Complete newbie and confused - need coaching on AVR + stereo receiver + integrated

A

artemasad

Enthusiast
First of all, hello!

I am very new at this whole thing and starting on the audio-journey. I have learned quite a lot in the past two weeks about speakers. But now, when it comes to what it takes to drive the speakers I've purchased, I am very lost.

If possible, if any of you have time, I'd like to discuss this over Skype. I have tons of questions, and perhaps back and forth on Skype would be a better medium than wait and reply. My Skype is Ces.Stormrage.


So, I am finishing my basement. I am looking to fill a medium-size room with music, mainly from 256 kbps+ mp3 source, either via phone or PC. I can only hook PC to receiver/amp via HDMI or CAT6. Optical/Coax is unfortunately out of the option.



Speakers I've purchased was: GoldenEar Triton Three+

So my AVR/amp journey started out like this....
  • Planned to get Yamaha RX-V481BL (AVR, $400) as I believe it can drive the Triton Three+, as it advertised 80 W @ 8 ohm with 0.09% THD. Plus it has WiFi, USB connection (thumb drive), or even Bluetooth

  • Was advised that Yamaha's advertised power output is overly exaggerated. And I might damage Triton Three+... something about how it can dip to 4 ohm and Yamaha would struggle to drive this. And was advised to look at Yamaha R-N402 (stereo receiver, $450) as I do not need surround sound capability.

  • Was advised that AVR/stereo receiver will not do my Triton Three+ justice. Analogy used was driving on an Acura using a Honda engine.

  • Found out that I might be an idiot trying to listen to music on a $2500 speakers, on a $400 AVR with basic DAC, using a compressed mp3 format, via Bluetooth

  • Learned that not all DAC are created equal. Phone's DAC will not convert mp3 the way more expensive integrated amp's DAC would

  • Learned that there's such thing as AptX codec for Bluetooth, so I won't gimp the music quality as much. Also learned about the different purity of sending song from the source. Something like optical > Bluetooth AptX > WiFi > Bluetooth. I'm still confused on this.

  • Was suggested something like NAD C 368 (integrated, $899). 80 W @ 8 ohms with 0.009% THD, or even 80 W @ 4 ohms with 0.009% THD. Also have aptX for Bluetooth. Similarly, also was suggested Cambridge Audio CAX60 (integrated, $799) plus BT100 (Bluetooth adapter for aptX)

  • Learned about asynchronous USB B, which might even be a better option. If I understand correctly, if I can get a asynchronous USB B working and load songs directly from USB flash drive to amp, it will sound as good as connecting via optical cable

  • Found out there's Cambridge Audio CAX80 (integrated, $999). Still no Bluetooth unless I purchase adapter, but does have asynchronous USB B

  • Also was suggested NAD C 338 (integrated, $649). Only 50W @ 8 ohms, 0.01% THD, but has WiFi capability and Bluetooth aptX. Also something about Blue Sound Powernode (Streaming Integrated Amp)


Once again, when it comes to AVR/receiver/amp, I've literally just learned all these in 36 hours. I'm completely overwhelmed. And to add, my "original budget" was $400 for the receiver/amp. Even if I can get the discounted price amp like CAX80, I'll still be looking at $850 after tax. I can do it, but it just means no TV and recliner basement for a long while.


If someone can please coach/guide me through this, I would very much appreciate it. Heck, I'll even PayPal you beer money. At this point, with the budget and knowledge constraints, I'm pretty overwhelmed and lost on what to do.


