Hijack posts from Hsu/SVS thread...

craigsub said:

So no, I don't change the SPL, because to do so would give the Turbo equipped sub a higher output above the tuning point, where the vast majority of bass resides. This would in turn make the Turbo sound relatively more powerful than the non turbo, or the SVS.

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Umm, how would that skew the results, because turbo will lower the output/sensitivity in upper range. If you DON'T bump up the level, you will skew the results. Same thing with SVS's, you need to bump up the level around 1.5 dB when you plug the port. Otherwise the deeper tune will have less output in upper range.

It's always very important to EQ all subs alike, if you want to do a proper comparo. Which reminds of that we haven't still seen any 1/24 oct. 10-100 Hz quick sweeps for all "three" subs?

craigsub said:

Ok guys ... First, I checked the calibration on the PB12-Ultra in 16 Hz tuning, and made sure it was level matched to the VTF-3 HO.

When you run pink noise through the VTF-3 HO, let's use an 85 dB level. Whether or not you use the Turbo, the total SPL level remains the same. the 20 Hz signal is about 3 dB lower, but the 15 Hz signal is several dB higher.

You still get the same overall SPL.

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Yes, but level matching with pink noise isn't accurate enough. One sub can have a boost at lower frequencies and other at higher, yes they still pull out same average SPL with wideband PN, but do they sound the same? Definitely not. No wonder those "peak graphs" have been so different regarding mid bass level.

You need to look at the frequency responses, not just the average output. You have the SMS-1, so it shouldn't be too difficult to EQ them perfectly similar? That's the only way to do a proper comparo.

jakeman said:

Using the SMS to equalize will undermine a key part of these listening tests since the sub with the inferior linearity will benefit at the expense of the more linear sub, a hallmark of your testing style as noted many times. Craig's approach is fine for his current purpose which is to compare each sub at the same location level matched with different music and movie selections. Level matching with pink noise is the accepted technique virtually all of us use so his method actually provides a more realistic comparison for most readers. Good well thought out stuff as usual from Craig.

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Yes, I partly agree if the purpose is to compare totally unequalized subs, which is of course fine. But don't you agree that it ok to use subwoofer's own EQ, like PEQ or R-DES? I mean they will come with the sub, so why not use them? Everybody would use them right?

When looking at the pictures Craig just posted (are Ultra's screw holes plugged?), it shows that Craig hasn't adjusted Ultra's phase nor PEQ at all (it is also interesting that the gain is way past halfway, but I guess his receiver's sub out is low then). His phase could be ok at 0 degrees, I can't tell, but I think he should at least use some amount of PEQ to make the FR as good as possible.

I overlaid the FR graphs (will post soon) and they really seem interesting. Ultra actually have more flatter/linear FR than either HSU. Both HSU's have a huge ~5-15 dB bump in 20-60 Hz range. And that is without using any PEQ on Ultra. When knowing Ultra's quasi-anechoic FR, it will be very interesting to see how HSU turns out.

When looking at the overlaid graphs, it should be a very easy job for SMS-1 to make them practically identical. Just bring down that bump on HSUs and it's done. Or boost Ultra a little bit and bring HSU a little bit done, what ever sounds best. THAT would be an interesting experiment. Will the small changes Craig has heard between them go away after they have identical FRs?

craigsub said:

With the Turbo, the unit is delivering 75 dB. Take out the Turbo, and it is still delivering 75 dB. What would you recalibrate it to ? Remember, the Turbo does not restrict air flow. This is not the same as putting in a port bung.

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Craig,

Are you using wideband PN or bandwidth limited PN for calibration?

And actually turbo vs. port plugs have nothing to do with this. Neither one restricts the air flow at the levels you calibrate them.

craigsub said:

Here are some in room sweeps using the QuickSweep function of TrueRTA. TrueRTA's Quicksweep takes a 1/24th octave sweep - then allows a smoothing to be applied. This is with 1/6th octave smoothing.

This is the type of response one usually gets with no eq ... in fact, most are worse.

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Craig,

You shouldn't try to lie to a guy, who has spent more time with TrueRTA than it's suggested.

Those are NOT 1/24 oct. graphs using 1/6 oct. smoothing. Those are only 1/6 oct. graphs without smoothing. You can clearly count the datapoints.

