getting into vinyl

Hello, and yes I'm new here clearly.

I just got into highend audio not too long ago, and I'm looking to expand the use of my equipment. My previous setup was paradigm atoms v.6 front, paradigm cc-190 center, paradigm monitors rear, yahama rx-463 rcvr, and a velodyne impact 10 series sub.

My new setup is paradigm studio 60's v.5 fronts, paradigm studio cc-590 v.5 center, paradigm studio 20's v.5 rear's, nad t-765 rcvr, and the same sub from my last setup.

Now obviously I would like to take full advantage of this system. Vinyl is really new to me, and I've been doing some research on it to learn more about it. It seems to be the perfect choice for audio playback. Now I would like to start archiving by use of a DAC in the future. I know little about them, but would like to know the experience from other people on how it stacks up to vinyl after its been converted.

Feel free to bombard me with knowledge.

Kaz-maN said:

Hello, and yes I'm new here clearly.

I just got into highend audio not too long ago, and I'm looking to expand the use of my equipment. My previous setup was paradigm atoms v.6 front, paradigm cc-190 center, paradigm monitors rear, yahama rx-463 rcvr, and a velodyne impact 10 series sub.

My new setup is paradigm studio 60's v.5 fronts, paradigm studio cc-590 v.5 center, paradigm studio 20's v.5 rear's, nad t-765 rcvr, and the same sub from my last setup.

Now obviously I would like to take full advantage of this system. Vinyl is really new to me, and I've been doing some research on it to learn more about it. It seems to be the perfect choice for audio playback. Now I would like to start archiving by use of a DAC in the future. I know little about them, but would like to know the experience from other people on how it stacks up to vinyl after its been converted.

Feel free to bombard me with knowledge.

Click to expand...

If you have a good DAC and a computer tweaked for audio use, then as long as you archive with a loss less format it will be identical.

However once you archive it, you loose the pleasure of playing LPs. LPs are a ritual. Getting the record out, removing from jacket and sleeve, and placing the record on the turntable without touching the playing surfaces.

Then giving it a sweep with the cleaner and in my case placing the Dust Bug.
Then lowering the stylus to the groove via a well engineered and damped mechanism.

Then there is the admiration of the jacket art work. Then the ritual is repeated when the disc is turned over, and finally reversed when the disc is returned to its jacket and returned to its correct place in the library.

If you are going to archive it to the drive you might as well buy the CD.

The fact is that CD is the higher fidelity medium with a greater dynamic range then LP. It so happens that in that ghastly world of pop music severe dynamic range compression is more often than not used. With an LP the clowns can not do that, or they would have very little playing time. So the myth has grown up that LP is the higher fidelity medium with the greater dynamic range which it is not.

Having said that the LP is capable of very good fidelity with well cared for discs, a good turntable and cartridge, but superior to CD and SACD it is not.

That makes sense, but I have another question. I thought that once you have a cd format, you can't convert it to a lossless compression such as a .flac file because the loss on a cd is not recoverable. So to archive wouldn't it be best to convert starting with analog to a .flac file?

I'm really not trying to be a pain, I'm just curious and want to learn. I do understand that vinyl is a ritual, I really don't mind that at all. The problem I have is the money that its going to cost for a decent turntable. Someone told me you need to spend atleast $10k for a decent turntable setup for it to make sense. Something tells me that I highly doubt that.

A device that I was looking at for converting media is called that Alesis masterlink ML-9600. One of the guys that works at the audio dealer local to me owns this device, and records his vinyl onto it. He says it works great. Its capable of a 24bit / 96khz conversion. I'm not sure if you're familar with it, but would it be a good device?

Oh and sorry I wasn't paying attention, but my rear speakers are studio 10's v.5 not studio 20's. Thank you for the reply TLS Guy.

Kaz-maN said:

That makes sense, but I have another question. I thought that once you have a cd format, you can't convert it to a lossless compression such as a .flac file because the loss on a cd is not recoverable. So to archive wouldn't it be best to convert starting with analog to a .flac file?

