New stereo integrated amplifier.

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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I can see that the usual group think still exists here, so I'll bow out and let the usual suspects put things "right".
Sadly, this is not new, it seems that it ends this way with you every time.:( It would be nice if we can all agree to disagree and accept the fact that some people actually may have better hearing and are capable of discerning minor differences that others are not capable of; and some people are just more prone to expectation bias and believe not everything that affects SQ are measurable.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I reread your previous posts. So explain why your integrated amp is different from another integrated amp (which is all an avr is really, just with the integration of an onboard source). The 4520 was just an observation I disagree with; the imaging is fine on things I play thru the 4520, pure direct or no. Maybe it isn't imaging you're describing, could be a gain difference from the little detail you've provided how you determine this in one unit vs another.

What was the specific example with Krall with your example of spatial cue differences? I can hold up for a song or two of examples before I fall asleep.
I ran REW again today to see how the stand alone Denon AVR-3805 compare with my Cambridge Audio pramp and Parasound A21. Speakers used were the R900s, the two amps were level matched, with the 3805 set to Pure Direct, both channel active.

Just so you don't have to guess, red is 3805, black is A21. The results were repeatable as long as I did not touch the Mic at all. Even if I gingerly unplugged the usb at the Mic end and plugged it back in without intentionally moving the Mic at all, the two graphs would pull apart only slightly, but enough to see the them separated from each other, mostly from around 500 Hz and up. Otherwise they are look really close, I doubt even real golden ears can hear any difference between these two amps, unless they can beat the Umik-1 Mic. The measured distortions were also very close, hard to say one is better than the other overall.

The 4520 is at least one notch above the 3805, so you have nothing to worry about.

3805PDVs840E&A21_24.3.2017b.jpg
 
E

<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
So how do you determine "imaging" from one amp to another?
You and I both know that nothing I can say will satisfy you - but here it goes.

For me personally, I determine it through long term critical listening, sitting as I always do in the sweet spot, in the same room, using the same speakers in the same exact position with recorded material that I'm very, very familiar with. To the point where I am well accustomed to of the virtual room dimensions and sound placement that a specific recording portrays. When you come across an amp that raises, broadens and deepens the dimensions of the room it is reproducing, you will know it. I hope you get to experience that someday.

Is it a combination of measurable attributes such as low envelope distortion, slew rate and bandwidth that produce this? Or is it the opposite? I don't know what the formula is or how you would go about measuring it but that doesn't mean it does not exist. History is littered with examples of individuals who's hunches were vindicated years after their deaths when science caught up and confirmed their theories.

One can chalk my experience up to optimism, creativity, placebo or whatever they like but I firmly believe that not all amplifiers sound the same and that the variables of audio reproduction and how soundwaves interact with the complex computer between our ears has yet to be fully understood by science. Whether we are talking about how our brains evolved to precisely localize the sound of a twig snapping in the woods in order to survive a predator or how it interprets the harmonics of a live or recorded violin.

Enjoy your weekend.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You and I both know that nothing I can say will satisfy you - but here it goes.

For me personally, I determine it through long term critical listening, sitting as I always do in the sweet spot, in the same room, using the same speakers in the same exact position with recorded material that I'm very, very familiar with. To the point where I am well accustomed to of the virtual room dimensions and sound placement that a specific recording portrays. When you come across an amp that raises, broadens and deepens the dimensions of the room it is reproducing, you will know it. I hope you get to experience that someday.

Is it a combination of measurable attributes such as low envelope distortion, slew rate and bandwidth that produce this? Or is it the opposite? I don't know what the formula is or how you would go about measuring it but that doesn't mean it does not exist. History is littered with examples of individuals who's hunches were vindicated years after their deaths when science caught up and confirmed their theories.

One can chalk my experience up to optimism, creativity, placebo or whatever they like but I firmly believe that not all amplifiers sound the same and that the variables of audio reproduction and how soundwaves interact with the complex computer between our ears has yet to be fully understood by science. Whether we are talking about how our brains evolved to precisely localize the sound of a twig snapping in the woods in order to survive a predator or how it interprets the harmonics of a live or recorded violin.