How come it is so hard to show pure 1/24 oct. FR, without any smoothing or other tweaks that can make the FR look better than it is? You didn't use the old Stryke CD, did you? You guys (you and jakeman) blasted me for using only 1/24 oct. rez and not using any highrez software like LMS in my shootout, but now suddenly 1/6 oct. is okay?

Ok, here are the overlaid graphs.

HSU HO with and without the turbo:



HSU HO without turbo and SVS Ultra 16 Hz



HSU HO with turbo and SVS Ultra 16 Hz



There are pretty huge differeces between them. I'm actually really surprised that you didn't subjectively hear any large differences between them. I guess you're not that golden ear I though you'd be. I mean 5-15 dB difference in 20-60 Hz range should be pretty audible.

It would be interesting if you could bring HSU's bump down and see how they compare after that. And please, take the new measurements using 1/24 oct. resolution without any smoothing, that's all I'm asking.

zonomorph said:

Is the PB-12 Plus/2 as good as the HO and Ultra sound quality wise, or does that extra output come at a price?

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Actually at least Craig has said that he liked the Plus/2 far more better than the Ultra. I'm not sure if he meant output wise or quality wise or both.

Okay, I did a fun experiment with the graphs Craig posted. Since I have Ultra's GP results, I just compared the two curves and added or substracted desibels based on what Craig's in-room responses showed.

Here is how they turned out.

We all know that it can't be true. HSU HO would never had that bad quasi-anechoic FR. So Craig, have you EQ'ed either SVS or HSU HO in your room before taking those measurements? I can't explain the difference otherwise.

(relative SPL, not representing max output)

The "man" from Finland had this to say:

You shouldn't try to lie to a guy, who has spent more time with TrueRTA than it's suggested.

Those are NOT 1/24 oct. graphs using 1/6 oct. smoothing. Those are only 1/6 oct. graphs without smoothing. You can clearly count the datapoints.

How come it is so hard to show pure 1/24 oct. FR, without any smoothing or other tweaks that can make the FR look better than it is? You didn't use the old Stryke CD, did you? You guys (you and jakeman) blasted me for using only 1/24 oct. rez and not using any highrez software like LMS in my shootout, but now suddenly 1/6 oct. is okay?

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These were 1/24th octave sweeps smoothed to 1/6th octave. Period. This individual is here for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

At no time have I used the Stryke CD for anything.

Anyway - to be called a liar in open forum by this individual is just plain ridiculous. The mods will be notified, and there will be no further testing until he is removed.

Thanks to everyone else who has come into this thread with the intent to learn. We are currently about 30% done - EQ'ing was going to be the issue next week.

craigsub said:

The "man" from Finland had this to say:

These were 1/24th octave sweeps smoothed to 1/6th octave. Period. This individual is here for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

At no time have I used the Stryke CD for anything.

Anyway - to be called a liar in open forum by this individual is just plain ridiculous. The mods will be notified, and there will be no further testing until he is removed.

Thanks to everyone else who has come into this thread with the intent to learn. We are currently about 30% done - EQ'ing was going to be the issue next week.

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Craig,

I'm not stirring the pot, I just want to keep things honest and fair to both contenders.

Those are 1/6 octave graphs, with no smoothing. Show us the right sidebar where is shows it and everybody will see it.

Here is a small comparison. Top curve is full 1/24 oct. without any smoothing, bottom curve is same resolution, but 1/6 oct. smoothing. You see there are still 24 datapoints for every octave. Your graphs only show 6 datapoints for every octave.



Here is the same response, but with 1/6 oct. resolution. Kinda hides some peaks and valleys, eh?



Here is your graph with only similar 6 datapoints per octave.

The mods have been notified. There will be no further testing until you are removed.

_____________________________________________

To the remaining 99.999 % - I am in no way interested in participating in a thread with this individual.

If you take the graphs I posted - I ran about 50 sweeps with each subwoofer last night, from all over the room, some were +/- 15 dB ... others were much flatter. I posted an average graph for each.

Just moving the microphone a few inches makes a huge difference...

Part of this test is to show is how difficult it is to place and calibrate a subwoofer in the real world, and why an EQ will assist in getting a better in room response.

craigsub said:

The mods have been notified. There will be no further testing until you are removed.

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You can notify as many mods you want, but it doesn't change the facts. If they are smart (they are not Bott ), they see what is happening.

