Newly retired, want to ressurect my old stereo system, need new cartridge

[Phillips]

It said for beginners, so here goes. Thank you for your consideration.

I have just newly retired and want to return to using my "stereo" system. [That is what I grew up calling it].
I have a Denon AVR 1600 Reciever, and a Phillips 212 Electronic Turntable, going to a Paradigm power sub, and 4 bookshelf type speakers.

I want to play my 10 to 40 year old vinyl records, that are in fair condition. They were played on the Phillips turntable, so they are OK, but certainly not in pristine condition from being played on a $2000 turntable.

I have a Grado cartridge on my turntable, probably a decade old, that never gave me enough volume, it seems to be about half of a CD player volume. I added a TC-750 Professional Moving Magnetic Pre-amp in line between the turntable and the amp, but it did not help a great deal. If I get near any increased volume for my old rocker LPs, I get considerable low hum.

The Denon says the phono input sensitivity is 2.5mV/47 k ohms

Would anyone have new cartridge recommendation that would give me more volume? I do not want to spend a ton on a non-essential item just yet. Is $100 or less even in the realm of a solution to this issue. I have no clue as I have been out of this so long. Many thanks.

 

[afterlife2]

That's a nice TT Phillips. I recommend these. You can try both and return the one you don't like. That's what great about amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Ortofon-2M-Red-Phono-Cartridge/dp/B000WMCEKK
or
https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT120EB-Biradial-Cartridge/dp/B00OQUJ3JY/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1474658358&sr=8-5&keywords=at+cartridge

 

[slipperybidness]

It said for beginners, so here goes. Thank you for your consideration.

I have just newly retired and want to return to using my "stereo" system. [That is what I grew up calling it].
I have a Denon AVR 1600 Reciever, and a Phillips 212 Electronic Turntable, going to a Paradigm power sub, and 4 bookshelf type speakers.

I want to play my 10 to 40 year old vinyl records, that are in fair condition. They were played on the Phillips turntable, so they are OK, but certainly not in pristine condition from being played on a $2000 turntable.

I have a Grado cartridge on my turntable, probably a decade old, that never gave me enough volume, it seems to be about half of a CD player volume. I added a TC-750 Professional Moving Magnetic Pre-amp in line between the turntable and the amp, but it did not help a great deal. If I get near any increased volume for my old rocker LPs, I get considerable low hum.

The Denon says the phono input sensitivity is 2.5mV/47 k ohms

Would anyone have new cartridge recommendation that would give me more volume? I do not want to spend a ton on a non-essential item just yet. Is $100 or less even in the realm of a solution to this issue. I have no clue as I have been out of this so long. Many thanks.

Why 4 speakers on a "stereo" setup? Are you running true Quad Sound? If not, then go to 2 speakers.

And, have you already purchased the sub? You could likely do better for the $.

As far as carts, the Ortofon 2M Red and the Shure M97xe are generally the best "cheap" carts that you can find, need to spend significantly more for an improvement.

And, your old cart--Is it a MM or a MC? What model is it? What's it's output?

 

[Phillips]

Hi Slipperybidness. Thank you. The Denon is surround sound, or regular stereo or several other options. It was proved to be a less than good purchase, I should have just got an amp, never use the receiver.

I generally run surround sound for the 12 x 24' music room / playing with the terrier puppy room. The sub and 4 paradigm speakers are a decade old, maybe even two decades old. Again, probably not a great purchase option, but it is what it is now.

Not sure about the old cartridge, I could not find any numbers on it, and I have long since lost the paperwork that would have given me specifications.

The front of the cartridge seems to have a stylized JG on it with the word GRADO underneath. Probably does not help

When I do go to the new cartridge, do I remove the pre-amp.........or try it both ways, with and without. II guess try it both ways.

Yes, $100 range it is for now, just what the non-essential budget will stand. Maybe $150.

Thanks Afterlife 2 for time to give me a recommendation.

 

[cpd]

I have the 2m red. It is a good cartridge for the money.

What inputs are you using on the Denon when you don't have the pre-amp hooked up and not hooked up?

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think your problem is the cartridge. The initials JG indicate this is a later model prestige cartridge made after John Grado took the helm. Grado make good cartridges and yours is likely better than the cartridges mentioned here. Output of the Prestige Grado is 5 mv, and the sensitivity of your receiver 2.5 mv. So this cartridge should have plenty of output to drive your receiver.

