High Instantaneous Current Amp Spec

mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
fact or fiction?

1) an HK AVR 335 with 55wpc will beat a yam rx-v1500 with 120wpc because it has high amperage.

2) the yam 120wpc is BS


my definition of beat = it will sound better ; it will have more power in running a particular speaker

Update:

This thread has now become the official "High Instantaneous Current Amp Spec" thread for future reference.

<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial"><A href="http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/HighCurrentAmps.php"><IMG style="WIDTH: 125px; HEIGHT: 125px" alt=[voltage] hspace=10 src="http://www.audioholics.com/news/thumbs/voltage_th.gif" align=left border=0></A>This very subject came up recently in the Audioholics forum and&nbsp;Dan Banquer&nbsp;further expands upon it,&nbsp;while also providing a historical&nbsp;perspective of how this specification became popular.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some manufacturers enjoy touting that their receivers/amplifiers can deliver a whopping +-75amps of current.&nbsp; But is this spec really valid, or another bogus marketing ploy to mislead unwary consumers?&nbsp; </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial">[Read the Article]</SPAN></P>

[edited: ADMIN 10/25/05]
 
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Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
Statement 2 first;
Yes, the Yamaha 120w claim is BS. But no more so than most of the Japanese reciever's claims to power. That spec is not "all channels driven". HK is definety more true with their power claims than Yamaha, Denon or Sony.

Will it sound better? That is a matter of opinion. Will it actually have more watts per channel than the Yamaha, and I assume you are refering to the Yamaha 1500/1600/5790/or 5890; Not really.

Generalizing, the HK will probably drive inefficient speakers better, but what matters really is what sounds better. Right?
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
oh, for the front speakers it will be the beta 40 OR beta 50
10-200w and 10-250w respectively 91db sensitivity

"sounds better" of course is relative to the amps capability to power the speaker in the first place
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If you can believe the S&V lab reports, look at these numbers:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=863&page_number=1

Yamaha RX-V657
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 181/278 W (22.6/24.4 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 67 W (18.3 dBW)

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/322004163324.pdf


Harman Kardon AVR330
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 95/148 W (19.8/21.7 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 66 W (18.2 dBW)

An interesting footnote on the HKAVR330:

When driving multichannel 4-ohm loads with steadystate
test signals (sine tones), the receiver activated
its protection modes after about half a
second if it was asked to produce more than
about 25 watts. Single-channel performance
was unaffected, and real-world dynamic signals
presented no problem with these low-impedance
loads.

I can't find any lab reports for the RX-V1500 but logically it should produce better results than the RX-V657. So if I may borrow Gene's expression, the Yammie should have more dynamic power output.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
It goes back to my unscientific rating of weight. When a 55wpc HK weighs more than a 120wpc Yammy, then you need to look internally to see whats going on.

Generally, what makes up the bulk of the weight of an amp is the power supply (i.e. toroidal transformer), and the heat sink(s). The bigger the power supply, the more current it will produce, and more efficiently.

The larger the heat sink, the longer the unit can run at reference levels. Heat can shut down even the best monoblocs. That's why these massive Krell and McIntosh class A and AB amps weigh in excess of 100lbs. They have huge heat sinks to dissapate heat. Keeping the heat away from the electronics will allow the unit to run longer with less distortion.

There are currently no receivers on the market, rated with any type of THX certification, that weigh less than 33lbs. THX standards are pretty high, and only those receivers that make the grade can put the THX label on their units. To date, the Pioneer 1015 is the most economical THX receiver you can buy new. THX is not an end all to receiver ratings (other outstanding units don't have this THX rating, and weigh in excess of 33lbs - but choose to save the certification dollars to pass on to you and I).

What is rarely ever discussed is current limiting. Many of these sub $1000 receivers have very similar ratings. Some choose a higher current limiter to protect the unit. This is critical if the heat sink and protection circuits cannot handle what is flowing through the unit. I'm not sure how to find out what units utilize what size current limiters, but that may be of interest in other topics.

IMO the weight of a unit (or THX certification) in deciding upon receivers sure beats the watts per channel B.S. the FTC tries to regulate. It's not scientific, but I feel it works.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
NomoSony said:
Statement 2 first;

Generalizing, the HK will probably drive inefficient speakers better, but what matters really is what sounds better. Right?
There is little chance the AVR335 will drive inefficient speakers better than the RX-V1500. The AVR635 will most certainly do. I have heard several HK receivers driving a relatively efficient RTi10, and I won't consider anything less than the AVR630.

This high current thing is often misunderstood. Those high (75A for the 635) currents are "instantaneous" values. Others, such as Denon & Yamaha also claim high current capable.

If you look at the 4 ohm output ratings, a good indication of high current capability, HK does not do better than Denon/Yamaha (models at the same price range). They are more honest about their numbers, but it does not make their numbers higher than their direct competitors.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Buckeyefan 1 said:
It goes back to my unscientific rating of weight. When a 55wpc HK weighs more than a 120wpc Yammy, then you need to look internally to see whats going on.

Generally, what makes up the bulk of the weight of an amp is the power supply (i.e. toroidal transformer), and the heat sink(s). The bigger the power supply, the more current it will produce, and more efficiently.

