Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

Manic Miner said:

Phew! take one day of, and the thread explodes!

Craig: I can see that you think that every test done by Ilkka has been won by SVS. I guess that if you are obsessing on SPL at 20hz, then the answer is yes. But if I were you I would take a closer look at the data for the BK Monolith, not just the 20hz portion, but also GD, and decay, then take a look at the pricetag and report back if you think that SVS were the clear winners of that shootout

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Manic, Let us see if you can follow along here. I will ask a few simple questions, and you try to answer them ...

1. When was the last time you saw a post by someone touting Group Delay from a test as being "killer", "room shaking" etc .. ?

2. When was the last time you saw anyone saying "Hey, my subwoofer kicks ths sh*t out of yours in group delay" ?

3. When was the last time you saw someone say "The SVS PB-XX was shown by Ilkka/Ed Mullen/AVTalk to have 5 dB more output than the (insert name here) subwoofer " ?

This ought to be good... A hint - number 3 has occured 100's of times.

Try to find 1 or 2.

Ilkka said:

I remember most locked/deleted threads related to the measurements Axiom took for Ultra and EP-600/EP-500?

My shootout thread was deleted after you guys attacked on it and blaimed its results were flawed and manipulated.

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Revisionism at its best.

craigsub said:

3. When was the last time you saw someone say "The SVS PB-XX was shown by Ilkka/Ed Mullen/AVTalk to have 5 dB more output than the (insert name here) subwoofer " ?

This ought to be good... A hint - number 3 has occured 100's of times.

Try to find 1 or 2.

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I really don't understand your logic here. You made it sound like it was our fault if people like to compare max output numbers instead of GD numbers. Are you suggesting we shouldn't even measure max output?

If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

Ilkka said:

I really don't understand your logic here. You made it sound like it was our fault if people like to compare max output numbers instead of GD numbers. Are you suggesting we shouldn't even measure max output?

If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

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This nonsense from 2005 and Illka's low ethical standard doesn't work for me. I'm leaving to enjoy my quad subs.

Ilkka said:

I really don't understand your logic here. You made it sound like it was our fault if people like to compare max output numbers instead of GD numbers. Are you suggesting we shouldn't even measure max output?

If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

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Some of the conclusions you draw are SO amusing.

Manic brought up GD ... not me. I asked Manic a question, not you.

Could someone explain the humor behind my post to Ilkka ? I have a dinner meeting to attend, and won't be around for a few hours ...

Craig,

I would only like to find out why you replied to Manic like you did? I find it very strange if you can't back up your opinion.

You wanted us to add blind listening into our tests. I explained it pretty clearly why it isn't possible. Is there something else you are not happy about regarding the measurements we/I take? I am honestly interested.

craigsub said:

Manic, Let us see if you can follow along here. I will ask a few simple questions, and you try to answer them ...

1. When was the last time you saw a post by someone touting Group Delay from a test as being "killer", "room shaking" etc .. ?

2. When was the last time you saw anyone saying "Hey, my subwoofer kicks ths sh*t out of yours in group delay" ?

3. When was the last time you saw someone say "The SVS PB-XX was shown by Ilkka/Ed Mullen/AVTalk to have 5 dB more output than the (insert name here) subwoofer " ?

This ought to be good... A hint - number 3 has occured 100's of times.

Try to find 1 or 2.

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Craig, flip a few pages back and you will find me pondering about if why I prefer my Plus in 12hz tune for music is its GD, and Decay behaviour in that tune. But neither GD or Decay will make a "sub room shaking", that is pure SPL in the lowest frequencies.

For movies this is whats most important, for music SPL at 20hz is an almost moot point. I guess the reason why most people focus on SPL is because they use their subs for movies most of the time, or that in one way or another movies performance is whats most important for them.

That most people have this priority is not mine, Ilkkas or your fault, but I accept it.

