Power Ratings in Modern AVR's

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm sorry I forgot to address the issue of checking the DC resistance of the drivers.

You will need to disconnect the drivers. Then just measure the resistance across the terminals. For those speakers it should be around 6 ohms, I would say certainly not less than 6 ohms. Both tweeters and both woofers should measure the same. If not there is damage.

On going back I took a closer and not a cursory look at the impedance plot.



I see a couple of things that are concerning. Those speakers are ported, Correct? If that is correct then they are not even competently designed. There is only one peak of impedance in the bass tuning range. There should be saddle shaped humps, with the nadir at box tuning Vb. That box is tuned to give a one note thump at around 90 Hz, which correlates with the FR. That issue alone would mean that would be a speaker I would never want to listen to for long.

The lesser issue, is that the crossover is right at 1.5 K Hz. You can tell that from the impedance peak. This is very low for small dome tweeter, and calculated to set it up for thermal damage. Unless there are steep electrical slopes, which I doubt, then the tweeter is going to be driven well into Fs, which makes for a rough sounding speaker.

That is the trouble with speakers for every good one I reckon there are a hundred or more dreadful ones.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
This thread has truly been educational and very informative. I will walk back into Best Buy with a lot more direct technical questions based on what I've learned here so the Magnolia guy better be prepared :D
Good luck with that!:D

I agree with what you said: if it is the AVR, it is a defect unique to yours, as plenty of these are "in the field" and we have not seen a rash of complaints.
That said, once the suspicion is raised, I can fully understand not wanting to try Marantz again (fool me once, shame on you...).
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The BestBuy smart alec who says that Marantz receivers have an exaggerated bright sound doesn't know what he is talking about!
Marantz receivers and amplifiers are reputed to have a neutral sound.
I thought you know better than to even consider the 1 in a million chance (anything is possible) that the BB guy might be right.:D:D Your new Yamaha may solve your problem but if it does, it just proves you have a defective Marantz unit. As Verdinut said before, if the Yamaha fixes it for you, so will a $200 cheaper brand new Marantz that is not defective. I still think you should go for the Yamaha because overall it is a step up, likely more reliable and live longer.

As TLS Guy pointed out, this thread is very long. That means people keep forgetting what was said before, so let me remind everyone for the nth time (sorry I am exaggerating) that no matter how lack of current capability M Code cited about modern AVRs, that is not the root cause here because you are getting the audible distortions even at spl as low as 65-70 dB at only 9 ft in a small room. M Code may even agree with me if he has read every post like I have, and remember all the information you have presented so far. Actually he only has to read post#208.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm sorry I forgot to address the issue of checking the DC resistance of the drivers.

You will need to disconnect the drivers. Then just measure the resistance across the terminals. For those speakers it should be around 6 ohms, I would say certainly not less than 6 ohms. Both tweeters and both woofers should measure the same. If not there is damage.

On going back I took a closer and not a cursory look at the impedance plot.



I see a couple of things that are concerning. Those speakers are ported, Correct? If that is correct then they are not even competently designed. There is only one peak of impedance in the bass tuning range. There should be saddle shaped humps, with the nadir at box tuning Vb. That box is tuned to give a one note thump at around 90 Hz, which correlates with the FR. That issue alone would mean that would be a speaker I would never want to listen to for long.

The lesser issue, is that the crossover is right at 1.5 K Hz. You can tell that from the impedance peak. This is very low for small dome tweeter, and calculated to set it up for thermal damage. Unless there are steep electrical slopes, which I doubt, then the tweeter is going to be driven well into Fs, which makes for a rough sounding speaker.

That is the trouble with speakers for every good one I reckon there are a hundred or more dreadful ones.
If I remember right, the reviewer said they are sealed. Also the graph is for the SBS-01 that has one 5.25" mid range/woofer. Halon uses them for surround duty. For the mains L/R he has the SCS-01(M) that are basically vertical version of the SCS-01 (center speaker). They have 2X 5.25" mid range/woofer and a much larger enclosure. One of the two reviewers (S&V if I remember right) said the larger SCS-01(M) has higher impedance but no graphs provided.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Found a full(er) S&V review on the SBS-01 5.1 system, interestingly paired with the older and more impressive Pioneer AVR, not the Elite, but quite a powerful one for $499.99.

In this review, S&V rated the SBS-01 8 ohm nominal.