The larger the heat sink, the longer the unit can run at reference levels. Heat can shut down even the best monoblocs. That's why these massive Krell and McIntosh class A and AB amps weigh in excess of 100lbs. They have huge heat sinks to dissapate heat. Keeping the heat away from the electronics will allow the unit to run longer with less distortion.

There are currently no receivers on the market, rated with any type of THX certification, that weigh less than 33lbs. THX standards are pretty high, and only those receivers that make the grade can put the THX label on their units. To date, the Pioneer 1015 is the most economical THX receiver you can buy new. THX is not an end all to receiver ratings (other outstanding units don't have this THX rating, and weigh in excess of 33lbs - but choose to save the certification dollars to pass on to you and I).

IMO the weight of a unit (or THX certification) in deciding upon receivers sure beats the watts per channel B.S. the FTC tries to regulate. It's not scientific, but I feel it works.
Buck, I agree with your weight theory but I would add that there are exceptions to your rules. The highly regarded ARCAM AVR300 barely make your 33 lbs threshold, but it offers plenty of all channel driven power. The Yammie RX-V4600 weighs almost 40 lb but did poorly on a recent all channel test (possibly due to the test methodology and the way its protection circuit works), worse than its lowly little brother RX-V657. And how about the Sony STR-DA4ES, it weighs 21 kg/46 lbs, the 9000ES even heavier at almost 63 lbs, but how much power you think they can put out.

I hope we don't get Gene all cranked up again! Gene may not be pleased, but thanks to Mike C, this is the right place for those who enjoys technical debate to park. I bet you mtry, MDS will be checking in soon.
 
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mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
but please dont forget the fact or fiction questions

statement 3
without going into ALL channel driving discussion ... is statement 1 fact or fiction (that would mean 2 channel mode)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay,
1) Not fact, not sure if its fiction or not.
2) 120WPC may be closer to fact, certainly not 120W all channel driven, but I don't think Yamaha has ever made that all channel driven claim.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Fact 1 is fiction. That's one of the many urban legends...'55 HK watts is like 100 Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo watts'. It's B.S. and I'll leave it to gene to carry on with the explanation for the umpteenth time.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Fact 1 is fiction. That's one of the many urban legends...'55 HK watts is like 100 Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo watts'. It's B.S. and I'll leave it to gene to carry on with the explanation for the umpteenth time.
Actually I am done for now. Some people are still missing the point and starting new threads. Ignorance is bliss sometimes :rolleyes:
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
gene said:
Actually I am done for now. Some people are still missing the point and starting new threads. Ignorance is bliss sometimes :rolleyes:
sorry gene, i did not know this urban legend was related to the all driven channels thingy ...
this really isnt my main hobby, and i dont understand a thing about these technical stuff (and plan to stop trying once ive bought everything i need)

mds said you've discussed this before, what keyword do i use to search for it
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
mike c said:
sorry gene, i did not know this urban legend was related to the all driven channels thingy ...

mds said you've discussed this before, what keyword do i use to search for it
Go back to page 1. In his first response, Gene did post a link to that 5 page debate.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
PENG said:
Go back to page 1. In his first response, Gene did post a link to that 5 page debate.
"explain it to me like im a five year old"

really? so this high amperage thing really is related to the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN thread? i wouldnt have started this thread if i had an inkling that this was related.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
NomoSony said:
Statement 2 first;
Yes, the Yamaha 120w claim is BS. But no more so than most of the Japanese reciever's claims to power. That spec is not "all channels driven".
NomoSony said:
Absolute bs. Did Yam claim this power with all channels driven??? Or is it your desire for them to rate their amps as such???

HK is definety more true with their power claims than Yamaha, Denon or Sony.

Nonsense. They just make a different claim, period.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
No, I don't think it is all that related, may be to a point. To me, your thread is more about the high current thingy, as you called it.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
fact or fiction?

1) an HK AVR 335 with 55wpc will beat a yam rx-v1500 with 120wpc because it has high amperage.
Fiction. The 335 will not beat a 1500. The 1500 also has high current.

2) the yam 120wpc is BS
It's not B.S. 120 wpc (per channel means one channel) is attainable based on the specs they used to arrive at that rating. They may have used 20-20,000Hz, .04% THD, at 8 ohms. There's more to 120 wpc than 120 wpc.

My advice is to go to the manufacturers manual, and scroll down to the last page (or last pages - usually remote control codes make up the very last pages). There you will get honest ratings from better manufacturers.


my definition of beat = it will sound better ; it will have more power in running a particular speaker
More power doesn't mean sound better. So no, one unit will not sound better than the other, until driven into audible distortion. Whichever one reaches distortion first when level matched will sound worse at that point in time. Until you reach that audible distortion level (it may be > 1% THD), they'll probably sound very similar if tone controls are set as flat as possible.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was right, Gene did get crank up, MDS & mtrycrafts did check in.........hehehehehhe........

Keep it going, this high current thing is another urban legend!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mike c said:
fact or fiction?

1) an HK AVR 335 with 55wpc will beat a yam rx-v1500 with 120wpc because it has high amperage.
mike c said:
fiction on both counts.

2) the yam 120wpc is BS
my definition of beat = it will sound better ; it will have more power in running a particular speaker


Not sure what their claim is for RMS power but probaly very close to that number.

As to sounding better, that is fiction as well.
 

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