Enjoy your weekend.
So these are long term memories compared at different times? I've used quite a few amps and sorry just not the experience you're reporting. I don't clench my butt cheeks while listening in the same spot to the same thing over and over to try and determine gear differences either...
 
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<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
So these are long term memories compared at different times? I've used quite a few amps and sorry just not the experience you're reporting. I don't clench my butt cheeks while listening in the same spot to the same thing over and over to try and determine gear differences either...
There was no need for you to take the low road...
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You and I both know that nothing I can say will satisfy you - but here it goes.

For me personally, I determine it through long term critical listening, sitting as I always do in the sweet spot, in the same room, using the same speakers in the same exact position with recorded material that I'm very, very familiar with. To the point where I am well accustomed to of the virtual room dimensions and sound placement that a specific recording portrays. When you come across an amp that raises, broadens and deepens the dimensions of the room it is reproducing, you will know it. I hope you get to experience that someday.

Is it a combination of measurable attributes such as low envelope distortion, slew rate and bandwidth that produce this? Or is it the opposite? I don't know what the formula is or how you would go about measuring it but that doesn't mean it does not exist. History is littered with examples of individuals who's hunches were vindicated years after their deaths when science caught up and confirmed their theories.

One can chalk my experience up to optimism, creativity, placebo or whatever they like but I firmly believe that not all amplifiers sound the same and that the variables of audio reproduction and how soundwaves interact with the complex computer between our ears has yet to be fully understood by science. Whether we are talking about how our brains evolved to precisely localize the sound of a twig snapping in the woods in order to survive a predator or how it interprets the harmonics of a live or recorded violin.

Enjoy your weekend.
You believe what you believe. Placebo or not, as long as you enjoy your experience, that's what counts. For me, imaging is not an issue with any of my amps including my AVRs, never a problem. My references are not only super high end gear, but also live unamplified concerts.

Let's we all enjoy our weekends.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
While still on the stereo imaging topic, I just remember to dig out the brochure of my first pair of Energy speakers, the Reference 22 Connoisseur regarding the matched pairs feature for better stereo imaging.

http://www.borzelleri.com/photos/Energy_RefConn/energy-pro-22-brochure.pdf

Note that the 22 Pro Monitor was only matched to 1/2 dB left and right, while the higher end 22 reference and the flagship 22 reference Connoisseur (the one I had) were matched to 1/8 dB. I blew one tweeter one time and had to order a pair, mostly due to the matched pair policy.

I doubt too many speaker manufacturers bother to sell them in matched pairs any more due the the advance in technology that results in much better quality control to ensure the drivers and crossovers are within very tight tolerance.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
When you come across an amp that raises, broadens and deepens the dimensions of the room it is reproducing, you will know it. I hope you get to experience that someday.
I've experienced such a thing. It was an interesting exercise in technical detective work (at least for one educated in the lowly biological sciences) to whittle out what was going on, but in a nutshell, it was a flawed amp that was adding it's own peculiar subtle reverb effect. I'll admit that the added 'wetness' was a boon to some recordings, but it was not part of the original recording but rather the result of post-processing via flawed amplification.

What you fail to understand is that sound stage and imaging are a product of recording and production. If an amplifier does anything other than amplify, it's entered the realm of processor. You also fail to acknowledge the inherent weakness of sighted evaluations, regardless of how long they are. You frankly seem a bit naive on how all of this actually works, but strongly convinced of things that only appear in whimsical marketing material.

Oh, and this isn't groupthink. Think of the Audioholics ethos more as evidence based practice, and refusal to give false equivalency to unsubstantiated whimsy. It can be a bitter pill for those steeped in marketing lore, but realize that it's an approach that respects the music, and your wallet.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I entirely agree with PENG with the fact that a good stereo imaging has to do with the very closely matched response of speakers and nothing to do with the amplifiers.

In my front speaker enclosures, I am using Airborne Air Motion Ribbon tweeters, and you would believe that the main sound is coming from the center speaker which is not being driven, when a singer's voice is heard or a saxophonist is performing at the center of a stage.