RMK! said:

Ilkka,

Why don't you start your own thread(s)? There, you and like minded individuals can post your graphs and enjoy the visual side of Audio to the fullest. You won't get the exposure you would by posting in more popular threads but at least it will be peaceful and you will no longer have to worry about being unjustly persecuted. Just trying to help

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RMK: Thank you for the brief statement which closely reflects my sentiments.

Ilkka said:

I meant I can separate a 1% THD from a 10% in a listening test, when using single or multiple sine waves, especially in lower frequency range.

And yes, I have taken the Klippel test multiple times (actually all of them, not just the 6" Pop) and I score constantly -24 dB or -27 dB. After that it becomes a guessing game.

It is much easier to hear the THD with sine waves than with program material.

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That's cool Illka, that makes more sense now. And since I don't ever listen to sine waves, to me personally it means the same as looking at it on a graph. Good for reference, but it's the program material I'm concerned about.

Yes, it is true that higher THD (right kind of THD) can sometimes sound better. Every tube amp owner admits this. And there is nothing wrong with that. Same thing with subwoofers.

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Yeah, and that type of "right kind of THD" can be different from product to product and how of course different people perceive what sounds "better" to them will be different from person to person. It's all relative, and that's why I like measurements for reference, but feel listening tests are most important in the end. Of course that's just my opinion and we all have one. But that's cool too, it would be a pretty boring world if we all had the same opinion.

Btw, congrats on your relatively high score on the THD tests, they are a good bit higher than the "norm" for most people that take it. In a way I think my average -12dB score is a blessing, sometimes ignorance is "bliss".

Cheers,
Steve

Steve42 said:

Btw, congrats on your relatively high score on the THD tests, they are a good bit higher than the "norm" for most people that take it. In a way I think my average -12dB score is a blessing, sometimes ignorance is "bliss".

Cheers,
Steve

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I guess its similar to having perfect pitch. All my friends who have it, hate it.

Check out:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=245488&postcount=33

where Tom Vodhanel from SVS says:

Ilkka has never been related to SVS in any financial way ( or ANY way) and he is not part of any marketing plan. We have never paid him, given him free product or even a free t-shirt for that matter. If he posted a profile like that anywhere it was as a joke.

Tom V.
SVS

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and later after it was discussed how the AVTalk moderator's had modified Ilkka's profile and locked it:

Well, the "owner' Of said forum is a "dealer" for a direct competitor to SVS. So if Illkka made any measurements that showed SVS to perform well...that would probably explain things. When Illkka posted measurements showing our products in a less than perfect light...many of these same individuals all pointed to the data as "strong evidence" that SVS isn't perfect. Then, he posts something that shows us measuring well...and he is mocked as a "SVS marketer". Seems a bit unfair. But whatever gives everyone a good laugh I guess..

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Then, he posts something that shows us measuring well...and he is mocked as a "SVS marketer".

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The only problem with this is it's a gross oversimplification of the issue. He isn't "mocked" simply because he shows SVS measuring well. He's criticized for his unethical behavior such as allowing his personal rancor to influence his measurement methodology; measuring and publishing measurements of SVS competitors after labeling the product "defective"; breaking his word about sharing the measurements with the manufacturer before publishing; blatantly ignoring ethical standards which would dictate working with the manufacturer to ensure satisfaction of the testing methodology; unnecessary and unreasonable trashing of SVS competitors; and twisting of other's statements to suit his SVS bias. THAT'S what marks him as an "SVS Marketer," paid or unpaid.

Many users of those subs simply refuse to acknowledge that there is anything other than lowTHD in the Ultra. The smearing caused by IMD and dynamic distortion in the Ultra is clearly audible when compared to better sounding subs. It manifests itself as a loss of detail or articulation compared to say a EP500 as reported by the GTG participants and based on my own experience with these two subs in my HT. While I have not had the opportunity to listen to the VTF-3H0, Craig's impressions with music and comparing it to the Ultra suggests that the new HSU sub likely has less dynamic and IMD distortion as well, in keeping with HSU's stated balanced design criteria

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It's rather interesting that you still keep saying this, when I have already measured that it's actually EP-600/500, which has more IMD.