Your problem seems to be a signal to noise problem as indicated by your post.

I suspect one of three problems.

1. Your turntable is not properly grounded to your receiver.

2. You are getting acoustic feedback.

3. A problem with the wiring of your turntable has occurred causing this problem. This is not uncommon with older turntables. The cartridge may have a fault, but unless there is evidence of physical damage this is unlikely.

Proper and thorough fault finding is required before buying a new cartridge. I feel you will still have this problem if you change cartridges.

This turntable/cartridge combo should not be causing this problem.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why 4 speakers on a "stereo" setup? Are you running true Quad Sound? If not, then go to 2 speakers.

And, have you already purchased the sub? You could likely do better for the $.

As far as carts, the Ortofon 2M Red and the AT M97xe are generally the best "cheap" carts that you can find, need to spend significantly more for an improvement.

And, your old cart--Is it a MM or a MC? What model is it? What's it's output?

FWIW the M97xE is a Shure cart, not Audio Technica....

Could be a phantom center surround sound setup, too....

 

[slipperybidness]

FWIW the M97xE is a Shure cart, not Audio Technica....

Could be a phantom center surround sound setup, too....

Yeah, good catch on my mistake! I made an edit on my original post.

 

[Phillips]

Hey folks in answer to several thoughts:

Phono pre-amp was going into the VCR, and I just tried the phono into the phono input, without much loss of volume, so I just took the pre-amp out of the system-maybe less source of hum.

I googled and checked the cartridge wiring, and this seems to be correct.
I rechecked the ground wire from the phono to the received.

Here are results, my volume reads from -50 to positive 13.
Playing a new LP, at volume -10 it is just a bit below a sitting position, long term listening level. I could have a conversation with you in the seat beside me. Hum is noticeable at -10 between tracks. At +10 thru +13 the hums is very loud [when the needle has been raised] .

Playing McMurtrys Candyland at -10 on the CD player it is unpleasantly loud, no conversation, but also ... no hum. With CD player on, and not playing, I get a tiny bit of hum at +10 thru +13, but at this volume it would hurt my ears and probably damage my speakers.

So, not sure how to proceed.
I will take the advice above and try to see if the turntable wiring is the problem. I wil take the turntable to a local audio store to check the output and the hum, and based on these results move to the next option, a new cartridge.
Any additional thoughts welcome. Thank you all for your suggestions.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey folks in answer to several thoughts:

Phono pre-amp was going into the VCR, and I just tried the phono into the phono input, without much loss of volume, so I just took the pre-amp out of the system-maybe less source of hum.

I googled and checked the cartridge wiring, and this seems to be correct.
I rechecked the ground wire from the phono to the received.

Here are results, my volume reads from -50 to positive 13.
Playing a new LP, at volume -10 it is just a bit below a sitting position, long term listening level. I could have a conversation with you in the seat beside me. Hum is noticeable at -10 between tracks. At +10 thru +13 the hums is very loud [when the needle has been raised] .

Playing McMurtrys Candyland at -10 on the CD player it is unpleasantly loud, no conversation, but also ... no hum. With CD player on, and not playing, I get a tiny bit of hum at +10 thru +13, but at this volume it would hurt my ears and probably damage my speakers.

So, not sure how to proceed.
I will take the advice above and try to see if the turntable wiring is the problem. I wil take the turntable to a local audio store to check the output and the hum, and based on these results move to the next option, a new cartridge.
Any additional thoughts welcome. Thank you all for your suggestions.

I was not familiar with that turntable. It is almost certainly the problem. It is early 70s vintage. It is not direct drive, but the motor is driven by an oscillating servo circuit, with electronic speed control. Unfortunately this is not a fully manual turntable and there is a lot of complex switching in the connection from the cartridge to your receiver. There are enormous possibilities for major problems. At that date this technology was in its infancy and turntables of this date from that period are very trouble prone. This one I have found is no exception.

There were few sold and most in Europe. This is not the sort of thing the average local electronic shop is going to fix.
Your last post leads me to suspect that the power supply has excess electromagnetic radiation that is being picked up by the cartridge. Your problem is very unlikely indeed to be a cartridge problem.

The bottom line is that more likely than not restoring your turntable is going to be expensive and a labor of love.

In your situation since you are not technically inclined, my advice to you is this.