Speaker: SBS-01
Type: Two-way, monitor
Tweeter (size in inches, type): 1, silk dome
Woofer (size in inches, type): 5.25, polypropylene cone (1)
Nominal Impedance (ohms): 8
Recommended Amp Power (watts): 20–120
Available Finishes: Black, White, Silver
Dimensions (H x W x D, inches): 12 x 7 x 9.5
Weight (pounds): 11
Price: $225/pair

Speaker: SCS-01
Type: Two-way, center
Tweeter (size in inches, type): 1, silk dome
Woofer (size in inches, type): 5.25, polypropylene cone (2)
Nominal Impedance (ohms): 8
Recommended Amp Power (watts): 20–120
Available Finishes: Black, White, Silver
Dimensions (H x W x D, inches): 7 x 20 x 8.5
Weight (pounds): 19
Price: $185

HT Labs Measures: SVS SBS-01 Speaker System

image: http://www.soundandvision.com/images/archivesart/108SVS.3.jpg




• Satellite Sensitivity: 84 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz

• Center Sensitivity: 88 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz

This graph shows the quasi-anechoic (employing close-miking of all woofers) frequency response of the SBS-01 satellite (purple trace), PB10-NSD subwoofer (blue trace), and SCS-01 center channel (green trace). All passive loudspeakers were measured with grilles at a distance of 1 meter with a 2.83-volt input and scaled for display purposes.

The SBS-01's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.82/–2.98 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 84 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 68 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 7.48 ohms at 166 Hz and a phase angle of –49.67 degrees at 91 Hz.

The SCS-01's listening-window response measures +2.75/–2.78 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.88/–2.57 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 101 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 80 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 9.00 ohms at 174 Hz and a phase angle of –50.22 degrees at 98 Hz.

The PB10-NSD's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower –3-dB point is at 39 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 30 Hz. The upper –3-dB point is at 138 Hz using the only input.-MJP

Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/svs-sbs-01-speaker-system-and-pioneer-vsx-1017txv-k-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures-svs#eU3b42ocPGBvEaEw.99
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
IThose speakers are ported, Correct?
No, these are sealed enclosures all the way around.

The lesser issue, is that the crossover is right at 1.5 K Hz. You can tell that from the impedance peak. This is very low for small dome tweeter, and calculated to set it up for thermal damage. Unless there are steep electrical slopes, which I doubt, then the tweeter is going to be driven well into Fs, which makes for a rough sounding speaker.

That is the trouble with speakers for every good one I reckon there are a hundred or more dreadful ones.
That may very well be a valid point, but the fact is I have listened to these exact speakers for years now without any kind of harsh, distorted or even off-color sound. TLS Guy, I'm not speaker engineer like yourself, I don't have the breadth of knowledge you possess on the subject and in many ways I default to that knowledge when it is conclusive. All I have are my ears and some limited knowledge of how speakers work. And you keep trying to convince me that my speakers sound bad when I can tell you that my ears have told me otherwise for the past 9 years. You're looking at graphs, and I'm going by what they actually have sounded like. These data points may indicate the inherent limitations of these speakers, which I very readily admit - are limited in many ways. These are not $10,000 speakers. But I did not have $10,000 any more then than I do now.

Incidentally, I asked if you could please provide the source for your initial FR plot that we discussed regarding the "octave smoothing" and how it differed from Kurt's graph. I never saw that source come from you, but I ended up finding it in my own research, and those measurements were conducted in-room with an added room response and no corrections applied vs. an anechoic test. Of course they're going to show some pretty significant peaks and valleys. In fact the way they describe their room is similar to my own layout in almost every way. I'm just a tad closer though.

Allow me to quote: "In-room frequency response measurements were taken using John Mulcahy’s excellent Room Equalizer Wizard program with a calibrated Behringer ECM8000 mic. I also had an AudioControl R-130 1/3-octave real time analyzer on hand to monitor various aspects of the speakers’ performance. The primary measuring location was our large family room, which is open to other areas like the dining room, kitchen and upstairs landing. While the listening position is only about 10 ft. away, the total volume is a cavernous 9200 cu. ft."

They went on to say that they never did complete a similar evaluation on the SCS-01 which represent my three front speakers. The SBS-01's are only my surrounds. But that they indicate similar FR. Fair enough.

Point is, (and bracketing out the AVR) if anything, I have a room problem, not a speaker problem. But I've known this for years too. It's why I struggle with calibrating my system. But once I have it dialed in finally it tends to be on the money and has never failed to deliver. Of course, this is pre-Marantz.

Far many more subjective reviews from pro-sites and many other end-users indicate that these are in fact very well performing speakers especially for the price. I trust my own ears that they haven't lied to me the past 9 years over any type of graph or other review out there.