If you take the graphs I posted - I ran about 50 sweeps with each subwoofer last night, from all over the room, some were +/- 15 dB ... others were much flatter. I posted an average graph for each.

Just moving the microphone a few inches makes a huge difference...

Part of this test is to show is how difficult it is to place and calibrate a subwoofer in the real world, and why an EQ will assist in getting a better in room response.

Click to expand...

So were the mics at the same place for both subs? Those subs are closer than 1' from each other, so it would be very hard to believe that there are that large differences between their in-room frequency responses...

And everybody, please, attack me for meddling with this great thread. That's exactly what Craig wants you to do. His comments are straight examples from "Human Psychology 123". "I'm not gonna tell you, unless THAT person leaves the room". :rolleys:

But I would also suggest you to open your eyes and not to act like a flock of sheeple.

mulester7 said:

.....so what is it you're saying or implying?....wouldn't the same standard of graphing applying to both, represent results close enough to be taken as legitimate reporting?....

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As my little example showed, 1/6 oct. response can hide some ugly things.

Also Craig wants to ban me, because I called him liar. Yet his graphs ARE only 1/6 octave graphs. If he lied once, why can't he lie regarding something else too?

Do you really believe there is that large difference between in-room frequency response of those two subwoofers without applying "some" EQ on either one of both of them? Check my GP comparison graph if you do. Also don't you think that the difference could be a reason for "some" of the small differences he heard between them? :rolleys:

Sorry for "ruining" your sweet and innocent thread, but someones got to do it, if others can't see it.

To those who are watching this thread suddenly slide into the gutter, my apologies. I was hoping we could avoid this type of behavior on Audioholics - but apparently, we cannot.

Let's give the mods some time to do their jobs, and see what happens.

If the thread ends here, thanks to all those who participated in the spirit if goodwill, fun, and perhaps to learn a few things along the way.

Craig,

There is no need to end this great thread. You just need to shape up a bit and be more honest regarding what you say and post. We ALL want a honest and fair comparison between these subs, right?

First of all you could post 1/24 oct. (no smoothing) FR graphs for both subs. Totally non-equalized. Mic at LP.

I am tired of the public airing of this individual’s personal agenda against the OP. I realize this is a public forum but the 35K hits (views) this thread has received is indicative of the interest it creates in the audio community. It would be a shame to have it end at the hands of such a disingenuous and immature individual. I think the personal slander in calling the OP a liar is sufficient cause. This should not be a place where this type of behavior is tolerated.

RMK! said:

I am tired of the public airing of this individual’s personal agenda against the OP. I realize this is a public forum but the 40K hits (views) this thread has received is indicative of the interest it creates in the audio community. It would be a shame to have it end at the hands of such a disingenuous and immature individual. I think the personal slander in calling the OP a liar is sufficient cause. This should not be a place where this type of behavior is tolerated.

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There is no personal agenda. Craig is a great guy for starting this kind of comparo between two probably most wanted Internet direct subs at the moment. I only want to make this comparo as honest and fair as possible.

And tell me, was Craig lying (altering the truth if you want ) when he said that those graphs were 1/24 oct. graphs?

And I quess is ok for YOU to call someone "disingenuous and immature" without any reason?

Please leave Ilkka, for the sake of all the individuals that are interested in this thread. The data speaks for it's self wether it is 1/6 or 1/24, it still shows what both subs will typically do without EQing.

I know craig doesn't need defending but this isn't for him, it's for everyone else that's SICK of you hounding others about silly details or misc crap (please don't defend yourself, there's no need)

Please Ilkka, sit this one out. The next thread is all yours.


JR

I am not going to be drawn into a debate with you Ilkka and I do not believe that honesty and fairness are your goals. If you want to do your own “comparo” then do so. Your accusations smack of McCarthyism and casually throwing out terms like liar that can do damage to an individuals reputation should not be tolerated. I would only hope that those viewing this will consider the source.

RMK! said:

I am not gong to be drawn into a debate with you Ilkka and I do not believe that honesty and fairness are your goals. If you want to do your own “comparo” then do so. Your accusations smack of McCarthyism and casually throwing out terms like liar that can do damage to an individuals reputation should not be tolerated. I would only hope that those viewing this will consider the source.

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This is not a debate. I only would have wanted your honest opinion if Craig was telling the truth or not.