It's a full sound stage, there is absolutely no hole between the left and the right speakers. That phenomenon is the result of the Airborne tweeters having a rather linear frequency response and a wide horizontal polar response.
 
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E

<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
I've experienced such a thing. It was an interesting exercise in technical detective work (at least for one educated in the lowly biological sciences) to whittle out what was going on, but in a nutshell, it was a flawed amp that was adding it's own peculiar subtle reverb effect. I'll admit that the added 'wetness' was a boon to some recordings, but it was not part of the original recording but rather the result of post-processing via flawed amplification.
The amp I speak of is the one in my avatar. I can assure you that it is not defective as it had just been completely restored and was confirmed on the bench to be performing as intended by the engineers that designed it. On sheer specs alone, it is an engineering tour-de-force. That can be proven without a doubt. That point is not debatable.

As for how it sounds, it has captivated me- but that's my personal opinion. We can debate that until the cows come home.

What you fail to understand is that sound stage and imaging are a product of recording and production. If an amplifier does anything other than amplify, it's entered the realm of processor. You also fail to acknowledge the inherent weakness of sighted evaluations, regardless of how long they are. You frankly seem a bit naive on how all of this actually works, but strongly convinced of things that only appear in whimsical marketing material.
Why do you assume I fail to understand anything? Just as some speakers are bottlenecks and impede the reproduction of what is recorded to truly come out, so do some amplifiers. Do you consider a high quality speaker to be a processor if it can image beautifully when compared to a run of the mill speaker? Do you guys actually think that anyone that is not using a $500 AVR is gullible?

Oh, and this isn't groupthink. Think of the Audioholics ethos more as evidence based practice, and refusal to give false equivalency to unsubstantiated whimsy. It can be a bitter pill for those steeped in marketing lore, but realize that it's an approach that respects the music, and your wallet.
I never mentioned groupthink.

As far as marketing whimsy, I don't buy into that. I don't buy into cable BS but I also don't agree with the claim that all amps sound the same. If I did I would have been biased against the amp I'm talking about because it is from a so-called mid-fi manufacturer and was built in 1980! Surely if I were as gullible as you presume I would have been biased against it and believed that the amp that it replaced or other "higher-end" modern amps would easily outperform it. That was not the case.

If anything, I'm quite the opposite of how some are painting me - just because I don't believe that all amps sound the same.

So, no I'm not naive. I just fall somewhere in the middle. I get it from both ends- the science guys and the sound guys. I even have to deal with skeptical retailers that wonder why I'm not running my speakers with something of a "higher caliber". One dealer (without listening to it) said I was running my speakers with a "Chevy" yet my tech called it a "Ferrari" once he got it on his bench- which one is right? I've auditioned so much gear that it's ridiculous. I don't even bother to try to justify why I've settled on this old amp anymore.

I did have one retailer stop by for a listen once. He carries my speakers and had them set up with the TOTL Classe separates. He was expecting me to be floored when I heard it since he knew I was using an old amp. It sounded fantastic but when he saw that I didn't fall off of my chair when I heard what he felt the speakers were capable of he was intrigued. So he stopped by for a listen. After we played some songs he was familiar with I asked him what he thought. This is what he said-


If anything, I'm quite the opposite of how I'm being construed, so no need for anyone to ridicule me - just because I don't believe that all amps sound the same.
 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Oh, and this isn't groupthink. Think of the Audioholics ethos more as evidence based practice, and refusal to give false equivalency to unsubstantiated whimsy. It can be a bitter pill for those steeped in marketing lore, but realize that it's an approach that respects the music, and your wallet.
ski2xblack
You get a creative award for actually using the english language beyond the 5th grade level. Any paragraph that includes ethos (one of my favorite concepts), false equivalency (another favorite) and then finishes it off with unsubstantiated whimsy (I shall have to remember that one) should get some sort of award. A stinkin emoji is all I got to give, but its yours.

The OP is conceding nothing. The additional comments are bouncing off the doors of a closed mind.
Time to move on..............
 
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