Put the turntable up for sale on eBay for parts or repair. Do not destroy it. There will be an enthusiast for this unit who has the interest and ability to restore it, or cannibalize it to restore one he already has.

I think you will be able to buy a good new or used belt drive turntable for less money than trying to restore that one. That would be assuming you can find someone in the US to take the job on. Most enthusiasts not surprisingly are in Holland.

I have found out that the aging power supply caps are one cause of excess AC radiation from the power supply. However at this time to get good service from that turntable it is time for a thorough restoration of everything if you want good service from it.

This chap has taken one on.

 

[Phillips]

Wow, you folks seem to be incredibly knowledgeable and willing to share your suggestions. Many thanks.

I looked briefly at Amazon for turntables and did not know what I was looking at, so I will first now look at this site for recommendations, and I may indeed just replace it. If I do, I will learn eBay and just sell it and the very old Sansui power amp stuck away in a closet.

Thanks, TSL Guy

 

[KEW]

Phillips,

What is your old Sansui Power amp? Is it an integrated or separate? You should pop the top and look at it. Likely, there is an amber/brown residue and corrosion around the bottoms of the capacitors. Check this photo at the bottom of the black cylinders for what to look for (BTW, this AU-717 still worked and sounded very nice, despite the leakage/corrosion; however, I'm sure it would have revealed weakness if pushed hard):

They made some very capable amps back in the 70's and early 80's; but took a nose-dive in quality thereafter. Look up your amp on ebay and see what the history is on it (make sure the amps were functional as many are inoperative and sold for parts, with a significant depreciation in value).

I don't know turntables anymore (I still have my Thorens from the early '80's), but ask for suggestions and state your budget. I would think you could retain your Grado cartridge and save money, it sounds as if it is in good condition.

 

[TLS Guy]

Phillips,

What is your old Sansui Power amp? Is it an integrated or separate? You should pop the top and look at it. Likely, there is an amber/brown residue and corrosion around the bottoms of the capacitors. Check this photo at the bottom of the black cylinders for what to look for (BTW, this AU-717 still worked and sounded very nice, despite the leakage/corrosion; however, I'm sure it would have revealed weakness if pushed hard):

They made some very capable amps back in the 70's and early 80's; but took a nose-dive in quality thereafter. Look up your amp on ebay and see what the history is on it (make sure the amps were functional as many are inoperative and sold for parts, with a significant depreciation in value).

I don't know turntables anymore (I still have my Thorens from the early '80's), but ask for suggestions and state your budget. I would think you could retain your Grado cartridge and save money, it sounds as if it is in good condition.

He has a newer Denon AVR. The cap problem if there is one will be in the power supply of the turntable. If there is a cap problem I doubt his issues will end there.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow, you folks seem to be incredibly knowledgeable and willing to share your suggestions. Many thanks.

I looked briefly at Amazon for turntables and did not know what I was looking at, so I will first now look at this site for recommendations, and I may indeed just replace it. If I do, I will learn eBay and just sell it and the very old Sansui power amp stuck away in a closet.

Thanks, TSL Guy

The best source for turntables is Needle Doctor. Take a look at his budget line. I strongly advise you to avoid automatic turntables and only consider fully manual ones. I would recommend something from the project line.

When I get a chance I will scout around eBay.

 

[KEW]

He has a newer Denon AVR. The cap problem if there is one will be in the power supply of the turntable. If there is a cap problem I doubt his issues will end there.

I was commenting on the Sansui he has in his closet:

...and I may indeed just replace it. If I do, I will learn eBay and just sell it and the very old Sansui power amp stuck away in a closet.

Thanks, TSL Guy

This was a common issue with the Sansui's from this period; however, there are still plenty of people who are willing to pay a good price for a working unit and clean replace these capacitors!

 

[TLS Guy]

It is your lucky day.

There is this very nice turntable on eBay at a very good price. It won't be around long.

 

[lovinthehd]

I doubt its the turntable causing a low level, its simply typical of phono cartridges to have lower output. Just search the subject, it's relatively common. I doubt its the tt itself, you might try a different cartridge. Try raising the input source level adjustment in the avr if you have such an adjustment (what I do to make it more in line with other input source levels in my Denon). Curious what the shop find for causes of hum, may need to try a different ground.

 

[afterlife2]

Give the cartridges we suggested a go If it does not make a difference you can always get a refund from amazon anyway...