4 Ohm Speakers/Reciever Combo

Zumbo - Thanks for the suggestions.
TLS Guy - Appreciate the help with the reconing for the driver. I will continue to investigate.

I did get a contact for an MB Quart Factory in Germany also that may yield some help.

Seth=L said:

Ok... So NAD is more expensive than the model I recommended. The model I recommended has more power, features, and processing control. I really don't see what the debate here is. Do I have to backtrack and show you all the hard evidence again in regards to how NAD stands against the competition, or do you just simply ignore any post I make that has a crap ton of benchtests (on different tiers, not just the TX-SR805) that show you obviously inferior performance per dollar? I only make suggestions based on a certain product's performance.

You recommend NAD and PSB 90% of the time without any real basis other than you just like them. That's great that you enjoy their products, but I don't feel that it's right to shove that down everyone's throat like it's the best thing for every scenario. One has to debate this with you to make it perfectly clear that 90% of the time it's not even close to being the right choice.

But I'm sure nothing with change and you will continue to make recommendations based on your personal bias (not even experience).

Also, being inconsistent can't help you much either. You are either very confused or a troll. If you are a troll, congratulations you've successfully annoyed me.

Your response to my post regarding the TX-SR805 and which ever NAD happens to be closest to it.



You say NAD will have more power, but which one? Their top end model?

Then in the topmost quote in this post you go on to say that the TX-SR805 will defeat it in terms of power. Well which is it buddy?

And the TX-SR805 more than handily meets it's specified rating with ACD (which isn't nearly as important as 1/2 channels driven performance. As shown in this link below, it far exceeds most receivers under $2000 and probably a few that are more than $2000.

http://hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/208bwonk/index5.html

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A.) I don't shove any products down anyones' throat Mr Onkyo
If you followed my speaker recommendations, I always qualify with a " It may not be the sound for everyone. I always recommend listening to other speakers as well. It would appear that your closed minded attitude only picks out what you want to see to start a flame war.

B.) You've but NAD down without even listening to them. I've heard them many a time driving Totems which are difficult to drive. I've also heard a few Onkyos as well with Totems.

C.) I didn't specify a particular NAD model in my post and I didn't see your price qualififying statement . I did see your automatically put down response again to NAD. Whats your beef with NAD?


D.) If you reread my post again Seth, I didn't saying any particular NAD model beating the Onkyo. I said generally it would not have to bow to the NAD in terms of power..meaning that NAD in general has quite healthy power reserves. If you choose to interpret that without asking for clarification, thats your fault buddy. P?ss off and quit annoying me Mr Onkyo.

Jeff R. said:

For those still concerned about which reciever to purchase, if you have not looked back through previous posts. I already purchased an Onkyo 805.

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I am aware, I also don't want you to have reason to doubt your purchase by squashing the fanboy.

3db said:

A.) I don't shove any products down anyones' throat Mr Onkyo
If you followed my speaker recommendations, I always qualify with a " It may not be the sound for everyone. I always recommend listening to other speakers as well. It would appear that your closed minded attitude only picks out what you want to see to start a flame war.

B.) You've but NAD down without even listening to them. I've heard them many a time driving Totems which are difficult to drive. I've also heard a few Onkyos as well with Totems.

C.) I didn't specify a particular NAD model in my post and I didn't see your price qualififying statement . I did see your automatically put down response again to NAD. Whats your beef with NAD?


D.) If you reread my post again Seth, I didn't saying any particular NAD model beating the Onkyo. I said generally it would not have to bow to the NAD in terms of power..meaning that NAD in general has quite healthy power reserves. If you choose to interpret that without asking for clarification, thats your fault buddy. P?ss off and quit annoying me Mr Onkyo.

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I am not an Onkyo fanboy, I don't even own an Onkyo product. It just happens that the TX-SR805 fits the bill. I personally would get the Yamaha RX-V663 or Marantz SR 4003 and use it as a preamp. Never a fanboy for anything.

I've heard NAD receivers powering good speakers, it sounded good. It sounded every bit as good as the similarly priced Denon and Yamaha receivers powering the same speakers.

Seth=L said:

I am not an Onkyo fanboy, I don't even own an Onkyo product. It just happens that the TX-SR805 fits the bill. I personally would get the Yamaha RX-V663 or Marantz SR 4003 and use it as a preamp. Never a fanboy for anything.

I've heard NAD receivers powering good speakers, it sounded good. It sounded every bit as good as the similarly priced Denon and Yamaha receivers powering the same speakers.

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Seth
hes right about the head room on the NAD power . There's has always been +3 headroom on there amps .
Jeff might need a 2 channel amp for his front MB's . Don't know until he gets them up and running .