Note that I'm not trying to object your subjective opinions. If you feel that Ultra has less detail and worse articulation than Axiom's subs, it's perfectly ok. I'm just trying to say that it is not because they have less IMD or dynamic distortion, what ever you mean by that. Something else is causing that difference.

Ajax said:

The only problem with this is it's a gross oversimplification of the issue. He isn't "mocked" simply because he shows SVS measuring well.

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Would it be too much asked if we could leave the "case Axiom" behind us? I mean what could I possibly do to make you feel any better about it? What's done is done.

Also it is quite interesting that you are labelling me as an SVS marketer, because Axiom was "put up" against SVS. If the other sub would have been for example an HSU or Velodyne, would I be now labelled as an HSU marketer?

I must also tell that the EP-600/PB10 juxtaposition wasn't deliberate. They weren't competing against each other. Actually I was trying to get even more subs to be measured that day, but unfortunately due late notice none of my friends could bring their subs there that day. So there were only two subs, but they were NOT competing against each other. The comparison table I have showed in my both tests has been only for academical purposes only. It doesn't show which sub won the test. No single measurement can do that.

Ilkka said:

It's rather interesting that you still keep saying this, when I have already measured that it's actually EP-600/500, which has more IMD.

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While that may be true, the Ultra seems to have the same magnitude of HD and IMD. I brought that up earlier.

HD is a product of the fundamentals, and has been shown to be more pleasing to the ear. IMD on the other hand is all over the map, and in the case of the Ultra, seems to have it in the same amount as HD.

Now, if HD masks IMD, I think it would suffice to say that the IMD with the Ultra would be more noticeable.

silversurfer said:

While that may be true, the Ultra seems to have the same magnitude of HD and IMD. I brought that up earlier.

HD is a product of the fundamentals, and has been shown to be more pleasing to the ear. IMD on the other hand is all over the map, and in the case of the Ultra, seems to have it in the same amount as HD.

Now, if HD masks IMD, I think it would suffice to say that the IMD with the Ultra would be more noticeable.

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Some problems I see.

1. More HD would have to sound better than low HD.

2. HD would have to mask IMD.

I'm not sure if either one is true, but you make an interesting point. Also we have to remember that both THD and IMD are staying at very low levels (under 1-2%) at normal listening levels (especially with music). I'm not sure if they are audible to anyone at those levels.

Ilkka said:

Some problems I see.

1. More HD would have to sound better than low HD.

2. HD would have to mask IMD.

I'm not sure if either one is true, but you make an interesting point. Also we have to remember that both THD and IMD are staying at very low levels (under 1-2%) at normal listening levels (especially with music). I'm not sure if they are audible to anyone at those levels.

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Well, then I think you bring up a very good reason for blind listening tests.

Ilkka said:

It's rather interesting that you still keep saying this, when I have already measured that it's actually EP-600/500, which has more IMD.

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Your methodology is so intrinsically flawed that the results are meaningless. If you were someone worthwhile I would explain why and suggest a better approach to measurement starting with looking at the components that consititute IMD but you simply aren't worth the time. Your better off sticking to that misleading THD @ 10% statistic that you and certain reviewers like to report. You and the SVS fanboys can delude yourselves with the pseudo-science.

silversurfer said:

Well, then I think you bring up a very good reason for blind listening tests.

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Yes, if you read my rather lengthy post I made some time ago, I specifically highlighted the importance of listening. I believe we can get a rather good feel about sub's performance and SQ by just looking at enough accurate and versatile measurements, but the final decision should be always based on listening in your own room.

bobgpsr said:

Check out:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=245488&postcount=33

where Tom Vodhanel from SVS says:


and later after it was discussed how the AVTalk moderator's had modified Ilkka's profile and locked it:

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If you or anyone else believe this drivel look me up for some cheap Florida swampland. I'll throw in an Ultra for free. TV has been known to quote and support Illka and his biased reviewer friends on many occasions. The fine AVtalk people were treated harshly by TV over an accurate review they did of the Ultra and Illka showed his true colours.