Why do horn loaded tweeters resolve more detail than conventional domes?

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
umm..at lot of SS amps with a very "flat" line can and do sound well flat. For some that's not a good sound either and pair that up with a horn loaded tweeter some may not like the end result at all. But then combining the two in a home theater system would probably get a real thrilling experience out of the sound reproduction with all of the processing involved with the different sounds fields. Again a whole other aspect of audio use. Very subjective it is.
If a speaker sounds bad with an amp that has a neutral response, it is the speaker that is bad, not the amp.
 
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Tankman

Audioholic
If a speaker sounds bad with an amp that has a neutral response, it is the speaker that is bad, not the amp.
Who said load horn tweeters sound bad with a neutral flat response amp? In what I posted,not once did I mention that it would sound bad with a flat line amp. What I posted was some do not like that combination together. Very subjective statement I posted. The one thing I have found with this hobby some speaker designs with certain drivers aka horn loaded tweeter can and do sound "bright" when matched with a amp that has a very good flat line. For me I have found that one of the most over looked aspects of this hobby is matching the right speakers with the right amp. Have I read this before somewhere? Sure I have but through experience and many years in this hobby I have come know through trial and error and lots of money spent that it is a true statement.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Here's a question for ya. Have you ever seen a company make an about face and today change the tweeter they use? Like if Kilpsch knows the horn tweeter is so controversial why not change it? Why doesn't some other company switch to a ribbon tweeter? Companies just don't do that right?

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If you look at JBL, you will see an "indiscriminate" mix of domes, horns, and domes with wave guides; so much so, that if they weren't such a well established brand as JBL is, I'd wonder if they know what the hell they are doing!

https://www.google.com/search?q=jbl+speakers&rlz=1C1VSNC_enUS559US559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_yqi0-JLUAhWJ8YMKHSewBKQQ_AUICygC&biw=1177&bih=638#tbm=isch&q=jbl+floorstanding+speakers

 
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Tankman

Audioholic
If you look at JBL, you will see an "indiscriminate" mix of domes, horns, and domes with wave guides; so much so, that if they weren't such a well established brand as JBL is, I'd wonder if they know what the hell they are doing!

https://www.google.com/search?q=jbl+speakers&rlz=1C1VSNC_enUS559US559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_yqi0-JLUAhWJ8YMKHSewBKQQ_AUICygC&biw=1177&bih=638#tbm=isch&q=jbl+floorstanding+speakers

I like the 2nd pair I have been researching those and couldn't find a photo with the front grill off. Thanks. I believe, me speaking just for the sake of saying something that might not be stupid, I feel JBL, like the the ones in your post are more geared up for Rock, Pop..music? Could be wrong about that I had a pair of Infinity Towers which come from the same makers Harman Kardon if my ole memory is working right. But JBL's do sound very good when pushed with a nice add on amp. But that was way back in the mid 70's when I heard a pair of JBL's those in your post look nothing like the ones from my stomping ground days

Mike
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I like the 2nd pair I have been researching those and couldn't find a photo with the front grill off. Thanks. I believe, me speaking just for the sake of saying something that might not be stupid, I feel JBL, like the the ones in your post are more geared up for Rock, Pop..music? Could be wrong about that I had a pair of Infinity Towers which come from the same makers Harman Kardon if my ole memory is working right. But JBL's do sound very good when pushed with a nice add on amp.
I have owned several JBL speakers and some of them are good with all types of music, including classical, chorus, and jazz. The JBL bi-radial horn in the Studio 5 series are one of those that can handle all types of music.

Now as far as horn tweeters having more detail than other types of speakers -- I have found that it is not really true. It all comes down to the design and engineering of a speaker as a whole. There are some dome tweeter speakers out there, that are better than some of them poorly designed blaring and nasal sounding horn speakers that have been designed for the home. The JBL Studio 5 series, is one of the better horn loaded speakers that I have owned and listened to.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I have to say that I disagree with Dr Geddes. To me speakers with the widest dispersion with the best FR off axis sound best.

I alluded earlier to their being something of a divide on the program the speaker is designed to play.

Pretty much all classical music is recorded in an ambient field. In addition it is listened to live in spaces where the the bulk of the sound reaching the audience is reflected and not direct sound. However the music tends to be recorded at a place where the direct content is high. This I believe is due to speaker deficiencies and not microphone deficiencies. I have made hundreds of recordings. I have found that my speakers and some others will reproduce music recorded in the far field, but the vast majority will not.

So it means that for a speaker to reproduce this type of program accurately then the listener needs as much reflected sound as possible. However this only works if the speaker has a pretty accurate FR response in the off axis response.

Pop music on the other hand is recorded usually with the ambient filed excluded as much as possible and ambiance added back artificially. In this situation I suspect some control and narrowing of dispersion may be beneficial.

I'm not sure about this though. I don't like or listen to pop and rock, and make no attempt to design for it in my systems. However individuals seem to want to come here to check mixes and like the sound. So I remain uncertain as to whether speakers do have to be designed with a specific program in mind. I do know that speakers with an "up front" sound are hopeless for the reproduction of classical music.

This is the dispersion and FR of my mains.



The black line is 90 degrees off axis, the blue line is on axis, the others points between.

As you know these speakers are large, and you can decide if they are ugly. However they are truly full range and high spl. They produce a very deep depth of field and the sound is not up and close and in your face. There is plenty of detail.

I have to say my favorite tweeters are the best soft dome tweeters.

These speakers use this one.

Concerning the topic at hand the most important observation I would make is that you can not judge a tweeter in isolation. You are inevitably judging it based on the performance of the driver below it. In fact I would suggest you are more often than not you are judging the driver below the crossover to the tweeter than the tweeter.