I'm really not trying to be a pain, I'm just curious and want to learn. I do understand that vinyl is a ritual, I really don't mind that at all. The problem I have is the money that its going to cost for a decent turntable. Someone told me you need to spend atleast $10k for a decent turntable setup for it to make sense. Something tells me that I highly doubt that.

A device that I was looking at for converting media is called that Alesis masterlink ML-9600. One of the guys that works at the audio dealer local to me owns this device, and records his vinyl onto it. He says it works great. Its capable of a 24bit / 96khz conversion. I'm not sure if you're familar with it, but would it be a good device?

Oh and sorry I wasn't paying attention, but my rear speakers are studio 10's v.5 not studio 20's. Thank you for the reply TLS Guy.

Click to expand...

No you should not go to analog and back to digital. The whole point of a loss
less format like FLAC is that it is just that, and you have all the bits back after conversion. It is a loss less code encode system and it is great.

This is the CD standard: - It's 44100 Hz or 44.1 KHz. You don't need to archive above that, it is a waste of space. That gives you more dynamic range than an LP is capable of and response to 20 kHz. Only a passing bat can hear higher then that!

I would not use a device like Lesis Masterlink. I would use a good computer and a DAC. I use the RME Fireface 800, which is a little pricey, but I'm fussy. There are cheaper units that will get you started. Remember bits are bits, and your final result will be dependent of having satisfactory code-encode not the storage device.

No, you don't need to go out and spend 10 kHz on a turntable. Your speakers and receiver do not justify it. Having said that, a turntable is a mechanical electrical device, largely mechanical. That means to say that as you move up the food chain so to speak, precision engineering and constructiondoo pay dividends.

For LPs I think there is a lot to be said for a vintage turntable and arm with a modern cartridge. I have a soft spot for the Thorens TD 125 with SME series 2 or 3 pickup arms.

If you want new, then a turntable like this, and this cartridge.

That will do you very nicely indeed. If your receiver does not have a high gain RIAA input, you will need a phono preamp.

I sniff that you are involved with a gullible salesman with an active imagination and minimal scientific or engineering background. These days this is the rule!

Check out the links in my signature, but here are some pictures, of what I use for archiving and my vintage turntables.





Thorens TD 125 Mk II and SME series three with Decca London.

It seems like from what you're saying is to just stick with cd format. I mainly just go by what I hear. When I actually bought my equipment at the store, they had two different sample cd's. One cd was just purely an album 16bit 44.1khz, the other was the same artist but from a vinyl recored directly to cd format. The sound difference was huge. This guy is 40yrs experience in electronic repair with a background in audio engineering.

I actually have a very highend computer that i'm in the process of building for gaming, but I'm not too sure software wise how to tune it for audio purposes. I am willing to give it a shot though. I'm trying to keep my options open.

I looked at the rme 800, and its interesting, but I don't understand its purpose. Is it a device that you would output a highend cd player too, and then from there output to a receiver? Either way it looks like you could connect multiple devices. I'm just trying to get the best sound for the buck. I don't have a budget like you have, but its definantly a decent one.

Overall though, what would you say is recommended for me interms of audio playback? CD's, vinyl, etc...

I really apreciate you patients with me. I don't mean to be bothersome, but you seem to have plenty of knowledge that I'm trying to pick. Home audio is definantly a new hobby of mine, and I am very fascinated with it. I am still a newbie, but I will learn. Patience is a virtue. All is apreciated

As for cartridge suggestions, I will recommend the Denon DL-110. You can spend more, but you really won't get a much better cartridge no matter how much you spend. I have measured this device thoroughly. It has a very flat response, with a slight drop in treble (a good thing for many recordings), extreme low distortion and superb inner tracking (where many cartridges begin to distort substantially in the inner groove even with the smallest tracking error) ability. Each unit is hand made and quality controlled in Japan by Denon to the highest level of quality.

For turntables, the most cost effective table is the Technics SL-1200MKII. It is superior to any other table anywhere near it's price range. It has a superior drive system, speed stability and a vastly superior mechanical build quality. There are some offerings from others that have a better arm - but the arm on the SL-1200MKII is still a good quality unit overall and you can always change out the arm later on if need be and have a much better turntable system than if you purchased another table for the same price.