Thank you ahead of time!
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Your biggest issue is your source material. Depending on what your music taste is you should consider a loosy format like flac or ogg. Your not doing the speakers justice. A Denon x3200 would be a viable option and you get the features you like as well as a room correction suite that is nice if you have some minor room issues and bass management if subs are added.
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Your biggest issue is your source material. Depending on what your music taste is you should consider a loosy format like flac or ogg. Your not doing the speakers justice. A Denon x3200 would be a viable option and you get the features you like as well as a room correction suite that is nice if you have some minor room issues and bass management if subs are added.
Thank you for your reply. And you'd be right on the format. I understand that source material, mp3, is the weakest link. Unfortunately, my music taste is a bit.... different. I am into Japanese Ballad songs, and the only things readily available are in mp3 format. I would love to do some Hi-Res music also, but that's not as much of a priority.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Interesting. Sounds like a fun process to find at least cd quality for that genre . You don't necessarily need high resolution, you just need cd quality source material that is of a quality mix from the engineering crew. How large is your room and how far from the speakers will you be positioned.



Thank you for your reply. And you'd be right on the format. I understand that source material, mp3, is the weakest link. Unfortunately, my music taste is a bit.... different. I am into Japanese Ballad songs, and the only things readily available are in mp3 format. I would love to do some Hi-Res music also, but that's not as much of a priority.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't skype but my .02:

Integrated 2ch amps are generally more expensive than an equivalent avr as they're made in much smaller numbers...economies of scale. Nothing wrong with an avr's amp section as long as it meets your spl and impedance needs. Your speakers are 90dB sensitive and rated as 8ohm compatible so doubt you'll have much issue with an avr's amp (plus you have the built in "subs" with their own amp to further take the load off the rest of the speaker). 2ch integrated amps generally don't provide any bass management for use of a separate subwoofer (which you may or may not want, you don't say), or hdmi connections or networking capabilities. In 2ch use an avr's power supply should be fine, many do complain that when all channels are driven equally (which isn't a normal circumstance) that the 2ch driven ratings change. Not a big deal.

Buying boutique stuff like external DACs wouldn't be necessary with an avr, and most avrs have good networking capabilities where you can use something better than bluetooth (like streaming via airplay or dlna). Most DACs are quite competent in today's audio gear....phones not always (but they're phones...).

NAD is okay as long as you don't mind paying more and getting less features than other major manufacturers; that they have some inherent superior sound quality is often touted but something that isn't borne out by many user comments I've read, YMMV. NAD and other boutique gear is more expensive as they don't have the sales/distribution the major brands have...still made in the same general factories in China.

I use avrs in my setups that I use the most, as I do like the ability to use subwoofers with bass management as well as the networking and surround sound capabilities. I'd want real subs with your speakers, but you may be happy with their built-in "subs" despite lack of ability to place the subs separately from the speakers, which is generally ideal; I also like mine to dig deeper than the Tritons can for a wide variety of material but YMMV. My 2ch gear is in the spare bedrooms for occasional use.

Acuras do use Honda engines, everything Acura has is Honda since that's the parent company :)
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
About that also... the basement is not in exactly a square shape. It's in L-shape. Let's just say that at this point, I am forced to put speakers in the not-so-optimal location, and listening location will not be static. The conventional "listening room" with good speakers positioning pointing to the recliner/chair is not an option for me.... Unfortunately I had given up on that.

About audio quality though, $400 AVR vs. $1000 integrated, what's your opinion on that?
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
I don't skype but my .02:

Integrated 2ch amps are generally more expensive than an equivalent avr as they're made in much smaller numbers...economies of scale. Nothing wrong with an avr's amp section as long as it meets your spl and impedance needs. Your speakers are 90dB sensitive and rated as 8ohm compatible so doubt you'll have much issue with an avr's amp (plus you have the built in "subs" with their own amp to further take the load off the rest of the speaker). 2ch integrated amps generally don't provide any bass management for use of a separate subwoofer (which you may or may not want, you don't say), or hdmi connections or networking capabilities. In 2ch use an avr's power supply should be fine, many do complain that when all channels are driven equally (which isn't a normal circumstance) that the 2ch driven ratings change. Not a big deal.

Buying boutique stuff like external DACs wouldn't be necessary with an avr, and most avrs have good networking capabilities where you can use something better than bluetooth (like streaming via airplay or dlna). Most DACs are quite competent in today's audio gear....phones not always (but they're phones...).