As you know I continually stress the importance of selecting wide band drivers. The problem again is dispersion. Getting good driver match to a tweeter is important and difficult. If crossover can truly be achieved before break up of the mid or mid woofer, then it makes life much easier. If motion is still pistonic the dispersion will be excellent, and it is easier to mate to a high dispersion tweeter. Most drivers are breaking up before crossover. It is here most problems arise, as only expensive drivers are not going to break up by a good crossover point to a tweeter. Getting the crossover either out of the speech discrimination band or pushing it to the top end of the speech discrimination band I believe has great benefit.

The other option is to lower the crossover point. This however increases the power drive to the tweeter and risks burn out.

In addition unless the tweeter is down 24 db electrically by resonance it will sound rough, unless it is a very low Qts driver. Those are not common.

In the speaker I illustrated the light rigid cones are pistonic to crossover at 2.5 KHz, but break up violently less than an octave above crossover which has to be dealt with. Another half octave before break up would be advantageous. However as always this is where compromise comes in. You just have to cut your cloth to the units you have selected.

If you are mating a tweeter to a drive unit already in irregular break up then more than likely you will blame the tweeter.

Lastly Klipsch no longer use horn loaded compression drivers. They now use soft dome tweeters with a horn in front.

In addition they are crossing over at 1500 Hz. They pay the penalty with a higher incidence of tweeter VC burn out. I have no idea of the Fs or Qts of those tweeters.
The ones I have have aluminum compression drivers, and they're new. Never seen a klipsch with soft dome tweeters.

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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I think an important point missed here is that horns specifically allow for greater distance with less propagation loss. High frequency wave lengths are measured in millimeters, and as such, directivity increases with frequency.

The JBL M2 is an example of how far the research of horn geometry has gone in its ability to measure consistently in home theaters all the way to 500 seat halls.


 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I am of the opinion that compression drivers properly equalized and not breaking up, can sound phenomenal and it's more than just the horn. CDs have dynamic range that other drivers can only dream of and their low SPL distortion characteristics are predominantly 2nd and 3rd order harmonics which blend well with natural harmonics present in recordings. I don't think in a home setting I have ever heard a CD strain.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I am of the opinion that compression drivers properly equalized and not breaking up, can sound phenomenal and it's more than just the horn. CDs have dynamic range that other drivers can only dream of and their low SPL distortion characteristics are predominantly 2nd and 3rd order harmonics which blend well with natural harmonics present in recordings. I don't think in a home setting I have ever heard a CD strain.
Great to see you back!!!

Can you tell us a model of speaker representative of this?
 
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Tankman

Audioholic
Great to see you back!!!

Can you tell us a model of speaker representative of this?
umm..a Vifar tweeter I do believe would give a horn a run for its money...not the cheap knock off ones subjectively speaking.:D
 
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Tankman

Audioholic
If you can get past the prosound aesthetics, the Vue h-12w fits the bill.
Only actually heard one set not in a home speaker
If you can get past the prosound aesthetics, the Vue h-12w fits the bill.
How you knew I was talking about that one? But your spot on it was a pair of pro speakers I had heard them in..I can't sneak much by you ole timers in here. I see I will have to brush up my ole memory just to keep up with you guys in here..

Mike
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I am of the opinion that compression drivers properly equalized and not breaking up, can sound phenomenal and it's more than just the horn. CDs have dynamic range that other drivers can only dream of and their low SPL distortion characteristics are predominantly 2nd and 3rd order harmonics which blend well with natural harmonics present in recordings. I don't think in a home setting I have ever heard a CD strain.
Absolutely! Compression driver and horn work as a system. I am very anxious to hear the JBL 7 series speakers, I love the simplicity of active speakers, like the ones you suggested. Do you own those? One plus to the JBL's is their extensive tuning options, you can tune those to work in any room!

TLSguy is cracking me up tonight! Bringing facts to a feelings fight.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
What model does this go to? None of the speakers I own have soft domes in them, they're all aluminum or titanium compression drivers.

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What model does this go to? None of the speakers I own have soft domes in them, they're all aluminum or titanium compression drivers.

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These models, and apparently others.
K-72, K-73, K-74, K-75, K-80, K-85

It is a fabric dome on a kapton former.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
These models, and apparently others.
K-72, K-73, K-74, K-75, K-80, K-85

It is a fabric dome on a kapton former.
Looks like the Klipsch RP speakers use titanium domes. From a review, "a one-inch titanium-dome horn-loaded tweeter." Here is a picture of the tweeter used. I don't care that they made the switch, the compression drivers used in the previous Reference speakers weren't amazing.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Looks like the Klipsch RP speakers use titanium domes. From a review, "a one-inch titanium-dome horn-loaded tweeter." Here is a picture of the tweeter used. I don't care that they made the switch, the compression drivers used in the previous Reference speakers weren't amazing.
Don't really care what they use, their RP series is very accurate, has great imaging, and is very efficient. Their efficiency specs are much more accurate now as well. I have a pair of reference II speakers and their new lower model reference series, same size, same efficiency rating, but the newer model is about 3dB louder. I do believe their tech specs list it as a compression driver, not sure if it actually is or not. The specs on my R-15ms list a 1" driver, yet the throat of the horn only measures about 5/16", so obviously the driver is larger than the opening, which is typical of a compression driver.

Either way, klipsch has managed to work out most of the flaws that came with their old reference models, no harshness, much wider imaging across the entire frequency range etc. Its all about compromise I guess. For me, high SPL, hair trigger dynamics, and low distortion are my main priority. Obviously accuracy is important as well, but the new series is accurate.

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