The 'high-end' tables in this price range usually use a piece of painted MDF as the body and a rather poorly speed stable motor to drive it - with very poor isolation from the motor. Many of these tables even use a MDF platter - but acrylic is more common now(a good material). The SL-1200MKII is a cast and machined aluminum body, with very heavy rubber dampening layers, in both the body and platter(cast and machined aluminum). The unit uses a quartz locked speed control loop to ensure dead accurate speed/pitch. Build quality overall is excellent. The only weak point on this table is the factory arm as I specified earlier. The arm uses bearings superior than those in most of the high end arms at this price point - but the arm tube and headshell connection joint is more resonant on this unit - which will cause more coloration. But replacing the arm is not difficult. Companies sell adapter plates to easily fit any arm you want to the unit.

-Chris

Kaz-maN said:

It seems like from what you're saying is to just stick with cd format. I mainly just go by what I hear. When I actually bought my equipment at the store, they had two different sample cd's. One cd was just purely an album 16bit 44.1khz, the other was the same artist but from a vinyl recored directly to cd format. The sound difference was huge. This guy is 40yrs experience in electronic repair with a background in audio engineering.

I actually have a very highend computer that i'm in the process of building for gaming, but I'm not too sure software wise how to tune it for audio purposes. I am willing to give it a shot though. I'm trying to keep my options open.

I looked at the rme 800, and its interesting, but I don't understand its purpose. Is it a device that you would output a highend cd player too, and then from there output to a receiver? Either way it looks like you could connect multiple devices. I'm just trying to get the best sound for the buck. I don't have a budget like you have, but its definantly a decent one.

Overall though, what would you say is recommended for me interms of audio playback? CD's, vinyl, etc...

I really apreciate you patients with me. I don't mean to be bothersome, but you seem to have plenty of knowledge that I'm trying to pick. Home audio is definantly a new hobby of mine, and I am very fascinated with it. I am still a newbie, but I will learn. Patience is a virtue. All is apreciated

Click to expand...

Lets get one thing out of the way. No matter how much audiophiles argue CDs are capable of better fidelity than CD, rigorous evidence is against them. Now a turntable is likely to sound different to a CD. However every cartridge will sound a bit different to every other, some a lot different. This is also the situation with loudspeakers. It is no coincidence that they are both electromechanical devices. On the other hand competently designed CD players sound pretty much the same. Now not all the cartridges can be right can they?

What I can tell you is that I have made a number of recordings over the years, and at one time had both LPs and CDs produced form the same dbx 1 encoded master tapes. I can tell you that the CD was identical to the master tape, there was small but significant difference in the LP sound.

Now I understand that LPs and CDs may not have the same mix and post production work, so this complicates the issue also. Also old recordings on the whole were made with much more care and attention to detail, than is often he case now. There is a lot of sloppiness all around. Free lancers are now all we have. I don't think there are any career engineers left at any major labels. There are large numbers of owner engineer labels in the classical arena with many of them doing a fine job. On the whole though they are not recording the large major works, like the companies of old. Chandos are a big exception here and to some extent Hyperion.

So what are the reasons to have a turntable.

1). You already have a large LP collection.

2). You want to collect vintage LPs with music that is not, and never likely to be transferred to CD

3). You like playing LPs

4) You run a commercial archiving service.

5). Your choice in music contains a lot of items where the mix and post production work is really screwed up in CD and the LP is generally better.

There may be some more, but I think that pretty much covers it.

Now to archiving, there really is not a lot of point in transferring your collection to hard disc. In my experience, properly cared for LPs are very durable. If you want to archive and then sell the LP, that is illegal and a copyright infringement, unless you wipe it off your hard drive when you sell the CD.

As far as the RME unit goes, it will phantom power and mix four mikes. I use it to record radio broadcasts of interesting concerts. I archive my master tapes. I use it to decode audio streams from the internet. I do have a CD player in which the RME unit serves as the DAC. Basically everything that goes to, and comes off my audio workstation goes via the RME Fireface 800. So it gets a lot of use.

Finally there are a bunch of people who will try to convince you that PCM digital audio is fundamentally flawed. These people are mistaken and or deluding themselves. There are credible scientifically conducted listening studies they show otherwise. I know the Internet and print media are full of cognoscenti blowing hot air, but that is all they are doing.