Seth=L said:

I am aware, I also don't want you to have reason to doubt your purchase by squashing the fanboy.

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uhuh

Seth=L said:

I am aware, I also don't want you to have reason to doubt your purchase by squashing the fanboy.

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Resorting to name calling and character assignation, and other personal attacks in public really tells alot about a person. I won't go down your road Seth. You're showing a total lack of control and blind sightedness and you really are not a very nice person at all.

The other receivers that you have mentioned other than the Onkyo hide behind impedance selection switches to drive 4 ohm speakers. NAD does NOT. NAD's weakness if you want to call it that is its very slow to pick-up on the new formats that seem to be springing out on a yearly basis. Its design emphasys is on robust amplifiers. If any of the receivers you mentioned burned out because one did not use the impedance selection switch, it would void the waranty.

As an FYI, I bought a Yamaha RX-V1800 over a NAD because I can't afford NADs. For that matter, if I hadn't purchased so much from this audio retailer, I would not have gotten such a good deal on the Yamaha. But just because I can't afford something doesn't mean I don't appreciate its capabilities.

To Jeff R.

Don't worry about your Onkyo. Its THX certified and will drive the 4 ohm loads without harm. This arguement I'm having is with Seth but I will not draw you into it. Enjoy your purchase.

3db said:

Resorting to name calling and character assignation, and other personal attacks in public really tells alot about a person. I won't go down your road Seth. You're showing a total lack of control and blind sightedness and you really are not a very nice person at all.

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I'm not a nice person at all? That sounds like labeling to me. You called me an Onkyo fanboy earlier, which is far from true (also, apparently that's my level of negative conduct as well). I've had good and bad products from Onkyo. Sorry if it seems like I beat you up every time you recommend NAD when the features, price point, or some other factor (such as real power) are not available with NAD, but I don't like to see recommendations based off of no solid numbers.

The other receivers that you have mentioned other than the Onkyo hide behind impedance selection switches to drive 4 ohm speakers. NAD does NOT. NAD's weakness if you want to call it that is its very slow to pick-up on the new formats that seem to be springing out on a yearly basis. Its design emphasys is on robust amplifiers. If any of the receivers you mentioned burned out because one did not use the impedance selection switch, it would void the waranty.

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4 ohm impedence selector switches are failsafes for people that will accidentally overdrive the receiver/amplifier while they are handling a 4 ohm load. It's simply a current limiting device. I will also agree that a few of those receivers can't appropriately handle 4 ohm loads and that it's bogus that they will not support their product if the failsafe is not used.

wire said:

Seth
hes right about the head room on the NAD power . There's has always been +3 headroom on there amps .
Jeff might need a 2 channel amp for his front MB's . Don't know until he gets them up and running .

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Based on the measurements provided by the benchtests I have shown at least twice in this very thread will verify that the Onkyo has more than enough headroom and power to handle the MB quarts.

Also, hypothetically a $1000 NAD receiver's specifications state it's rated 75 watts per channel and another competitor's $1000 receiver states 125 watts per channel and on the bench the both produce the same amount of power only the competitor's receiver has more features. Why on this green earth would I choose the NAD, because the underated their receiver so it seems more "honest"? Not a chance in hell, I'm going with the receiver that has the most features with the same power and price. Only difference here is if you put the nearest priced NAD (street prices) to the Onkyo TX-SR805 the Onkyo is going to have a huge upset on that NAD.

You'd have to be a lunitic to buy an underpowered H/K or NAD receiver just because it's actual power exceeded it's specifications when the competition is often offering more measured power for the same price and more features. NAD and H/K are snake oil companies as far as I am concerned, and the measurements of these receivers speak volumes.

Jeff, I am sorry I got so involved in your thread about a topic that didn't directly relate to your need. It's your thread now. I've said my pieces. If I have anymore to say to Wire and 3db I will do it in a PM.

Seth

If you want some test results on a few NAD receivers, I can give you the links.

As far as snake oil companies, I think thats a point of interpretation. Some people are minimilists and don't need all the bells and whistles. Thats the crowd that NAD caters too. I'm part of that crowd. Features to me don't add real value to a product unless they are used on daily basis. Features that are neat and cool but very seldom used hold no value to me. I bought an RX-V1800 becuase I got a good deal on it. I hardly call the RX-V1800 spartan but I wanted some video conversion, switching and the ability to due the latest codecs. But people including PEng (who I respect) suggest I go for the Denon and spend teh extra cash for true deep colour gui on-screen menues, have individual bass mangement per channel and a few other feattures the Yammy did not have. But to me, these features that did not add value to my use. Sure the Yammy has cryptic menu displays as well as cryptic YPAO output results but once I read the manual a few times, I understood what they were getting at and its good enough for me to use.