The only thing that could point to my speakers being the problem here is that they did in fact wear out. But I no sooner would expect all four tires on my truck to go flat at the same exact time than I would all five speakers to exhibit the same identical characteristics of choked sound and distortion literally in a day or less.

I get it. You don't like SVS. Just admit it and we can all move on. :D
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Maybe he was? Maybe I don't quite understand how the AVR couldn't possibly be doing exactly what he describes? If it's beefing up higher frequencies to boost fidelity in that range and my speakers aren't quite as agile in that range, would it not result in a bit of an overdriven sound? I know that certain AVR's tend to have their own "tonal signature" to some extent and none that I know of have accomplished the act of pure, uncolored gain on a signal being sent to speakers. Why doesn't it make sense?
The reason to me, that it doesn't make sense is that higher end electronics are known for neutrality. NOT having colorations. Being made to work better with higher end speakers? That's just ignorant. Everything I've ever read on modern marantz has been glowing, and in my direct experience with them, what he told you is just wrong. IF any boosting occurred I would blame it on audyssey compensating for a dead room of large dimensions. In your small area with what looks like wood floors and drywall, I would expect audyssey to back the highs down. This is where REW is important.(sorry, another turn in the rabbit hole). In any case, I have my fingers crossed for you, and that new Yamaha.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
IF any boosting occurred I would blame it on audyssey compensating for a dead room of large dimensions. In your small area with what looks like wood floors and drywall, I would expect audyssey to back the highs down.
I have indeed had many struggles trying to get Audyssey to get it right. It tends to lean very heavily on the HF side despite my room configuration and reflections, so much so that I've taken to removing my grills when running it so that it smooths out the treble range a bit more (I'm not sure how much HF attenuation those grills actually do, but I read where one user did this and it worked for him - again, desperation is the mother of all silly ideas). It still sounds a bit bright in my room, especially vocals, but doing it that way, using one mic position only and running Cinema EQ has helped tamp it down a bit. Maybe it's still not enough.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
No, these are sealed enclosures all the way around.



That may very well be a valid point, but the fact is I have listened to these exact speakers for years now without any kind of harsh, distorted or even off-color sound. TLS Guy, I'm not speaker engineer like yourself, I don't have the breadth of knowledge you possess on the subject and in many ways I default to that knowledge when it is conclusive. All I have are my ears and some limited knowledge of how speakers work. And you keep trying to convince me that my speakers sound bad when I can tell you that my ears have told me otherwise for the past 9 years. You're looking at graphs, and I'm going by what they actually have sounded like. These data points may indicate the inherent limitations of these speakers, which I very readily admit - are limited in many ways. These are not $10,000 speakers. But I did not have $10,000 any more then than I do now.

Incidentally, I asked if you could please provide the source for your initial FR plot that we discussed regarding the "octave smoothing" and how it differed from Kurt's graph. I never saw that source come from you, but I ended up finding it in my own research, and those measurements were conducted in-room with an added room response and no corrections applied vs. an anechoic test. Of course they're going to show some pretty significant peaks and valleys. In fact the way they describe their room is similar to my own layout in almost every way. I'm just a tad closer though.

Allow me to quote: "In-room frequency response measurements were taken using John Mulcahy’s excellent Room Equalizer Wizard program with a calibrated Behringer ECM8000 mic. I also had an AudioControl R-130 1/3-octave real time analyzer on hand to monitor various aspects of the speakers’ performance. The primary measuring location was our large family room, which is open to other areas like the dining room, kitchen and upstairs landing. While the listening position is only about 10 ft. away, the total volume is a cavernous 9200 cu. ft."

They went on to say that they never did complete a similar evaluation on the SCS-01 which represent my three front speakers. The SBS-01's are only my surrounds. But that they indicate similar FR. Fair enough.

Point is, (and bracketing out the AVR) if anything, I have a room problem, not a speaker problem. But I've known this for years too. It's why I struggle with calibrating my system. But once I have it dialed in finally it tends to be on the money and has never failed to deliver. Of course, this is pre-Marantz.

Far many more subjective reviews from pro-sites and many other end-users indicate that these are in fact very well performing speakers especially for the price. I trust my own ears that they haven't lied to me the past 9 years over any type of graph or other review out there.

The only thing that could point to my speakers being the problem here is that they did in fact wear out. But I no sooner would expect all four tires on my truck to go flat at the same exact time than I would all five speakers to exhibit the same identical characteristics of choked sound and distortion literally in a day or less.

I get it. You don't like SVS. Just admit it and we can all move on. :D
I have nothing against SVS, and don't know their speakers.

I'm sorry I forgot your request to link that graph. However this thread is long enough to make the head spin.