The real issue is not putting poorly engineered junk on the CDs on the first place.

I own both formats, have purchased a new turntable two years ago as I never though out my vinyl and for me, the vinyl experioence has been very positive and enjoyable. I have recordings in both formats and sometimes the vinyl sounds better than teh CD and visa versa. It really does depend on the recording engineer.

The problem with todays CD (not a fault of the medium itself) and that TLS has mentioned is that loudness war has severly limited the dynmaic range of a CD to the extent where vinyl offers better dynamic range; (the range between playing quietly to loud or visa versa) .

I love the sound of vinyl. Its warm and inviting and I don't care if its the less accurate medium. Playing vinyl has got me invovled with music again which the CD format could never do with it's tiny jewel case, its micro small printing and album cover and the slap it in the tray and press play and forget. Vinyl takes work and patience but the experience is very rewarding.

Awesome feedback guys. I think I might have made a decision.

A good turntable and decent preamp should do me just fine. The whole archiving and converting just gets too expensive for what it is. I think I should just keep it simple, and maybe in the future expand. I really do like the sound of vinyl. I've heard a couple recently and it has a very warm sound to it, but I really enjoy it.

Thanks,
Kody

Kaz-maN said:

Awesome feedback guys. I think I might have made a decision.

A good turntable and decent preamp should do me just fine. The whole archiving and converting just gets too expensive for what it is. I think I should just keep it simple, and maybe in the future expand. I really do like the sound of vinyl. I've heard a couple recently and it has a very warm sound to it, but I really enjoy it.

Thanks,
Kody

Click to expand...

So which turntable are you considering?

-Chris

I don't know yet, but now that I just want to focus on just a turntable. I think its safe to say I can spend a little more money on a better turntable. I was looking at the rega P2 and P3. The one that TLS guy recommended look pretty good as well. I have to do some more research i guess.

Sorry if some of my grammer is a little bad. I had a little to drink.

Kaz-maN said:

......Sorry if some of my grammer is a little bad. I had a little to drink.

Click to expand...

Hey. We don't reccomend operating a turntable if you've been drinking!

Kaz-maN said:

I don't know yet, but now that I just want to focus on just a turntable. I think its safe to say I can spend a little more money on a better turntable. I was looking at the rega P2 and P3. The one that TLS guy recommended look pretty good as well. I have to do some more research i guess.

Sorry if some of my grammer is a little bad. I had a little to drink.

Click to expand...

Those are good starting points. From Project, look at the Xpression III and Xperience in the equivalent price range as teh Regas you are looking at. I own the Project Xpression II and am very very happy with it.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=xpression&cat=turntables&lang=en


http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=xperience&cat=turntables&lang=en

davidtwotrees said:

Hey. We don't reccomend operating a turntable if you've been drinking!

Click to expand...

I hardly ever drink, but of course I wouldn't operate one if I was a little loaded.

I will definitely look into the listed recommendations though. I really do appreciate all your help guys.

What is your maximum budget for a turn table? I can recommend the ones with objectively highest build quality and performance if I have a price to work with. For $500-$700, the SL-1200MKII is of course the best, objectively. However, it's not pretty (it's a utilitarian design) of course. And even up to $1000 it's the best choice, as for $1000 you can replace the tone arm with a nice Jelco arm and have an extremely high grade deck, functionally.

If you will go well over the $1k mark, hopefully nearing the $2k mark, you can get some extremely high performance decks if you pick wisely.

