Why do horn loaded tweeters resolve more detail than conventional domes?

Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
If it's all a compromise, why do so many manufacturers describe their products as 'uncompromising'? :D
Ha. I suppose it depends on what's uncompromised. Obviously compromises must be made, that's how the universe works. I will say though, on their new series, klipsch really does have few, if any compromises and they really have figured out how to have their cake and eat it too. They're highly efficient, highly accurate, (no longer harsh or bright) low distortion, and have fantastic bass response. I get an in room response down to 50hz with my small R -15m bookshelves, and they outperform my sub 1500 in distortion free loudness. At 105dB at 3m the maximum THD (above the tuning frequency ) is 5.46% at 70hz. Past 1000hz it's <1%. Response is +-3dB across the entire spectrum and they have great off axis response. Horizontally I didn't even start noticing a major change until I got past 45 degrees off axis.

I'm sure there's some technical compromise I'm not aware of, but I can't think of one.

I do believe though that the consumer home audio world has made unnecessary compromises in the interest of WAF and size. It's entirely possible to design a speaker that is flat from 20hz-20khz with few compromises, but people don't like big ugly speakers.


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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
It's entirely possible to design a speaker that is flat from 20hz-20khz with few compromises, but people don't like big ugly speakers.
Everyone except me. :D I still like big ugly speakers.

99% of what is stated as compromises these days is because the internet tells people it is so. Seemingly, every description, the language etc, has everyone reading from the same book. What this ends up being really good for is the marketers and the mass manufacturers. Who can magically blanket the entire population with a few designs, instead of real, custom considerations, yet still for the custom price.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Of course you CAN make speakers that are flat 20-20K. Just don't expect to sell many of them because while that may be the ideal, not many will pony up the cash for them, the required amplification and space they'll require. Other side of that is, do I need a speaker like that to enjoy music? In theorey yes. In realistic terms, no.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Of course you CAN make speakers that are flat 20-20K. Just don't expect to sell many of them because while that may be the ideal, not many will pony up the cash for them, the required amplification and space they'll require. Other side of that is, do I need a speaker like that to enjoy music? In theorey yes. In realistic terms, no.
Wow I could not agree with this post more!

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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Ha. I suppose it depends on what's uncompromised. Obviously compromises must be made, that's how the universe works. I will say though, on their new series, klipsch really does have few, if any compromises and they really have figured out how to have their cake and eat it too. They're highly efficient, highly accurate, (no longer harsh or bright) low distortion, and have fantastic bass response. I get an in room response down to 50hz with my small R -15m bookshelves, and they outperform my sub 1500 in distortion free loudness. At 105dB at 3m the maximum THD (above the tuning frequency ) is 5.46% at 70hz. Past 1000hz it's <1%. Response is +-3dB across the entire spectrum and they have great off axis response. Horizontally I didn't even start noticing a major change until I got past 45 degrees off axis.

I'm sure there's some technical compromise I'm not aware of, but I can't think of one.

I do believe though that the consumer home audio world has made unnecessary compromises in the interest of WAF and size. It's entirely possible to design a speaker that is flat from 20hz-20khz with few compromises, but people don't like big ugly speakers.


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Don't trust distortion measurements made indoors. What could be happening is that sympathetic vibrations from surrounding objects can be mistaken by the RTA as harmonics. I would not assume from your measurements that the Klipsch speakers would have lower distortion than a Sub 1500.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Wow, those speakers are a monstrosity. Seriously, I could see them scaring children. Just looking at them makes me a bit uneasy myself. Those are speakers I would describe as 'Lovecraftian.'
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
They look like giant nightmare frogs lol. Even if they sounded spectacular, I don't think I could handle them.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Wow, just wow. No way I could deal with that. It looks like something out a clockwork Orange.

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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Holy $hit!!! I love big ugly speakers but nope. They look like a twizzlers commercial.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I kind of meant like big ugly normal looking speakers. Those things are just vulgar looking, in a violated kind of way. That's a lot to go through, for an audiophile fix. The more I see the extremes, the further I remain planted in the more simple approaches.
 
T

Tankman

Audioholic
Why do horn loaded Tweeters resolve more detail then conventional dome?

You ask a "loaded" question.:p
or could be cuzz they sound better cuss they stay "loaded" all the time.
or maybe they where just born that way. Either way man, all I know is my speakers reveal more detail when I stay "loaded" I save lots of money like that..:p..
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If I remember correctly, Dr. Earl Geddes has argued in the past that speakers with wide dispersion can smear detail because of all the early reflections that reach a listener. He thinks that since constant directivity speakers, such as many horn loaded designs, do not create nearly as many reflection points, they will preserve detail. There are many papers written on this subject if you want to learn more.
I have to say that I disagree with Dr Geddes. To me speakers with the widest dispersion with the best FR off axis sound best.

