anything except speakers from paradigm.

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Sorry, meant to say parasound. Decent and honest 45w/ch stereo amp and preamp in small chassis. These would work with any speakers you choose. And I did the work for you:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZAMPV3

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZPRE2

Also, I can't help myself here since you mention Klipsch as one of your speaker choices and simple two channel system. Have you considered a tube amp? Would you like imaging prowess so convincing a center channel is superfluous? Do you like vocals to sound like real people? Here is a physically small but sonically huge tube amp that would make either of the klipsch's on your list sing, no preamp required:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84C.htm

Of course this would only work with high efficiency speakers. Klipsch and tubes is like coffee and bailey's irish cream, complimentary and yummy.

Both of these options cost about the same.

ski2xblack said:

Sorry, meant to say parasound. Decent and honest 45w/ch stereo amp and preamp in small chassis. These would work with any speakers you choose. And I did the work for you:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZAMPV3

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZPRE2

Also, I can't help myself here since you mention Klipsch as one of your speaker choices and simple two channel system. Have you considered a tube amp? Would you like imaging prowess so convincing a center channel is superfluous? Do you like vocals to sound like real people? Here is a physically small but sonically huge tube amp that would make either of the klipsch's on your list sing, no preamp required:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84C.htm

Of course this would only work with high efficiency speakers. Klipsch and tubes is like coffee and bailey's irish cream, complimentary and yummy.

Both of these options cost about the same.

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Thanks for doing the work for me. Very helpful. Too bad these items blow my budget, as I would love to hear these components on a daily basis. I think I have just decided to make a wishlist including links and recommendations from this thread. Maybe someday I can put together a pro system with some of these components. For now I really only want to spend $300-400 total for two speakers and whatever I need t opower them. We'll see if I can make it work. I'm loving what I am hearing about these paradigm's though.

Thanks again for all the help!

PS~ I almost forogt to mention, I have heard references to Tube amps, but never seen any I guess, because the one you link to looks crazy, like right out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab

DJ in TX said:

PS~ I almost forogt to mention, I have heard references to Tube amps, but never seen any I guess, because the one you link to looks crazy, like right out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab

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Look weird, sound fabulous. They don't mate with very many speakers due to low output, but since you mention Klipsch (which I have used this particular amp with, with outstanding results) I felt it worthy a mention. It probably would NOT drive Atoms sufficiently, fyi.

Good luck shopping. Let us know where you end up.

DJ in TX said:

I'm loving what I am hearing about these paradigm's though.

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Be sure to audition with your own ears/brain too. Favorable reviews are one thing, but hearing is subjective and what sounds good to a reviewer may not sound as good to you. That being said, Paradigm makes excellent speakers. It almost makes me wish I hadn't sold my pair.

Speaking of which, have you checked the used market? Check Audiogon, the classifieds here at audioholics, local craigslist, etc. Bargains exist, just have to dig 'em up. Hopefully you've gotten some good ideas what to look for. Friends don't let friends pay retail.

price on previous links incorrect...

That Parasound 1/2 space amp is $262, preamp is $299, both on clearance from AA. If your source component by any chance has variable outputs, you only need the amp.

njedpx3 said:

For $199.95 this is a much, much better receiver
Yamaha RX-V363 and it weighs 17 lbs. 10 oz. and a good part of the weight is the amp

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V363BL-5-1-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0013ZGOYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254274764&sr=8-1

Click to expand...

Okay so I just accidentally stumbled onto some info about this Yamaha receiver. Apparently it doesn't provide audio over HDMI. This seems strange and problematic for my setup needs. I was glad to see the $199 price for my budget, but if it cannot do audio over HDMI, then maybe this isn't for me.

Currently both my Cable box and my XBox connect to my TV via HDMI, and seems like the best solution would be to connect them both to the HDMI inputs on this receiver and then connect the receiver to the TV. But that doesn't appear to be an option unless I am misunderstanding something. If I read correctly, I believe the lowest cost Yamaha receiver that does do audio over HDMI (RX-V463) is $349. This is almost double the price. Of course I don;t see this anywhere on the yamaha site, only reading it in online forum posts complaining, so some of this may be incorrect.

What am I missing here?

Cont'd...

So I have been trying to wrap my brain around this issue. An AV receiver that supposedly deosn't provide audio over HDMI makes no sense to me, unless I am misinterpreting it. If it is true, then what exactly does it mean? My speakers would be connected over speaker wiring, so no lack of audio there. This receiver has two HDMI inputs, and one HDMI out. Would all three of these ports be affected by this "no audio over HDMI" issue? And what would this even mean in layman's terms? Also, since the Yamaha site doesn't specify this (to my knowledge), then how am I supposed to know before I buy?

Can someone help me connect the dots here?