This is where i got the graph.



That graph correlates very well with the impedance data. That solitary bass region tuning peak is spot on for that 70 to 100 Hz peak. There is also a null in the crossover region. So there is a phase issue.

I have absolutely nothing against SVS per se. I have everything against the fact we are awash in dreadful incompetently designed speakers at all price points.

Here we are over a century on from Thiel/Small's landmark work and speakers are churned out not even following the basic principles of design.

Dr Floyd Toole addressed this very issue in these forums in the recent past. I could not agree more. And by the way it cost no more to produce a competently designed speaker as a competently designed one.

In my experience it is not uncommon for people to happy with poor speakers for a period of time then to be suddenly aware of their shortcomings. Why this happens I have no idea.

I do know though that there is enough data to know that those speakers are not good. I have done this long enough to know what a speaker will do near enough without listening to it.

That is why I build my own and have done for over 60 years now. I don't want somebody else's rubbish.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I have nothing against SVS, and don't know their speakers.

I'm sorry I forgot your request to link that graph. However this thread is long enough to make the head spin.

This is where i got the graph.



That graph correlates very well with the impedance data. That solitary bass region tuning peak is spot on for that 70 to 100 Hz peak. There is also a null in the crossover region. So there is a phase issue.

I have absolutely nothing against SVS per se. I have everything against the fact we are awash in dreadful incompetently designed speakers at all price points.

Here we are over a century on from Thiel/Small's landmark work and speakers are churned out not even following the basic principles of design.

Dr Floyd Toole addressed this very issue in these forums in the recent past. I could not agree more. And by the way it cost no more to produce a competently designed speaker as a competently designed one.

In my experience it is not uncommon for people to happy with poor speakers for a period of time then to be suddenly aware of their shortcomings. Why this happens I have no idea.

I do know though that there is enough data to know that those speakers are not good. I have done this long enough to know what a speaker will do near enough without listening to it.

That is why I build my own and have done for over 60 years now. I don't want somebody else's rubbish.
That's exactly the link I found - which was performed in-room which was very voluminous as they point out (see my above excerpt). I agree with you in principle, there are many very bad speakers out there these days, hell I've owned some of them. I do not consider the SVS line among those. We can agree to disagree on this. If I were the strict music listening audiophile type, I probably wouldn't opt for the SVS line; to me they seem like they are more or less designed for HT use, and are marginally good for music. Definitely not equipped to handle dynamic music tracks without the assist of a good sub, but then again I haven't heard their tower speakers which might be much more up to that task. So as such they may be able to get away with some limitations over their more strict high-end 2 channel counterparts who are set up for high-fidelity music listening. Those limitations will prove negligible in the context of HT surround sound with proper placement and adequate room corrections. I've listened to a lot of the big names out there for HT.. I've never once felt remorse for having gone with the SVS.
I commend you for building your own line and standing behind it. I haven't had the luxury of listening to them but I am sure they are wonderful. Where could I review your makes and prices?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That's exactly the link I found - which was performed in-room which was very voluminous as they point out (see my above excerpt). I agree with you in principle, there are many very bad speakers out there these days, hell I've owned some of them. I do not consider the SVS line among those. We can agree to disagree on this. If I were the strict music listening audiophile type, I probably wouldn't opt for the SVS line; to me they seem like they are more or less designed for HT use, and are marginally good for music. Definitely not equipped to handle dynamic music tracks without the assist of a good sub, but then again I haven't heard their tower speakers which might be much more up to that task. So as such they may be able to get away with some limitations over their more strict high-end 2 channel counterparts who are set up for high-fidelity music listening. Those limitations will prove negligible in the context of HT surround sound with proper placement and adequate room corrections. I've listened to a lot of the big names out there for HT.. I've never once felt remorse for having gone with the SVS.
I commend you for building your own line and standing behind it. I haven't had the luxury of listening to them but I am sure they are wonderful. Where could I review your makes and prices?
In conclusion, I can only say that if the bass tuning was correct and they did not have a phasing problem at crossover they would sound better on anything that was played though them.

I only sold speakers once.

These speakers won the national audiophile sound off.



I arranged production of them and sent them out to dealers. Before the next production run, the manufacturer had stopped production of the woofers. After that I lost interest and continued to just design and make speakers for myself family and a few close friends. I think that is the way it will stay.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Beautiful cabinet TLS Guy. It's probably better that you keep it more as an enjoyable hobby instead of having to deal with production demands, customer service, etc.