I alluded earlier to their being something of a divide on the program the speaker is designed to play.

Pretty much all classical music is recorded in an ambient field. In addition it is listened to live in spaces where the the bulk of the sound reaching the audience is reflected and not direct sound. However the music tends to be recorded at a place where the direct content is high. This I believe is due to speaker deficiencies and not microphone deficiencies. I have made hundreds of recordings. I have found that my speakers and some others will reproduce music recorded in the far field, but the vast majority will not.

So it means that for a speaker to reproduce this type of program accurately then the listener needs as much reflected sound as possible. However this only works if the speaker has a pretty accurate FR response in the off axis response.

Pop music on the other hand is recorded usually with the ambient filed excluded as much as possible and ambiance added back artificially. In this situation I suspect some control and narrowing of dispersion may be beneficial.

I'm not sure about this though. I don't like or listen to pop and rock, and make no attempt to design for it in my systems. However individuals seem to want to come here to check mixes and like the sound. So I remain uncertain as to whether speakers do have to be designed with a specific program in mind. I do know that speakers with an "up front" sound are hopeless for the reproduction of classical music.

This is the dispersion and FR of my mains.



The black line is 90 degrees off axis, the blue line is on axis, the others points between.

As you know these speakers are large, and you can decide if they are ugly. However they are truly full range and high spl. They produce a very deep depth of field and the sound is not up and close and in your face. There is plenty of detail.

I have to say my favorite tweeters are the best soft dome tweeters.

These speakers use this one.

Concerning the topic at hand the most important observation I would make is that you can not judge a tweeter in isolation. You are inevitably judging it based on the performance of the driver below it. In fact I would suggest you are more often than not you are judging the driver below the crossover to the tweeter than the tweeter.

As you know I continually stress the importance of selecting wide band drivers. The problem again is dispersion. Getting good driver match to a tweeter is important and difficult. If crossover can truly be achieved before break up of the mid or mid woofer, then it makes life much easier. If motion is still pistonic the dispersion will be excellent, and it is easier to mate to a high dispersion tweeter. Most drivers are breaking up before crossover. It is here most problems arise, as only expensive drivers are not going to break up by a good crossover point to a tweeter. Getting the crossover either out of the speech discrimination band or pushing it to the top end of the speech discrimination band I believe has great benefit.

The other option is to lower the crossover point. This however increases the power drive to the tweeter and risks burn out.

In addition unless the tweeter is down 24 db electrically by resonance it will sound rough, unless it is a very low Qts driver. Those are not common.

In the speaker I illustrated the light rigid cones are pistonic to crossover at 2.5 KHz, but break up violently less than an octave above crossover which has to be dealt with. Another half octave before break up would be advantageous. However as always this is where compromise comes in. You just have to cut your cloth to the units you have selected.

If you are mating a tweeter to a drive unit already in irregular break up then more than likely you will blame the tweeter.

Lastly Klipsch no longer use horn loaded compression drivers. They now use soft dome tweeters with a horn in front.

In addition they are crossing over at 1500 Hz. They pay the penalty with a higher incidence of tweeter VC burn out. I have no idea of the Fs or Qts of those tweeters.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
As you know these speakers are large, and you can decide if they are ugly. However they are truly full range and high spl. They produce a very deep depth of field and the sound is not up and close and in your face. There is plenty of detail.
They are "impressive" looking. I don't really think speakers are really attractive except what the aesthetic represents with regard to performance or the engineering that goes into them. Either way, you did a fine job integrating them into your room.

My Tempests are kind of industrial or, perhaps even menacing looking, but I like the looks of them either way. These speakers look like they would be in your face but are rather refined sounding, for lack of a better explanation.

Oddly enough, the women that have seen them think they are "gorgeous" and I know some brutally critical bitches.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I kind of meant like big ugly normal looking speakers. Those things are just vulgar looking, in a violated kind of way. That's a lot to go through, for an audiophile fix. The more I see the extremes, the further I remain planted in the more simple approaches.
You ought to hear them. I had a pair of the big woofers, in corner-loaded cabinets- they had originally been used for the bass pedals of a church organ and if I could have gotten them into the basement of the house I bought, I definitely would have kept them.
 
T

Tankman

Audioholic
I don't think they do. Excessive detail is unnatural. A lot of horns have poor dispersion, so you get more direct sound and less reflected sound. We get into the pop/classical realm here. While a higher ratio of direct to reflected sound can work for pop and rock, it is terrible for classical music.
umm..at lot of SS amps with a very "flat" line can and do sound well flat. For some that's not a good sound either and pair that up with a horn loaded tweeter some may not like the end result at all. But then combining the two in a home theater system would probably get a real thrilling experience out of the sound reproduction with all of the processing involved with the different sounds fields. Again a whole other aspect of audio use. Very subjective it is.
 
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