I was originally looking for a deck in the $400-$600 range. I ended up with a deck that costs near $2k though, because I decided I did not want to have to upgrade later on. So I just went ahead and purchased a deck that will satisfy me for many years on the first go. The one I picked was the Marantz TT-15S1(it's really a Clearaudio deck - Marantz just has them re-badged). There is no other deck at it's price that has the same level of overall build quality and performance, at least, not that I could find. It also includes a high end/costly cartridge (n almost $1k, highly positive reviewed cartridge is included). The construction materials are about as good as one could hope, and the tone arm is an extremely high quality unit, using bearings of extraordinary quality(tungsten points on sapphire bearings; the lowest static friction combination physically possible) and a superb super low resonance construction - and every part of this arm is painstakingly machined. The arm is found on other more expensive decks that cost up to $6000. The arm costs over $1k by itself. The platter is a silicone damped acrylic platter using very high grade inverted bearing, with hardened stainless point to ceramic bearing design, in an oil bath casing. Motor is totally isolated from the deck (does not touch it) and has very high speed accuracy(I have measured/analyzed the actual performance). The precision/detail of this turntable system upon close inspection is so high, it's like a piece of fine jewelry. Clearaudio does not cheap out on any material or aspect of design/construction. Even the main acrylic base is above and beyond what they could have used if they wanted to save money. Instead of basic low cost acrylic, they used very costly GS grade aircraft optical grade acrylic to machine the main base from, according to the manufacturer.

-Chris

WmAx said:

What is your maximum budget for a turn table? I can recommend the ones with objectively highest build quality and performance if I have a price to work with. For $500-$700, the SL-1200MKII is of course the best, objectively. However, it's not pretty (it's a utilitarian design) of course. And even up to $1000 it's the best choice, as for $1000 you can replace the tone arm with a nice Jelco arm and have an extremely high grade deck, functionally.

If you will go well over the $1k mark, hopefully nearing the $2k mark, you can get some extremely high performance decks if you pick wisely.

I was originally looking for a deck in the $400-$600 range. I ended up with a deck that costs near $2k though, because I decided I did not want to have to upgrade later on. So I just went ahead and purchased a deck that will satisfy me for many years on the first go. The one I picked was the Marantz TT-15S1(it's really a Clearaudio deck - Marantz just has them re-badged). There is no other deck at it's price that has the same level of overall build quality and performance, at least, not that I could find. It also includes a high end/costly cartridge (n almost $1k, highly positive reviewed cartridge is included). The construction materials are about as good as one could hope, and the tone arm is an extremely high quality unit, using bearings of extraordinary quality(tungsten points on sapphire bearings; the lowest static friction combination physically possible) and a superb super low resonance construction - and every part of this arm is painstakingly machined. The arm is found on other more expensive decks that cost up to $6000. The arm costs over $1k by itself. The platter is a silicone damped acrylic platter using very high grade inverted bearing, with hardened stainless point to ceramic bearing design, in an oil bath casing. Motor is totally isolated from the deck (does not touch it) and has very high speed accuracy(I have measured/analyzed the actual performance). The precision/detail of this turntable system upon close inspection is so high, it's like a piece of fine jewelry. Clearaudio does not cheap out on any material or aspect of design/construction. Even the main acrylic base is above and beyond what they could have used if they wanted to save money. Instead of basic low cost acrylic, they used very costly GS grade aircraft optical grade acrylic to machine the main base from, according to the manufacturer.

-Chris

Click to expand...

I was thinking a $1500 budget for a turntable would be pretty good. Now that can change +/- a couple hundred depending on what feels like the right choice. Wheres a good place to purchase this sort of turntable?

Kaz-maN said:

I was thinking a $1500 budget for a turntable would be pretty good. Now that can change +/- a couple hundred depending on what feels like the right choice. Wheres a good place to purchase this sort of turntable?

Click to expand...

With this budget, you could buy the same model I purchased, which sells for about $1700 USD. There is no better built unit for the price mark - and it includes a very highly rated cartridge that costs almost $1k by itself. However, I don't use the original cartridge. I preferred to use another one (Denon DL-110) due to it's very neutral behavior.

It is best to purchase from a place with well known very high level of customer service so that if anything is wrong/needs fixing, you will get it done promptly and without hassle.

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73850

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xbVqQNIxFdB/p_642TT15S1/Marantz-Reference-Series-br-TT-15S1.html

There is a Clearaudio model Emotion CMB that costs $300 more, but has a lower mass design, and a magnetic mains bearing.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/84327

It is the closest competitor in quality for a similar price(but the Marantz has a better platter and chassis design).