Appreciate the great discussion and informative posts. My head is spinning too, so I'm going to take a break from this thread and tweaking my system and go give my girlfriend some attention. She deserves it after my obsessive fiddling with my HT lately.

Once I get that Yamaha I will post my honest impressions. I certainly won't take my speakers out of the suspect line just yet. If it still sounds bad then I guess we'll have our answer. :)

Cheers,

Rob
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I thought you know better than to even consider the 1 in a million chance (anything is possible) that the BB guy might be right.:D:D Your new Yamaha may solve your problem but if it does, it just proves you have a defective Marantz unit. As Verdinut said before, if the Yamaha fixes it for you, so will a $200 cheaper brand new Marantz that is not defective. I still think you should go for the Yamaha because overall it is a step up, likely more reliable and live longer.

As TLS Guy pointed out, this thread is very long. That means people keep forgetting what was said before, so let me remind everyone for the nth time (sorry I am exaggerating) that no matter how lack of current capability M Code cited about modern AVRs, that is not the root cause here because you are getting the audible distortions even at spl as low as 65-70 dB at only 9 ft in a small room. M Code may even agree with me if he has read every post like I have, and remember all the information you have presented so far. Actually he only has to read post#208.
IMHO..
It is pertinent to mention that power output is not the only culprit that can destroy a loudspeaker...
Distortion is the biggest enemy that can damage loudspeakers...
Case in point..
Since we have been doing CEDIA installs and system fixs for many years, when using various streaming sources with compressed audio it is EZ to introduce alot of distortion. Last month we got a call from a customer who we had done a significant HT install for a complete Sony Bravia system including sound bar. He was a very good client as we also did a full-house wifi dsitribution system and an outdoor AV install with a 50" HD screen by his pool. The buyer is the CEO of a major SoCal clothing brand for snowboarding, skateboarding apparel that is highly touted and popular with the youth. The buyer complained that the Sony Bravia system had developed a very audible distorted sound...

Next we returned to the client's house ran some tests and found that some of the drivers in the soundbar were blown.. Further testing revealed that the client's son had been playing various tunes from his iPhone through the system via AirPlay. AirPlay works well but in examining more closely some of the tracks on the iPhone we found many tracks were encoded @ 128K, the son had used 128K as to save memory space to fit more tunes in. Unfortunately when playing back low-bit-rate compressed music tracks the amount of distortion increases big-time. We contacted our Sony distributor and was able to get the soundbar replaced under warranty.

Bottom line..
Besides high power, playing low-bit-rate compressed tracks can be very demanding and damaging on loudspeakers since the distortion is quite high. So if one is listening to a streaming source be sure to use the highest available bit-rate while keeping the volume levels reasonable...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Well as I'm packing the Marantz back up to go exhange it today I finally realized what the problem was: I opened it from the bottom not the top. Stupid rookie mistake, won't happen again. :D

IMG_0669.JPG
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
For those that were following this thread, I got the new Yamaha in today and got it hooked up. Holy dynamics batman! Even straight out of the box, before running YPAO, I could tell the sound was remarkably improved and distortion free. The dynamics came back and everything was clear, powerful and enveloping. So my thinking is that it wasn't the speakers after all. I've got to spend a bit more time learning the various modes and settings, and running YPAO was a very quick process compared to Audyssey or even MCACC. But I've run it once so far and it seemed to do alright. I think I can improve on it a bit more. Once I've had more time with it I'll post a more thorough review.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Anyone that owns a Yamaha and would like to throw me some tips I surely wouldn't mind. :)
 
D

Dutchie

Audiophyte
I do hope it is not too late for this thread, because it's May already. My burning question is, which model did you purchased from Yamaha? I'm also very curious if you ever have tried to change your settings with your Marantz SR6011 manually from 4 or 6 to 8 Ohm? ? ? How where the default (Ohm) settings from your Marantz?
Respectfully, Mr. Dutchie
 
D

Dutchie

Audiophyte
I do hope it is not too late for this thread, because it's May already. My burning question is, which model did you purchased from Yamaha? I'm also very curious if you ever have tried to change your settings with your Marantz SR6011 manually from 4 or 6 to 8 Ohm? ? ? How where the default (Ohm) settings from your Marantz?
Respectfully, Mr. Dutchie
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I do hope it is not too late for this thread, because it's May already. My burning question is, which model did you purchased from Yamaha? I'm also very curious if you ever have tried to change your settings with your Marantz SR6011 manually from 4 or 6 to 8 Ohm? ? ? How where the default (Ohm) settings from your Marantz?
Respectfully, Mr. Dutchie
The default settings on Marantz currently made AVRs is the 8 ohm impedance.
 

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