NAD is okay as long as you don't mind paying more and getting less features than other major manufacturers; that they have some inherent superior sound quality is often touted but something that isn't borne out by many user comments I've read, YMMV. NAD and other boutique gear is more expensive as they don't have the sales/distribution the major brands have...still made in the same general factories in China.

I use avrs in my setups that I use the most, as I do like the ability to use subwoofers with bass management as well as the networking and surround sound capabilities. I'd want real subs with your speakers, but you may be happy with their built-in "subs" despite lack of ability to place the subs separately from the speakers, which is generally ideal; I also like mine to dig deeper than the Tritons can for a wide variety of material but YMMV. My 2ch gear is in the spare bedrooms for occasional use.

Acuras do use Honda engines, everything Acura has is Honda since that's the parent company :)
About the Honda thing... welp, so much for that analogy I guess?

I will eventually add a separate subwoofer, but that won't be in near future. I've just used up all my budget and more. The built-in subs will probably suffice for now. And with the type of music I listen to, I do not need a lot of bass.

For DAC, are you saying that streaming music from my computer via WiFi and let an $400 AVR's built-in DAC to take care of the decoding will sound as good as hooking optical out from PC to amp and let the $1000 amp do the work?

Option-wise, things like Yamaha RX-V481BL will suffice for me in terms of functionality if I can do it through WiFi. It seems like they have the "normal version" of USB and Bluetooth though, as opposed to asynchronous USB B and Bluetooth w/aptX codec, respectively. If the other guys are right, it means that when I stream the music via regular Bluetooth, the further compression would degrade the quality of the song even more. And without asynchronous USB B, there will be timing errors and cause degradation of audio quality also...

If anything, the part I'm struggling the most is: one group of people is telling me $400 AVR is crap and will not sound as good as $1000 integrated amp. While here, it sounds like $400 AVR is capable to make my mp3 source sound as good as $1000 integrated amp. Again, I'm on my Day #2 on this, and having two conflicting views from two sources of experts is killing a complete clueless idiot like me.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The 2ch crowd has a lot of things they swear by that don't make a lot of sense these days, I've gone from that 2ch world to that of the avr and don't even think about it much except on the forums. Some people get a bit crazy about amps but having had quite a few different ones, it doesn't make much difference if they're of good quality (and IMO most these days are). If you have high spl needs, or low impedance speakers, or large distances between you and the speakers then perhaps a more powerful amp would make sense

I've not had the need for an external dac, the ones in my avrs work fine (I currently use a Denon, an Onkyo and a Sony in various rooms). If you had all old analog gear and wanted to insert something digital, perhaps it would make sense (and probably the root of the recommendations). I still have a turntable and many lp's, too, but that's much more about what LPs I already have vs what I have on cd or other digital formats, not sound qualities inherent to vinyl which many 2ch fans also swear by. I don't buy new LPs and haven't for years.

I've always avoided bluetooth altho I understand the aptX thing has higher fidelity than past bluetooth implementations. I stream over my network, mostly CDs on drives in FLAC format, so no need for bluetooth in any case. Digital jitter is way overstated, I wouldn't worry about it (and don't).

I don't think much about integrated amps, I have old 2ch separates, never bothered with an integrated amp. NAD nor Cambridge Audio appeal to me based on cost and they don't appear to be of particularly high quality from what I've read.

Just what other forums are you getting audio opinions on?
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Just what other forums are you getting audio opinions on?
I'll send you the link via "conversation" and let you analyze the whole thing on your term. I don't want to publicly post link because I'm not sure if it's against the rules, much less causing conflicts between two forums that has been helping me out greatly.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
I don't think this is overly complicated, AVRs give you the ability to DSD over hdmi If you have a desire to have that option as a source, their dacs are more than sufficient, better eq options if needed,and flexibility. So your concerns should be speakers and source material. Amplification and dacs should be your least concern.