Once I explained what I was truly after, he understood my requirements and blessed the purchase ( Thanks Peng ) .

To me, its more important that a company live to its advertised claim of power and not hide behind limit switches, 2 channels driven, etc. Thats more important to me than colorful GUIs, be able to network with a PC etc.

Seth=L said:

Based on the measurements provided by the benchtests I have shown at least twice in this very thread will verify that the Onkyo has more than enough headroom and power to handle the MB quarts.

Also, hypothetically a $1000 NAD receiver's specifications state it's rated 75 watts per channel and another competitor's $1000 receiver states 125 watts per channel and on the bench the both produce the same amount of power only the competitor's receiver has more features. Why on this green earth would I choose the NAD, because the underated their receiver so it seems more "honest"? Not a chance in hell, I'm going with the receiver that has the most features with the same power and price. Only difference here is if you put the nearest priced NAD (street prices) to the Onkyo TX-SR805 the Onkyo is going to have a huge upset on that NAD.

You'd have to be a lunitic to buy an underpowered H/K or NAD receiver just because it's actual power exceeded it's specifications when the competition is often offering more measured power for the same price and more features. NAD and H/K are snake oil companies as far as I am concerned, and the measurements of these receivers speak volumes.

Jeff, I am sorry I got so involved in your thread about a topic that didn't directly relate to your need. It's your thread now. I've said my pieces. If I have anymore to say to Wire and 3db I will do it in a PM.

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Well Seth
All im saying , Yes the headroom in a NAD is consistant . Again , Maybe Jeff might need a 2 channel power amp to power his fronts , I say to play safe for $200 to $300 for a good used Amp , mightbe the way to go .
I don't have a clue why your ranting about nothing , maybe its that time of the season .

Seth=L said:

Based on the measurements provided by the benchtests I have shown at least twice in this very thread will verify that the Onkyo has more than enough headroom and power to handle the MB quarts.

Also, hypothetically a $1000 NAD receiver's specifications state it's rated 75 watts per channel and another competitor's $1000 receiver states 125 watts per channel and on the bench the both produce the same amount of power only the competitor's receiver has more features. Why on this green earth would I choose the NAD, because the underated their receiver so it seems more "honest"? Not a chance in hell, I'm going with the receiver that has the most features with the same power and price. Only difference here is if you put the nearest priced NAD (street prices) to the Onkyo TX-SR805 the Onkyo is going to have a huge upset on that NAD.

You'd have to be a lunitic to buy an underpowered H/K or NAD receiver just because it's actual power exceeded it's specifications when the competition is often offering more measured power for the same price and more features. NAD and H/K are snake oil companies as far as I am concerned, and the measurements of these receivers speak volumes.

Jeff, I am sorry I got so involved in your thread about a topic that didn't directly relate to your need. It's your thread now. I've said my pieces. If I have anymore to say to Wire and 3db I will do it in a PM.

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This issue still does not seem to be understood.

I have reviewed the specs of the NAD and Onkyo range, and almost certainly the NAD receivers are the more powerful even when rated at a lower rating into eight ohms. than the Onkyos. Almost all of the NAD receivers seem to be able to about double or more their power into a two ohm load at least for short periods.

Onkyo just specify their power into two ohms. However the new THX specs just specify that an amp does not blow up into a four ohm load.

Now the cheaper receivers can not maintain voltage as the impedance drops. So the output into four ohms will be 65 watts and 32.5 watts into two ohms.

I have stated many times that loudspeakers manufacturers impedance ratings are meaningless and largely fiction. Almost all speakers available now drop impedance to four ohms for most of the region below 400 Hz, with drops to two ohms far from unusual. Therefore at least two thirds of the amp power is directed to this frequency range driving most speakers. There are frequent dips in the crossover region also. To make matters worse there are always adverse phase angles between current and voltage, making the apparent impedance seen by the amplifier worse than measured.

In my view bench tests of an amplifier driving resistive loads, have little practical value.

The bottom line is that in the practical world 130 watt Onkyo receiver, and others of like ilk, are actually only between 32.5 watt to 62.5 watt receivers driving most practical loudspeaker loads.

A loudspeaker stress index has been proposed as a way of sorting this out. I plan on trying some measurements after Christmas. What has been measured by the developers of this scale has not been pretty.

I think we need more money spent on basics rather than "features". I have noted well engineered systems get on very well without "features."