Next up is the VPI Scout II.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/84178

It's tonearm is not as well designed IMO as the one on the Marantz/Clearaudio and it has a MDF/steel plate chassis as opposed to the acrylic chassis on the Marantz. Also, the VPI Scout does not include a cartridge, where as the Marantz includes a high end nearly $1k cartridge. The VPI uses a unipivot arm, which tends to rock for a while after setting it down. The Marantz uses a gimbal arm, but it's an extremely well designed/built one using the finest bearings/design possible. Overall, the performance between the VPI and the Marantz will be very close. It could come down to which one's cosmetics that you prefer - though you will have to still buy a cartridge for the VPI. Music Direct also has some B stock VPI Scout tables if you don't mind buying B stock. You will save several hundred dollars. You can also find factory refurbished Marantz table - if you don't mind refurbished - and you will save several hundred dollars.

-Chris

WmAx said:

With this budget, you could buy the same model I purchased, which sells for about $1700 USD. There is no better built unit for the price mark - and it includes a very highly rated cartridge that costs almost $1k by itself. However, I don't use the original cartridge. I preferred to use another one (Denon DL-110) due to it's very neutral behavior.

It is best to purchase from a place with well known very high level of customer service so that if anything is wrong/needs fixing, you will get it done promptly and without hassle.

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73850

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xbVqQNIxFdB/p_642TT15S1/Marantz-Reference-Series-br-TT-15S1.html

There is a Clearaudio model Emotion CMB that costs $300 more, but has a lower mass design, and a magnetic mains bearing.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/84327

It is the closest competitor in quality for a similar price(but the Marantz has a better platter and chassis design).

Next up is the VPI Scout II.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/84178

It's tonearm is not as well designed IMO as the one on the Marantz/Clearaudio and it has a MDF/steel plate chassis as opposed to the acrylic chassis on the Marantz. Also, the VPI Scout does not include a cartridge, where as the Marantz includes a high end nearly $1k cartridge. The VPI uses a unipivot arm, which tends to rock for a while after setting it down. The Marantz uses a gimbal arm, but it's an extremely well designed/built one using the finest bearings/design possible. Overall, the performance between the VPI and the Marantz will be very close. It could come down to which one's cosmetics that you prefer - though you will have to still buy a cartridge for the VPI. Music Direct also has some B stock VPI Scout tables if you don't mind buying B stock. You will save several hundred dollars. You can also find factory refurbished Marantz table - if you don't mind refurbished - and you will save several hundred dollars.

-Chris

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Those are some fantastic looking turntables. That Marantz looks like it would be the best choice for me, but I found it for $1199-1249 on different sites. Theres nothing like a reliable site, but just like crutchfield they're too expensive. Thanks for the recommendations!

Kaz-maN said:

Those are some fantastic looking turntables. That Marantz looks like it would be the best choice for me, but I found it for $1199-1249 on different sites. Theres nothing like a reliable site, but just like crutchfield they're too expensive. Thanks for the recommendations!

Click to expand...

Yes, the $1200 price would be factory refurbished. If you don't mind refurbished, and the site has a good customer report response, then go for it. The refurbished one will include the same cartridge as well. So it's a super deal if you can get it that way. Make sure the site is Marantz authorized so that you have a Marantz warranty.

BTW, since you show interest in the Marantz, here is a close up photo set of the arm I photographed, of the arm on the Marantz:


It has a dynamic tension magnetic anti-skate control (imparts no mechanical resonance linkages), has a very thick hardened aluminum tube, tungsten point to sapphire bearings, full adjustments for vertical tracking and cartridge rotational position. The head shell part is also superior to most, designed in a way as to have far higher rigidity and less resonance compared to most. It is an extremely high quality arm, and costs well over $1k by itself.

Here is a picture of the turn table as used in my system:


I did get an aftermarket record clamp weight that matched the overall look of the table. The included clamp is a small piece of clear plastic that attaches by pressure. But I prefer a clamp that operates by mass and has the fancy look of a large hunk of polished metal. The weight does not effect the speed accuracy of the table. I measured/verified that issue before approving using of the mass clamp.


-Chris

Awesome pics! I might buy one possible this month if not the next. I'm still building my gaming computer, and I still have to purchase an audio rack. So i'm still busy with other things, but atleast I have a turntable picked out. Thanks again!