Audio over HMDI

DJ in TX said:

Okay so I just accidentally stumbled onto some info about this Yamaha receiver. Apparently it doesn't provide audio over HDMI. This seems strange and problematic for my setup needs. I was glad to see the $199 price for my budget, but if it cannot do audio over HDMI, then maybe this isn't for me.

Currently both my Cable box and my XBox connect to my TV via HDMI, and seems like the best solution would be to connect them both to the HDMI inputs on this receiver and then connect the receiver to the TV. But that doesn't appear to be an option unless I am misunderstanding something. If I read correctly, I believe the lowest cost Yamaha receiver that does do audio over HDMI (RX-V463) is $349. This is almost double the price. Of course I don;t see this anywhere on the yamaha site, only reading it in online forum posts complaining, so some of this may be incorrect.

What am I missing here?

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Audio over HDMI. The HDMI specs were developing HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and not all vendors met the specs and provided audio in addtion to Video ( DVI) over HDMI interface. If you search and find HDMI 1.3 compatible, then you will receive audio as well as video. I am not sure what reference is telling you the V363 is not HMDI 1.3 compatible and does not pass both audio and video.

You are confusing HDMI pass-through and HDMI upconverting. Do you need you video up-converted? In most cases this is not necessary and is a superflous option. If you are coming from cable/satellite or DVD/BD you really don't need to upconvert and in many case upconverting does not achieve the desired result. Think about it if the input is 480p and you want theoutput to be 1080i then you still don't have any higher resolution, just crisper 480p shown as 1080i.

Just my opinion, but for the price the V363 is an outstanding , great AVR!


Oh and you asked about buying Paradigm Atoms online, most cases you need to buy in a HT store , but you should be able to still get them fro $249 per pair.


Good Luck on your audio quest.


Forest Man

njedpx3 said:

Audio over HDMI. The HDMI specs were developing HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and not all vendors met the specs and provided audio in addtion to Video ( DVI) over HDMI interface. If you serahc and find HDMI 1.3 compatible, then you will receive audio as well as video. I am not sure what reference is telling you the V363 is not HMDI 1.3 compatible and does not pass both audio and video.

You are confusing HDMI pass-through and HDMI upconverting. Do you need you video up-converted? In most cases this is not necessary and is a superflous option. If you are coming from cable/satellite or DVD/BD you really don't need to upconvert and in many case upconverting does not achieve the desired result. Think about it if the input is 480p and you want theoutput to be 1080i then you still don't have any higher resolution, just crisper 480p shown as 1080i.

Just my opinion, but for the price the V363 is an outstanding , great AVR!


Oh and you asked about buying Paradigm Atoms online, mostcases you need to buy in a HT store , but you should be able to still get them fro $249 per pair.


Good Luck on your audio quest.


Forest Man

Click to expand...

I don't need to upconvert at all. Both my cable box and XBox output at HD resolutions over HDMI. The way I was interpreting this no audio issue was that you would connect the receiver to the HDTV and speakers, and while you see HD video on the TV, you wouldn't hear any sound over the speakers...so the receiver would in effect be stripping out audio that comes over HDMI.

From what it sounds like you are saying, this wouldn't be the result at all, so this is good news for me. As long as I can output HD video and audio from these two sources to the receiver over HDMI only, and then transfer this HD data to the TV and Speakers, then I am happy.

I read a user review that said this receiver did not do audio over HDMI and wanted to warn people. Yamaha site doesn't say anything, but googling the model number and no audio over HDMI came up with a few hits. Who knows, maybe the model numebr isn;t even correct and maybe this particluar receiver does do audio over HDMI, I just don't know how to check.

Thanks for all your help forest!

njedpx3 said:

Audio over HDMI. The HDMI specs were developing HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and not all vendors met the specs and provided audio in addtion to Video ( DVI) over HDMI interface. If you search and find HDMI 1.3 compatible, then you will receive audio as well as video. I am not sure what reference is telling you the V363 is not HMDI 1.3 compatible and does not pass both audio and video.

Click to expand...

The words that you are looking for in the spec sheet are HDMI switching vs. HDMI repeating. So not buy the switching version. That's all it does in switch sources. It does not decode the audio and play it through your speakers. You want HDMI repeating.

It seems that all the models of the name brands are repeaters now, even the lowest models. That wasn't always the case. It's not so much a matter of which version of HDMI you got nor a manufacturer not meeting a spec, but rather if they chose to include the repeating architecture in a particular model. That spec was generally listed but rather confusing to the casual or uninitiated consumer.

Agreed.

Your receiver doesn't really know what to do with HDMI, it can't process it. All it does is switch between multiple inputs to a single output. That's why no audio from the receiver (though I would think that the audio would be passed by the receiver to the TV, have you seen if the TV's speakers play).

So you'll need to run audio separately from your sources to your receiver.