As an added note, if your placement is less than optional, an avr will be easier to setup than an integrated amp.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Found out that I might be an idiot trying to listen to music on a $2500 speakers, on a $400 AVR with basic DAC, using a compressed mp3 format, via Bluetooth
The only validity in that statement is the "compressed mp3 format" part. Most every audiophile, whose budget allows, has speakers costing MUCH more than their electronics. I would say the $400/$2500 ratio is quite reasonable. In fact, it reflects a wisdom usually taking many years and lots of money for people to develop.
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Thank you. There's definitely a big shift in opinion on the importance of the electronics between this forum and other group for sure. One is genuinely confused on why on earth I'd choose a pathetic puny $400 AVR to power a $2500 speakers. Another is firm that $400 AVR is more than enough and will drive the speakers as good without any noticeable differences in sound quality.

Any of these brands below sell a good AVR/amp (at least with DNLA-certified WiFi), for stereo plus possibly subwoofer, for reasonable price that you guys would recommend? This is from my local dealer's website that is willing to give a good discount since I've purchased the speakers from them:

  • Acurus
  • Aragon
  • Arcam
  • Ayre Acoustics
  • Balanced Audio Technology
  • Blue Sound
  • Cambridge Audio
  • Control 4
  • Denon
  • Emotiva
  • Gato Audio
  • Magnum Dynalab
  • Marantz
  • McIntosh
  • NAD
  • Naim Audio
  • Peachtree
  • Prima Luna
  • Rega
  • Sonos
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Again Denon, Marantz, Yamaha are your best bang for the buck. The list above while good name brands don't represent value or better performance audibly other than denon.
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Honestly I've heard of Marantz until recently. The dealer appears to be "pushing" me to buy that brand too. Denon definitely looks great - I'll have to research on what models. Unfortunately they don't carry Yamaha that I can get a discount on.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Marantz and Denon are part of the same holding group. The x32/3300 series and up from denon will probably a little less expensive than their Marantz counterparts.
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers

X3300W is $999. Yikes. Back to $650+ range that I have to scavenge pennies on my couch!

Out of all the ones in the list, what features should I be looking for that I might not even know I need/want? I don't plan to hook up more than two speakers and a subwoofer at all - this setup will be purely for music using WiFi. Probably Bluetooth from phone, but once again, no aptX so I think straight WiFi from PC might be a better option.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
The 3200 is $599 on amazon. 4200 is $799 both have all the features you want.
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Oh, phew. MSRP on Denon's website scared the heck out of me.

Again, lastly, since you've mentioned Marantz and seem to trust them. While they sell AVR, they also sell the "Hi-Fi components" such as this. $699, no WiFi, no USB, etc. Is that also just a prestige bait by Marantz.
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
Oh, phew. MSRP on Denon's website scared the heck out of me.

Again, lastly, since you've mentioned Marantz and seem to trust them. While they sell AVR, they also sell the "Hi-Fi components" such as this. $699, no WiFi, no USB, etc. Is that also just a prestige bait by Marantz.
Marantz is old company and they want to keep all their fans satisfied so they need to offer something for every one. I have Marantz AVR myself and I got mine half MSRP so I guess that is pretty nice deal as well. But like said Marantz / Denon / Yamaha are the brands you should look for. Here you can find some great deals as well: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/avreceiver/home-audio/receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html
 
A

artemasad

Enthusiast
Thank you all. I guess I'm down to 5 choices. Please help me decide on this final stretch.

  • Marantz SR5011 (100W @ 8 ohms 2ch) -- $600
  • Marantz NR1607 (50W @ 8 ohms 2ch) -- $490
  • Denon X3300W (105W) -- $650
  • Denon X2300W (95W) -- $450
  • Denon X1300W (80W) -- $360

Looks like Marantz NR1607's 50W is extremely weak? And for Denon, is there a reason for me to drop $300 extra on X3300W as opposed to cheaper X1300W, especially if I'll only be listening to music via WiFi (FLAC, mp3, etc) from my computer?
 
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