Judging by some of the posts concerning ability to use so called "features", I suspect a lot of the time they are in fact quality spoilers, in a lot of peoples hands.

TLS Guy said:

This issue still does not seem to be understood.

A loudspeaker stress index has been proposed as a way of sorting this out. I plan on trying some measurements after Christmas. What has been measured by the developers of this scale has not been pretty.

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IMHO you should take your measurements first before making all sorts of statement (i.e. I stated this I stated that.............) like you are some sort of AV authority.

TLS or Zumbo

This may be very a stupid question, but.....I have been searching for replacement parts still hunting. I have stumbled across several sites that are featuring MB Quart Car Audio. I see they have a "Q" Line of car audio speakers out there( Same line as my home towers), and they do make a set of 4" components. The pictures look very close as far as construction goes. Any chance one of these drivers could be the same or very similar to what I have in my Home Tower?

For those interested in seeing some bench test results, below are links to two British AV magazine reviews with lab report.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/7106
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/6453

Please note that the NAD high end power amp (M25) is 2.5 times more expensive than the Onkyo TX-SR805. Its power output into 4 ohms beat the 805 by less than 1 dB. I know it is not fair to compare a separate power amp to a low price receiver but it does show Seth made a valid point, in terms of $/W at least, in a compelling way.

Those tests were done at 1Khz signal only which is industry standard. I would like to see these test resuts run either full spectrum or at lower frequencies, sort what these guys did;

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/1104nad/index4.html

That Onkyo has a beast of an amp though from what I've read so far.

Jeff R. said:

TLS or Zumbo

This may be very a stupid question, but.....I have been searching for replacement parts still hunting. I have stumbled across several sites that are featuring MB Quart Car Audio. I see they have a "Q" Line of car audio speakers out there( Same line as my home towers), and they do make a set of 4" components. The pictures look very close as far as construction goes. Any chance one of these drivers could be the same or very similar to what I have in my Home Tower?

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The Q line is not the same. I think they are similar to the reference line, but probably not the same. You will have to pull out the driver and get the model #. If it matches, you are good to go.

I thought you had a bad 6.5". The x-over setting in the receiver would have nothing to do with messing-up your 4".

zumbo said:

The Q line is not the same. I think they are similar to the reference line, but probably not the same. You will have to pull out the driver and get the model #. If it matches, you are good to go.

I thought you had a bad 6.5". The x-over setting in the receiver would have nothing to do with messing-up your 4".

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I searched that site previously for you, I did not think the drivers were the same as yours. If you can establish one is the same model number as yours, you will be good to go. Unfortunately you are going to need exactly the same drivers or those speakers will not be fixable. That is a hard pill to swallow I know. If you can't get parts or a new driver from MB Quart, then you only option is to keep searching the web until someone parts one of those speakers out. If they do, buy more than one driver.

One temporary fix has occurred to me. I think those three drivers are in one space. I suspect the drivers are all the same. My hunch is that the bass mids, in d'Appolito configuration, are driven only from a low pass filter and not a band pass filter, and are crossed to the high pass filter at 2.5KHz. The lower woofer is I suspect a fill driver cut in from a first order low pass filter at 200 Hz.

That would be the most logical way of designing that speaker.

So if you swap the bass/mid that is annoying you for the fill driver, the problem with that driver may be hidden or at least substantially masked, at least for a while. That will give you a chance to find a parted out speaker. As far as I can tell that speaker is a two and half way and not a three way. That is better anyway, with a driver compliment like that.

If that does not work, I might be able to reconfigure those speakers using a different driver set, but eight drivers and the crossover parts won't come cheap either.

Another idea.

I have another idea.

If switching the woofers around does not work, you could ship me one of the drivers. I could measure the TS parameters, and then we could find a woofer with close T/S parameters. Since it will be used as the fill driver, the HF roll off of the driver will not matter. There are a huge number of 6.5 inch bass mids around, so the chances a very good we would find a close enough match.

I could then design and build you a first order low pass filter for that diver. It would take 3 components. You would then feed this driver from that network and disconnect the low pass network for that driver on your board. We might even be lucky enough to find a driver that also is close enough Le and you can drop it in.

PENG said:

For those interested in seeing some bench test results, below are links to two British AV magazine reviews with lab report.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/7106
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/node/6453

Please note that the NAD high end power amp (M25) is 2.5 times more expensive than the Onkyo TX-SR805. Its power output into 4 ohms beat the 805 by less than 1 dB. I know it is not fair to compare a separate power amp to a low price receiver but it does show Seth made a valid point, in terms of $/W at least, in a compelling way.

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In that page I can't see their benchtest reports, they must only briefly mention it, or I am not looking hard enough.